MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by dbr »

FAN wrote:Umm... watch Canucks games? GAA, SV%, Win% and it's not even close? This year Schneider played more, much better numbers. Last season, Schneider played less, much better numbers (12 less games). Sure Schneider didn't play as many games, but backups don't tend to have much better numbers than starters unless the sample size is very very small.

I would say that Luongo's numbers are affected by the bad games he tends to have, but I'm not going to excuse him for his meltdowns.
Yeah but if you take away Cory's five shutouts his stats are terrible. :lol:

In seriousness I don't think Luongo's "meltdowns" this past season were games where he should wear the goat horns. Topper put it better (and briefer) already but now I've gone and pulled up Excel so you'll just have to put up with some light number crunching.

In this specific season the entire team was brutal in the 8-3 loss to the Red Wings and the Edmonton loss was him playing behind an AHL lineup (no first line, Ballard/Barker/Corrado/Alberts/Joslin combined for about 100 minutes, Lapierre on for 18 minutes, Ebbett for 17, etc).

If you take out each players worst two starts their stat lines are

Luongo 16 GS, 9-4-3 (.656%), 2.01 GA/60, 0.925 SV%, 2 SO
Schneider 28 GS, 17-7-4 (.678%), 1.86 GA/60, 0.935 SV%, 5 SO

The other thing is that their roles were clearly different last year, twice Luongo went in when Schneider had a bad start and while better than Cory statistically in the game, still took a hit on his own numbers; when Luongo had a bad start he was left in for the full 60.

Take out Roberto's relief appearances and there is even less to separate the two: 1.94 GA/60, 0.929 SV%.

Anyway this is all nearly completely pointless since the sample size for each goaltender - but particularly for Luongo - is miniscule. But my point is that if you're willing to engage in the same kind of mental mathematics to Luongo's credit that you were willing to use to discredit Tortorella, his numbers aren't bad at all.
Topper wrote:Every incidence of Lou being bombed, there may have been one or two he should have had, but the bulk of the performance was poor play in front of him. Game 6 Boston, Kesler couldn't back check if his life depended upon it and was the goat on at least two (yes I know he was injured). It is the same for nearly every 7uon8o performance.

Thing is, Lou gets one or two past him because of poor play in front of him and he doesn't pull a rabbit out of his hat and stop the carnage. Instead he collapses.
He's like the anti-Fuhr. Hopefully the coaching staff recognizes that he isn't going to be singlehandedly winning games and has the team playing the right way to complement his still considerable talent.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by ukcanuck »

FAN wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:
FAN wrote: Umm... watch Canucks games? GAA, SV%, Win% and it's not even close? This year Schneider played more, much better numbers. Last season, Schneider played less, much better numbers (12 less games). Sure Schneider didn't play as many games, but backups don't tend to have much better numbers than starters unless the sample size is very very small.

I would say that Luongo's numbers are affected by the bad games he tends to have, but I'm not going to excuse him for his meltdowns.
What's with condescension there bucko? Just cause you're wrong doesn't mean you gotta get flippant.
Those numbers what do they really mean anyway? Just this past season I seem to recall luongo having awesome numbers early on and people murmering that schneider wasnt responding so well to the transition to starter. Then the team folded in front of luongo and he was hung out to dry for 8 goals against Detroit. AV left him in to get lit up (probably to protect Cory's psyche) luongo's GAA went south and the next game Cory went on a bit if a roll and luongo hardly saw the net again till the playoffs where he deserved that game three start...

See, I watched the games.
Lol. What the fuck are you talking about? You're one sensitive dude if you think that was condescension. I thought it's pretty easy to see why someone would think that Schneider outplayed Luongo even if you don't agree with it.

What do those numbers mean? GAA = Goals Against Average, SV% = Save Percentage, Win% = Percentage of games starts that results in a Win vs a Loss (something like that). GAA, SV%, and Wins (or Win%) are commonly used to evaluate a goaltender's effectiveness and ability. ; :lol: I'll let someone else explain more about what those numbers mean if you don't get it.
clearly your sarcameter is broken...we have a doc can fix that for you :)
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by ukcanuck »

Topper wrote:Every incidence of Lou being bombed, there may have been one or two he should have had, but the bulk of the performance was poor play in front of him. Game 6 Boston, Kesler couldn't back check if his life depended upon it and was the goat on at least two (yes I know he was injured). It is the same for nearly every 7uon8o performance.

Thing is, Lou gets one or two past him because of poor play in front of him and he doesn't pull a rabbit out of his hat and stop the carnage. Instead he collapses.
I guess the hope is that that tendency has changed.

My impression has always been that in addition to being an emotional Italian, Luo is a bit of a primadonna. The golden boy who was used to being the centre of attention and the go to guy and maybe quit when he wasn't getting supported by his players in front of him.

However, this recent experience of being usurped by Schneider and rejected by the entire league twice ought to have poked a huge hole in that self narrative he came with from Florida.

