Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Meds » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:11 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:It was painfully obvious who the better goaltender was throughout the season last year. Schneider looked faster, better positioned, and way more efficient coming across the net. His legs are probably twice as quick as Lou's going into tthe butterfly and he can actually stay upright when he kicks out a low shot due to his superior strength.


It's not a strength issue so much as it is a physiology and flexibility issue. Lou is "bow-legged", Cory is not. For Lou to actually go into the butterfly and get his pads to rotate out along the ice is next to impossible without him falling forward. What's remarkable is how good he actually is despite this disadvantage.

Rummy wrote:You guys act like there's no difference beteen Cory and Lou, but there is actually a considerable gap between them. And guess what? That gap is only going to get exponentially WIDER as Cory continues to improve and Lou continues to decline. I would way rather be paying a truly elite Cory 6 mill in two years than an average-at-best Luongo 5.3 in four years.


Still waiting to see what this incredible gap is. How about we wait and compare them after they have both played a full season.

Rummy wrote:Cory was so remarkably good that he firmly supplanted an elite goalie with a lifetime contract by simply being so much better that our coach and GM had no choice but to admit he was the man. The original plan was to keep Lou and develop and trade Cory, but his awesomeness forced them to change that plan and shop Luongo. Now suddenly the CC Bountifulites want to claim Cory only won the starter job because Lou wanted out, which is a total joke. Lou didn't want out until Cory took his fucking job.


After the 2011 SCF, Andrew Raycroft would have challenged for the starting role. Lou was emotionally up and down, the fans had completely turned on him, and now Mrs. Lou was spending almost all of her time in Florida (allegedly). Cory was in his second season as the full-time backup and his first season had been outstanding, he shared the Jennings with Lou. He fared little better than Luongo that year in the few playoff minutes he saw, and come 2012 everyone wanted Schneider in net because of "the meltdowns". So we saw Schneider 8 more times, and then he took the reigns in the playoffs despite the fact that everyone short of the Luonfreudeists could see that Louie had been the best player on the ice for Vancouver through games 1 and 2. You are right about that being when he wanted out. Cory in no way "stole the job" from Luongo. Vigneault just decided to give it to him.....and at this point every player decision that AV made doesn't really hold much weight.

Rummy wrote:It's the same bullshit this board pulled after the Hodgson trade. A kid you were all creaming your underoos about is suddenly not very good and we're lucky to be rid of him.


I think you exaggerate here. Schneider looked to be the real deal. No question. I think we all wanted him to stay, and I don't think anyone here would dispute that. This is plan B that we are seeing right now, but really it's not like plan B stands for "backup". :P Luongo is still a VERY good goaltender, actually he's still an elite goaltender in all likelihood. If anyone thinks that we would have been better off going the way we have gone even though Lou could have gotten us the same return.....they need psych exam.

Rummy wrote:And holy LOFL at you clowns who are blaming AV for Luongo's playoff suckage and think Torts is going to somehow hop in the crease himself and save the day. Wishful think much? Yeah AV should've yanked him earlier a couple times, but saying Luongo, at 35, is going to be a "much different goaltender" under Torts is flat-out styrofoam-helmet-on-the-bus retarded. What's he gonna do, yell at Lou to be "stiffer" in net? Christ, they'll be walking on eggshells around him for the next year or two.


I haven't seen that one yet. Someone actually thinks Torts is going to turn Luongo around? Pfffft.....better quote that.

Personally I do think that Torts might be able to turn around Luongo's attitude towards playing in Vancouver. I also think Tortorella can turn the team in front of Luongo into something a little more competitive and accountable. The only thing that might turn Lou's play around in all of this is his competitive drive and penchant for taking everything so damned personally.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:47 pm

Meds wrote:I haven't seen that one yet. Someone actually thinks Torts is going to turn Luongo around? Pfffft.....better quote that.


:lol:

Are you actually serious?

It was you.

I don't have time to sift through the crap but I believe your exact words were that "Luongo is going to be a very different goaltender under Torts". And it was clearly meant in a positive light.

So do pray elaborate on how Luongo is going to be a better goaltender under Torts, I'm dying to hear it. Unless it wasn't you in which case whatever. :mex:

If anyone thinks that we would have been better off going the way we have gone even though Lou could have gotten us the same return.....they need psych exam.


Yeah I don't know what those words mean. Are you in the middle of some kind of aneurysm? :crazy:

Should be interesting to revisit this blindly irrational Luongo love-in later in the season. Wonder if he'll have thrown any teammates under the bus by then...

