Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby BurningBeard » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:40 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Kesler turned out to be a better player than Hodgson but was much less highly touted. Kess totally overachieved what scouts, media and fans thought he would turn out to be, which wasa third-line center. Hodgson was the top scorer at the most elite Junior tournament in the world and a 10th overall pick... his projection was a very good second-line center (which he is becoming).

I'd love to hear who you guys think were bigger blue-chippers than Hodgson and Cory.

I see Topper is still bitter that a player he insisted didn't have NHL-level talent is scoring at a PPG pace. :lol:

Okay, so what exactly are we talking about here? Who's a better player or who had more potential when they were drafted? Because Schneider wasn't even the top ranked American goalie available when he got drafted, and he was the 4th goalie drafted overall in 2004. His projection was questionable even after he started for the US at the WJHC. I wouldn't describe him as a "blue chip" prospect when he got drafted anymore then Kesler was.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:53 pm

I'm talking about their projection and value as a prospect, from the day they were drafted to their first season in the NHL. The lack of players you've listed as more highly-regarded prospects speaks volumes.

Even beyond that; did we have a better forward prospect in our system than Hodgson the day we traded him?

Jesus, Cory was our fucking MVP last year on a team with Hank, Danny , Kesler and Lou. Before that he was the best goaltender in the AHL. I'd say he panned out pretty good. :roll: I can't believe you're arguing that we've traded our two most promising young players away.

And Topper, nobody argued Cody's defensive game sucked, it was your stubborn refusal to acknowledge his offensive skills which so many of us found hilarious. Tell me, are the Sedins also useless in your world because they suck at D? Because I wouldn't be surprised if Hodgson is outscoring them a season from now.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby BurningBeard » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:44 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:I'm talking about their projection and value as a prospect, from the day they were drafted to their first season in the NHL. The lack of players you've listed as more highly-regarded prospects speaks volumes.

Even beyond that; did we have a better forward prospect in our system than Hodgson the day we traded him?

Jesus, Cory was our fucking MVP last year on a team with Hank, Danny , Kesler and Lou. Before that he was the best goaltender in the AHL. I'd say he panned out pretty good. :roll: I can't believe you're arguing that we've traded our two most promising young players away.


I don't even know what argument you're trying to make anymore. You called them the "best two prospects since the Sedins". Then you tried to say you were talking about how highly touted they were when they were drafted. Cory's projected value, when he was drafted, wasn't great. I'd list the goalies who were more highly regarded in 2004, but who the hell remembers Al Montoya? You want to know someone who the Canucks drafted who had higher value when they were drafted? Luc Bourdon and R.J. Umberger. It's like you're saying Kesler wasn't a better prospect because by the time he won a Selke he wasn't a prospect anymore. If you're going to pick points in time when these guys were "prospects" you don't get to use Cory's MVP season from last year as an argument.

All I'm saying is Cody and Cory are not the two best draft picks (prospects) the Canucks have made since Hank and Dank. You can argue Cory is one of the best, and easily top three, but including Cody with him is a joke. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:57 pm

BurningBeard wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:I'm talking about their projection and value as a prospect, from the day they were drafted to their first season in the NHL. The lack of players you've listed as more highly-regarded prospects speaks volumes.

Even beyond that; did we have a better forward prospect in our system than Hodgson the day we traded him?

Jesus, Cory was our fucking MVP last year on a team with Hank, Danny , Kesler and Lou. Before that he was the best goaltender in the AHL. I'd say he panned out pretty good. :roll: I can't believe you're arguing that we've traded our two most promising young players away.


I don't even know what argument you're trying to make anymore. You called them the "best two prospects since the Sedins". Then you tried to say you were talking about how highly touted they were when they were drafted. Cory's projected value, when he was drafted, wasn't great. I'd list the goalies who were more highly regarded in 2004, but who the hell remembers Al Montoya? You want to know someone who the Canucks drafted who had higher value when they were drafted? Luc Bourdon and R.J. Umberger. It's like you're saying Kesler wasn't a better prospect because by the time he won a Selke he wasn't a prospect anymore. If you're going to pick points in time when these guys were "prospects" you don't get to use Cory's MVP season from last year as an argument.