Toss in the public perception change from the Boston series to the image of him riding that golf cart on that TSN commercial and maybe humility will be his new calling card.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by ORCA »

Hockey Widow wrote: The only thing I would worry about is if Lack turns out to be the real deal and we get to do this all over again in 3-4 years.
^This.

This is precisely the reason for this trade that people have dodged over and over again.

There are goalies all over the league who's cap hit is equal or greater than Luongo. Christ, Bobrovski just signed a 2 year extension at 5.625M per. The cap hit is a temporary concern right now (like it was last time) because of the 1-2 year squeeze under the new CBA. Nobody wants to stomach the ~6.8M in Salary that Luongo gets until 2017-18 for a 5.3M cap hit, because it doesn't even out on the ice (unless he goes turbo and has consecutive career seasons).

In 3-4 years, this won't happen again, because the cap will be significantly higher than it was last year. It won't happen because Luongo will still be fit as a fiddle, and he will still be a top goaltender in the league. Dominant? Maybe not, but I'd bet more teams would have him than would not. Ironically, Vancouver will get more for him at 37-38 than they would have (even in a real goalie market) this year. Poor teams (cap floor challenged) will gladly soak up that cap hit for a discounted salary post 2018. Furthermore, if Vancouver decided to unload Luongo a couple seasons before his salary heavy years were over, they could always stipulate that they'd pay the difference (1.6M or whatever) in salary until the Cap and Salary obligation were equal.

What a weird world hockey is... Among the myriad conversation possibilities, we are having this one. And to think, depending on who you listened to, there was serious discussion years ago after missing the playoffs that we might send Luongo to Tampa Bay in 2008 for their #1 pick...

I wonder what we'll be talking about in 4 more years :)
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Meds »

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
ukcanuck wrote: Luongo has won 6 playoff series for the Canucks as starter
Cory is 1-5 in playoff starts

Luongo is also 0-6 in his last 6 playoff starts.

You're talking about Cory's first ever playoff starts. Lu's came with a shitload of experience. Not to mention with 2 opportunities to win a Cup and at a start of a couple of 0-0 series openers. Cory's starts? His first ever comes after Lu blows 2 games hideously following a 3-0 series lead, in a loud hostile Chicago building..about the most intense pressure anyone can imagine. His other 5 starts come in similarly desperate situations when the team was down 0-2 in two series, one of which he was thrust in straight off an injury.

Are we seriously going to judge his playoff performance under those circumstances??
Luongo's first ever playoff series he stole from Dallas and carried an under performing Canucks team into the second round. He was amazing. He was equally as good against Anaheim in the second round, and his play was the only reason a few of us kept the candle of hope burning in that round.

If you look at Luongo's meltdowns in the playoffs, almost all of them start with him letting in a goal he should have had and then the team in front of him folds up like a cheap tent and he is completely hung out to dry.

In almost every game in which Luongo has been pulled he returns the following game and the other team wonders what the fuck did they just run into. In every game where he has been lit up and left in he struggles for a few games to regain his confidence. As a related aside, this was one more reason why I think Vigneault needed to go and why he was a big reason Lou was so ready to move on.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Vader »

ORCA wrote:
I wonder what we'll be talking about in 4 more years :)
1. Bertuzzi / Moore
2. Should Pavel have his # retired?
3. Were the Sedin's true first Liner's?
4. Should AV have used his timeout in the 2007 playoffs
5. Do Linden, Smyl and Naslund deserve to have their #'s retired
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Strangelove »

Mëds wrote: ... this was one more reason why I think Vigneault needed to go and why he was a big reason Lou was so ready to move on.
Agreed.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Nuckertuzzi »

Mëds wrote: Luongo's first ever playoff series he stole from Dallas and carried an under performing Canucks team into the second round. He was amazing. He was equally as good against Anaheim in the second round, and his play was the only reason a few of us kept the candle of hope burning in that round.
I loved that Lu. While I'm a critic of Lu, I'm also a big fan of that Lu, the regular season Lu and the Olympics Gold Medal winning Lu. The thing is while the Stanley Cup isn't the only reason I'm in this, or I would've wasted the past 30+ years of my life, it's still a pretty massive reason and one of the biggest reasons we haven't won it yet is the meltdown version of Lu (to be fair not the ONLY reason but one of the biggest) and that is why I'm such a critic. His meltdowns cost us a Cup and other opportunities for one and I can't let that go.
Mëds wrote: If you look at Luongo's meltdowns in the playoffs, almost all of them start with him letting in a goal he should have had and then the team in front of him folds up like a cheap tent and he is completely hung out to dry.
More like he let in goal he should've had, then let in another he should've had, and another. While the team in front is stunned to the point of losing their game. For a machine to work all the parts need to work. When the biggest part isn't working it's damn near impossible for the other parts to keep the machine going.
Mëds wrote: In almost every game in which Luongo has been pulled he returns the following game and the other team wonders what the fuck did they just run into. In every game where he has been lit up and left in he struggles for a few games to regain his confidence. As a related aside, this was one more reason why I think Vigneault needed to go and why he was a big reason Lou was so ready to move on.
It's still pretty clear in my memory bank when Lu in game 3 of the Cup Finals, after being shelled for 4 goals, told AV at the bench "don't you dare pull me" to which he got his wish and rewarded the coach with another 4 softies.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Meds »

Nuckertuzzi wrote: More like he let in goal he should've had, then let in another he should've had, and another. While the team in front is stunned to the point of losing their game. For a machine to work all the parts need to work. When the biggest part isn't working it's damn near impossible for the other parts to keep the machine going.
I agree on the need for all the parts to be working for the machine.....