The funny thing is that I was the biggest Luongo fan on this board the first few years he was a Canuck. My sig was his jersey and the words "it's about fucking time". I think you could have made a case for him being the best hockey player in the world after the 06/07 season. He is without a doubt the best goaltender we've ever had and did some great things for us and I thank him for that. But there is no doubt in my mind that Cory Schneider is a significantly better goaltender today, and will probably be one of the very best for quite some time.

Unlike some of you I cheer for the team and not the multi-millionaires wearing the jersey. Luongo has been a meltdown artist and an egomaniac and an idiot with the media. He's also been a shitty teammate although he certainly improved in that regard last season. Every GM and every hockey fan outside this city (and most inside it) seems to grasp the obvious fact that Luongo has a history of breaking badly in the playoffs. Hilariously, this board seems determined to put the blame everywhere else and STILL vastly overrate a 34-year old netminder despite the fact that even at a 5.3 million dollar cap hit the guy was UNTRADEABLE for over a calender year. His numbers last year weren't very good and they aren't IMO going to get any better.

It's fucking priceless, really. The guy would kill to get the fuck out of here and you kids are getting in line to blow him. But I'm done talking about Lou, there's really nothing left to say. Let's see how the season plays out and talk some more about it then.

Oh an BTW you're quite the goaltending expert there Meds, did you play some street hockey back in the day? Until you so adroitly broke down the game 6 Hawks OT winner in '11 for me I had no idea a goaltender must flop on his stomach in order to stop a low shot. Thanks for that, it's amazing every goalie isn't doing it.

It's not a strength issue so much as it is a physiology and flexibility issue. Lou is "bow-legged", Cory is not. For Lou to actually go into the butterfly and get his pads to rotate out along the ice is next to impossible without him falling forward.


Oh really doctor? :lol:

So Luongo falls on his face due to genetics and Schneider is clearly much quicker (any idiot can see that he is) but there is no difference between them in terms of ability?

And weren't you slagging the shit out of Luongo on the other site until you realized your opinion was unpopular? Yeah, pretty sure you were.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Meds » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:44 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Are you actually serious?

It was you.

I don't have time to sift through the crap but I believe your exact words were that "Luongo is going to be a very different goaltender under Torts". And it was clearly meant in a positive light.

So do pray elaborate on how Luongo is going to be a better goaltender under Torts, I'm dying to hear it. Unless it wasn't you in which case whatever. :mex:


I didn't mean he was suddenly going to be more skilled or something. I was referring to him welcoming the change of voice and accountability from behind the bench. Thought you meant someone said that Torts was going to make him better as in like a goalie coach.....


Rummy wrote:
Meds wrote:If anyone thinks that we would have been better off going the way we have gone even though Lou could have gotten us the same return.....they need psych exam.


Yeah I don't know what those words mean. Are you in the middle of some kind of aneurysm? :crazy:


If Gillis could have gotten Jersey's pick for Luongo but instead chose to deal Schneider and keep Lou.....if someone thinks that would have been smarter.....that someone needs their head read.

Rummy wrote:Should be interesting to revisit this blindly irrational Luongo love-in later in the season. Wonder if he'll have thrown any teammates under the bus by then...


Should be very interesting indeed.


Rummy wrote:Unlike some of you I cheer for the team and not the multi-millionaires wearing the jersey. Luongo has been a meltdown artist and an egomaniac and an idiot with the media. He's also been a shitty teammate although he certainly improved in that regard last season. Every GM and every hockey fan outside this city (and most inside it) seems to grasp the obvious fact that Luongo has a history of breaking badly in the playoffs. Hilariously, this board seems determined to put the blame everywhere else and STILL vastly overrate a 34-year old netminder despite the fact that even at a 5.3 million dollar cap hit the guy was UNTRADEABLE for over a calender year. His numbers last year weren't very good and they aren't IMO going to get any better.


Likewise.....on the cheering for the team and not the player. That being said, if the player is in the jersey, then generally I pull for them. Edler excepted.....although I do hope he finally hits his stride. His $5.3M cap hit was not what was untradeable, it was the length of the contract and all the recapture crap in the new CBA. Nobody is completely excusing Luongo. It was, and always has been, the team as a whole that shit the bed and collapsed.....Luongo included. But the lines in the sand get drawn and most people on here cherry pick lines from posts while ignoring the entirety of the opinion. So by the time it's gone back and forth for a bit you are down to opposing sides and all that.

Rummy wrote:It's fucking priceless, really. The guy would kill to get the fuck out of here and you kids are getting in line to blow him. But I'm done talking about Lou, there's really nothing left to say. Let's see how the season plays out and talk some more about it then.


Good plan.....saves you from looking like an ass-hat in several months. :look:

:P

Rummy wrote:Oh an BTW you're quite the goaltending expert there Meds, did you play some street hockey back in the day? Until you so adroitly broke down the game 6 Hawks OT winner in '11 for me I had no idea a goaltender must flop on his stomach in order to stop a low shot. Thanks for that, it's amazing every goalie isn't doing it.