All I'm saying is Cody and Cory are not the two best draft picks (prospects) the Canucks have made since Hank and Dank. You can argue Cory is one of the best, and easily top three, but including Cody with him is a joke. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Typically a player stops becoming a prospect once he's played a successful season in the NHL and makes the team full time. So yes, obviously Kesler wasn't a prospect anymore when he won the Selke.

Kesler was a late first-round pick with nowhere near the hype behind him that Cody had. Kesler wasn't even much of a presence on the ice until 2009. He had a couple of amazing seasons that totally exceeded even the most optimistic projections but he was a late bloomer.

Bourdon was a highly-touted prospect but he never put it together in the NHL, hence Cody being the more valuable player at the time of his trading. Saying Umberger was believed to be a better player than Hodgson is pretty retarded. I remember both of their draft years and I can assure you he wasn't. Kesler and arguably Edler are really the only players we've developed in the last decade who are better than Cody right now...

As for Schneider, he was still considered a prospect until last season, and his value was pretty fucking high then too.

Anyway, this whole discussion is pretty pointless since you don't seem to understand what constitutes the span of of being a "prospect" and want to argue semantics -- instead of just acknowledging we traded away the two best young players in the organization in the last year and a half.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby BurningBeard » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:27 am

Rumsfeld wrote:Anyway, this whole discussion is pretty pointless since you don't seem to understand what constitutes the span of of being a "prospect" and want to argue semantics -- instead of just acknowledging we traded away the two best young players in the organization in the last year and a half.

Oh no, I can easily acknowledge that. You should have said that in the first place.

Just curious, what's with your handle? :mrgreen:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Tiger » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:40 am

Rumsfeld wrote:
we traded away the two best young players in the organization in the last year and a half.

This !

and got back 1 guy that can't stay in the line up and a prospect ( 9th pick overall ) . Lovely just F*ng lovely ..
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Topper » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:36 am

Rummy, the new Dude Dummy.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby coco_canuck » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:50 am

Beware of the short-season sample size. Cody had a hot start in the defensively porous Eastern conference coming out of a lockout and then only put up 13 points in his final 24 games.

I went from being fairly high on Cody to suggesting the Canucks should trade him before they did, mainly because he's shit in his own end and he seems like a player who will have trouble in tight checking, shut-down games where big opponents grind the game in the corners and the front of the net.

This past year I caught a few Sabres games to see how Cody has progressed, I'm pretty sure I posted about it as well, and while Cody was producing points with increased minutes across the board his defensive game has not improved much at all.


It's funny that how some are so sad to see a softish, smallish and defensively poor forward leave when they continually moan about how soft this current Canucks team is.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:10 am

Topper wrote:Rummy, the new Dude Dummy.


Right Topper, I'm the dummy. This from a guy who insisted that Hodgson should have been playing in the AHL in favor of Andrew Ebbett last year. :lol:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:14 am

coco_canuck wrote:
It's funny that how some are so sad to see a softish, smallish and defensively poor forward leave when they continually moan about how soft this current Canucks team is.


Well gee, I guess if we had a choice we'd take a big skilled center with some jam.

But as if we couldn't have used Cody in the playoffs last year when Roy was invisible and the Canucks generated zero offense. The kid can shoot the puck, which with the exception of Kesler is a rare commodity up front for your Vancouver Canucks.

Roy was softer and less skilled than Hodgson and we gave up a good pick for him... so it's not like moving Hodgson made us bigger down the middle. So far all it's given us is a fourth liner with no defensive game to add to our offensive arsenal. :wink:

For the record I love the player Kassian COULD turn into... but the player he is right now looks pretty awful compared to the guy we gave away for him.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby KeyserSoze » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:22 am

Rumsfeld wrote:But as if we couldn't have used Cody in the playoffs last year when Roy was invisible and the Canucks generated zero offense.

In the hopes to force a 5th game?

NoCoHo in that series was not the problem.

Rumsfeld wrote:For the record I love the player Kassian COULD turn into... but the player he is right now looks pretty awful compared to the guy we gave away for him.