There have been 2 games, one in Boston, well probably 2 in Boston, and one in Chicago, where the team was playing that stunned hockey. The first goal is always the softy, and it totally colours the lenses we view the next few through. Regardless, after that first soft goal there were a few he could have had, and certainly we think he should have had if for no other reason than to redeem himself for the first one, but nonetheless, the following goals have almost always been on golden looks at the net for an opposing shooter as the Canucks chased their tails. After watching the games the team put in in front of Lou in games 1 and 2 against LA in 2012, and again this year against the Sharks.....the issue was certainly not Luongo. There was something else at play.....maybe whatever Edler has is contagious. :P
Nuckertuzzi wrote: It's still pretty clear in my memory bank when Lu in game 3 of the Cup Finals, after being shelled for 4 goals, told AV at the bench "don't you dare pull me" to which he got his wish and rewarded the coach with another 4 softies.
What NHL goaltender doesn't respond like that when the coach is waffling about whether or not to replace him? That's why the coach is the coach, he's supposed to call the shots. This was a classic example of why Gillis should have sent Vigneault packing then and there (after game 7 I mean). The inmates were clearly running the asylum and Vigneault was OK with that.

I think Luongo is going to be a VERY different goaltender under John Tortorella.....the whole team is going to be different for that matter.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Zedlee »

Mëds wrote:
Nuckertuzzi wrote:
I think Luongo is going to be a VERY different goaltender under John Tortorella.....the whole team is going to be different for that matter.
This.

New coach and a fresh start for Roberto and all the players. I expect Lu to show up and play his heart out for his coach, teammates and fans. Who cares what Gillis thinks? He just has to play hard and collect his fat paycheck.

My concern is what if RL loses his edge and his skills diminish? Or has another playoff meltdown? wtf do we do then?
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by herb »

Zedlee wrote:My concern is what if RL loses his edge and his skills diminish? Or has another playoff meltdown? wtf do we do then?
I believe the new saying is "Clear the track, here comes Lack!"

Right Strange? :lol:

Seriously though, after this season, there’s only four more seasons of big dollar money left in Luongo’s contract. I’m sure the hope is that one of Lack, Cannata or Eriksson will become a starting NHL goaltender. As Lack, for example, is groomed into an NHL starter, time passes on Luongo’s contract which means less money is owed which makes trading him easier or buying him out more palatable.

In three or four years, when the cap is at $80+M, we’ll care a lot less if Luongo is a $5.3M back-up goaltender too.

If we get into the playoffs in 2014, and if Luongo has another greasy Italian meltdown, then we better hope to hell Lack has played against some good NHL competition and he is capable of taking the reigns.
Last edited by herb on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by vic »

Nuckertuzzi wrote: His meltdowns cost us a Cup and other opportunities for one and I can't let that go.
The team only scoring 8 goals (2PP GOALS and ZERO in the 7th game AT HOME) had nothing to do with costing the team a cup.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by Strangelove »

herb wrote:
Zedlee wrote: My concern is what if RL loses his edge and his skills diminish? Or has another playoff meltdown? wtf do we do then?
I believe the new saying is "Clear the track, here comes Lack!"

Right Strange? :lol:
:thumbs:
herb wrote: Seriously though, after this season, there’s only four more seasons of big dollar money left in Luongo’s contract. I’m sure the hope is that one of Lack, Cannata or Eriksson will become starting NHL goaltenders. As Lack, for example, is groomed into an NHL starter, time passes on Luongo’s contract which means less money is owed which makes trading him easier or buying him out more palatable.
Exactly.
herb wrote: In three or four years, when the cap is at $80+M, we’ll care a lot less if Luongo is a $5.3M back-up goaltender too.
I'll bet it's $90+mil by then.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by ORCA »

vic wrote:
Nuckertuzzi wrote: His meltdowns cost us a Cup and other opportunities for one and I can't let that go.
The team only scoring 8 goals (2PP GOALS and ZERO in the 7th game AT HOME) had nothing to do with costing the team a cup.
Shhh... you'll mess people up with this logic stuff.
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Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Post by ORCA »

Strangelove wrote: I'll bet it's $90+mil by then.
I hoep it doesn't get that high.

The talent pool isn't inflating with that pace. Mediocre players in the right circumstance will command 5-6 million just to continue being mediocre :(

I get that its all relative... There's another thread saying how terribad Crappiere wanting 3M is... under a 90M cap he'd get 4 easily. ick.
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