Why thank you Rummy.

Rummy wrote:
It's not a strength issue so much as it is a physiology and flexibility issue. Lou is "bow-legged", Cory is not. For Lou to actually go into the butterfly and get his pads to rotate out along the ice is next to impossible without him falling forward.


Oh really doctor? :lol:


I would quote the source of that info if I could remember where it was.....some hockey article, on NHL.com I think, but I'm too lazy to go look it up again.

Rummy wrote:So Luongo falls on his face due to genetics and Schneider is clearly much quicker (any idiot can see that he is) but there is no difference between them in terms of ability?


Well I don't know.....Luongo has always played like this, and when he was Schneider's age he was facing an average of 31 shots per game behind an absolutely shit team, and his numbers were among the best in the league. Schneider is facing 28 shots per game and has been playing behind one of the best (on paper) teams in the NHL, his numbers are a little better than Luongo's were at 27, but how do you really compare the numbers of a backup playing on one of the best teams and a starter playing behind some of the worst teams in recent history....

Or did you mistype....did you mean to spell agility instead of ability?

Rummy wrote:And weren't you slagging the shit out of Luongo on the other site until you realized your opinion was unpopular? Yeah, pretty sure you were.


Yep. I was, but I slag the shit out of every multi-million dollar hockey player when he doesn't get the job done. Edler, Bieksa, Sedins, Kesler, Ohlund.....list goes on.

You do the same if memory serves.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Mr.Miyagi » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:35 am

I don't have the patience to filter through all of the posts but here is my two cents:

With either Schneider or Luongo we were going to be OK. I haven't commented on it at all because right from the beginning I have really believed that.

I think Torterella and his staff will change/modify the face and attitude of this team, thus directly or indirectly affecting our goaltending...which I believe will be just fine. Luongo is a big boy and it isn't his first rodeo. He has been a professional throughout the drama and will continue to be one.

He has retained the unquestionable no.1 spot again. It has been a couple years since the last time he could say that. Give the guy a chance and see what he does with it.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby BurningBeard » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:57 am

I think anyone who thinks we're better off with Lou then Schneider going forward is delusional, but that's not really the point, or even something worth arguing about. :mrgreen: The point is, the trade wasn't a commentary on who was the better goalie. It was a commentary on the fact that GMMG thought Lou and the number 9 pick was more valuable to the team then Cory and whatever table scraps he could get for Lou. It's that simple. It was a BOLD MOVE that could prove disastrous if Lou's game falls apart or goes into rapid decline.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Jovocop » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:08 am

BurningBeard wrote:I think anyone who thinks we're better off with Lou then Schneider going forward is delusional, but that's not really the point, or even something worth arguing about. :mrgreen: The point is, the trade wasn't a commentary on who was the better goalie. It was a commentary on the fact that GMMG thought Lou and the number 9 pick was more valuable to the team then Cory and whatever table scraps he could get for Lou. It's that simple. It was a BOLD MOVE that could prove disastrous if Lou's game falls apart or goes into rapid decline.


At times, I wonder whether the whole Luongo vs. Schneider rumour was MG's plot to get the most out of the Schneider's trade. The Canucks did pump up Hodgson's value by giving him all the chances to be successful before trading him.

After the lockout lifted, MG knew that he would have a tough time trading Luongo for a decent return. The best solution to solve the problem is to trade Schneider. Therefore, the Canucks pumped up his value by giving him more starts and creating an image that Schneider was the Canucks new No. 1. If other GMs offered something decent for Luongo, MG would take it. Else, the trading value for Schneider would increase due to the status change from 1b goalie or backup goalie to 1a goalie or starter. Again, this is only my conspiracy theory in the long summer... :lol:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:25 am

I know goaltenders don't usually get the best return on the trade market, but I think the #9 overall pick and nothing else is a bullshit return on a franchise goaltender with Cory's numbers and pedigree on an affordable contract. Gillis really fucked this whole thing up trying to flip our MVP at the last minute.

Horvat is by all accounts an excellent young player but he hasn't put up the kind of junior numbers that NHL first-liners traditionally do. His ceiling is probably as a good second line centre (which would be great) but I wouldn't be that surprised if he only pans out into a very good third line checking cente (disappointing). His highlight reels don't exactly scream high-end skill to me.

And of course all of this happens years from now, so it doesn't do anything to address our concerns this season... of which there are plenty. I like our prospect depth now but Canucks fans still don't seem to realie that it's very average if you look around the entire league. We should have been able to aquire at least another top prospect for a tender of Cory's caliber.