To me, that COULD is a risk worth taking...especially when you take into account the Daddy factor with Hodgson. If anything, it was a bad draft pick by Gillis, not a bad trade.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:29 am

KeyserSoze wrote:NoCoHo in that series was not the problem.


How do we know that? We lost three of those games by one goal, two of them in OT. How can you say that a PPG player with a laser-beam wrist shot couldn't have helped us?

I'm not a huge Hodgson fan but you guys are ridiculous. :lol:

Not being able to score in that series WAS a problem. Hodgson can score. Therefore he would have probably helped us. It's not like he would have been any shittier defensively than Roy turned out to be.

To me, that COULD is a risk worth taking...especially when you take into account the Daddy factor with Hodgson. If anything, it was a bad draft pick by Gillis, not a bad trade.


Wow, so trading a kid who is clearly an NHL top-sixer for a kid who may or may not even be NHL-worthy a year and a half later is a good trade?

We couldn't have done better than that, huh. OK. :roll:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:43 am

When was Hodgson going to score though? He'd have to get icetime and his almost complete lack of defensive prowess would have kept him off the ice under AV in any important situation. he's be a 5 minute a night guy with maybe some PP time thrown in under AV in the playoffs. Yes he can put up points....the problem is he does so for both teams. And one can say well the problem would be AV and perhaps that is true but it is also the reality of the situation. Hodgson could only help the team if he is on the ice to do so and I have a very hard time believing he would get icetime under AV. if he was still a canuck he would still be struggling to get icetime because of his defensive deficiencies.

That and he actually wasn't even close to a PPG despite all the prime icetime he had this year.

I suspect that within the next 12-24 months Hodgson is also going to be in a heck of a battle to retain a place as one of the top 2 centers with the Sabres unless he makes some pretty substantial improvements to his defensive game. Like it or not just about any coach is going to look at Grigorenko (6'3" 200+lbs) and Girgensons (6'3" 200lbs) and want to develop them as the top couple of centers. The Sabres also acquired Larsson (center, turns 21 this week) for Pominville and he has a a strong SEL seasons under his belt and a year adjusting to North American hockey. Hodgson certainly has talent but he needs to develop his defensive game a significant degree to be an impact player on an impact team. He may also need to drop the dog and pony show that is his Dad and Ritch Winter as well.
Last edited by tantalum on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:50 am

tantalum wrote:When was Hodgson going to score though? He'd have to get icetime and his almost complete lack of defensive prowess would have kept him off the ice under AV in any important situation. he's be a 5 minute a night guy with maybe some PP time thrown in under AV in the playoffs. Yes he can put up points....the problem is he does so for both teams. And one can say well the problem would be AV and perhaps that is true but it is also the reality of the situation. Hodgson could only help the team if he is on the ice to do so and I have a very hard time believing he would get icetime under AV. if he was still a canuck he would still be struggling to get icetime because of his defensive deficiencies.

That and he actually wasn't even close to a PPG despite all the prime icetime he had this year.


Andrew Ebbett was our third-line center last year.

Andrew.

Ebbett.

I think he'd be playing a lot more than that guy.

It's funny how all of you guys who've decided Cody's not very good now that he's not a Canuck love Henrik Sedin so much. They've very similar players really.... with very similar shortcomings.

Slow, shitty defensively, not physical. Both liabilities in their own end. Both good stickhandlers, Sedin a better passer, Cody better shooter. Obviously Cody is never going to hit the heights the Sedins did but to hate one and love the other is pretty amusing.

Can't wait 'till Kesler gets traded, then we can all talk about how much he sucked too.

EDIT: My bad on the point totals, I thought Cody had over 40 last year.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby $lacker » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:52 am

We have heard time and time again from different GM's around the league that it is very difficult to find big players with skill. IF Zack Kassian pans out then quite simply that kind of player would be virtually unattainable in the trade market. Gillis had a problem with Cody and visa versa and Zack was deemed to be one of the players worth giving up on Cody for. I was a big Cody fan and was choked to see him go but I understand the move.

Would it be nice to have a 3rd line center with Cody's offensive skill? Of course. But as we all know, Cody's game isn't suited to the third line and so here we are today with Zack Kassian and no third line center :)
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