So Medster, I guess this means I'm not invited to your annual Down syndrome awareness BBQ? You were so good in the sack race last year. Remember to helmet up this time you little seat-chewer. :thumbs:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:29 am

Jovocop wrote:
BurningBeard wrote: The best solution to solve the problem is to trade Schneider. Therefore, the Canucks pumped up his value by giving him more starts and creating an image that Schneider was the Canucks new No. 1. If other GMs offered something decent for Luongo, MG would take it. Else, the trading value for Schneider would increase due to the status change from 1b goalie or backup goalie to 1a goalie or starter. Again, this is only my conspiracy theory in the long summer... :lol:


I truly hope nobody actually thinks this is what happened. Cory won the job by being the better goaltender. Revisionism might comfort some but it really does a disservice to how good Schneider was the past two seasons.

If only he'd had the chance to play a full playoff series from the start with a healthy groin. I think that kid has a big cup run in him, although that's gonna be pretty fucking tough with the Devils.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Jovocop » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:31 am

Rumsfeld wrote:Horvat is by all accounts an excellent young player but he hasn't put up the kind of junior numbers that NHL first-liners traditionally do. His ceiling is probably as a good second line centre (which would be great) but I wouldn't be that surprised if he only pans out into a very good third line checking cente (disappointing). His highlight reels don't exactly scream high-end skill to me.


It is funny how this description is similar to the one for Kesler, except people think that he was nothing more than a third line center...
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Jovocop » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:36 am

Rumsfeld wrote:
Jovocop wrote:The best solution to solve the problem is to trade Schneider. Therefore, the Canucks pumped up his value by giving him more starts and creating an image that Schneider was the Canucks new No. 1. If other GMs offered something decent for Luongo, MG would take it. Else, the trading value for Schneider would increase due to the status change from 1b goalie or backup goalie to 1a goalie or starter. Again, this is only my conspiracy theory in the long summer... :lol:


I truly hope nobody actually thinks this is what happened. Cory won the job by being the better goaltender. Revisionism might comfort some but it really does a disservice to how good Schneider was the past two seasons.

If only he'd had the chance to play a full playoff series from the start with a healthy groin. I think that kid has a big cup run in him, although that's gonna be pretty fucking tough with the Devils.


Schneider is a very good goalie, just like Hodgson is a very good prospect. I hate to lose Schneider as well but like BurningBeard mentioned earlier in the thread, "GMMG thought Lou and the number 9 pick was more valuable to the team then Cory and whatever table scraps he could get for Lou." If MG knew that he could only get scraps for Luongo, the only logical thing to do was to improve Schneider's trade value.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:36 am

Jovocop wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Horvat is by all accounts an excellent young player but he hasn't put up the kind of junior numbers that NHL first-liners traditionally do. His ceiling is probably as a good second line centre (which would be great) but I wouldn't be that surprised if he only pans out into a very good third line checking cente (disappointing). His highlight reels don't exactly scream high-end skill to me.


It is funny how this description is similar to the one for Kesler, except people think that he was nothing more than a third line center...


You realize how unusual Kesler's ascent to a first-line quality player was, don't you? Shall we start comparing our 5th rounder this year to Datsyuk and Zets?

Horvat will be good but if you're expecting a first-line center that scores a point a game I think you're going to be very disappointed.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Tciso » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:40 am

BurningBeard wrote:I think anyone who thinks we're better off with Lou then Schneider going forward is delusional, but that's not really the point, or even something worth arguing about. :mrgreen: The point is, the trade wasn't a commentary on who was the better goalie. It was a commentary on the fact that GMMG thought Lou and the number 9 pick was more valuable to the team then Cory and whatever table scraps he could get for Lou. It's that simple. It was a BOLD MOVE that could prove disastrous if Lou's game falls apart or goes into rapid decline.



And it will look great if CS pulls a Havlat, and fails to perform as the #1.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:42 am

Jovocop wrote:Schneider is a very good goalie, just like Hodgson is a very good prospect. I hate to lose Schneider as well but like BurningBeard mentioned earlier in the thread, "GMMG thought Lou and the number 9 pick was more valuable to the team then Cory and whatever table scraps he could get for Lou." If MG knew that he could only get scraps for Luongo, the only logical thing to do was to improve Schneider's trade value.


Firstly, Schneider is a much better goaltender than Hodgson was a prospect.

Secondly, the suggestion that MG somehow engineered this whole thing fromn the start by replacing Luongo with Schneider with the intention of trading Schneider is absolutely fucking ridiculous. If that were the case he wouldn't have waited until draft day and gotten such a shitty return. Not to mention the absurdity of the entire notion with regards to the GM deciding who's in net and the younger better goaltender totally outperforming Lou and yet being the one Gillis wants to trade.

I guess the Rockefellers took down the trade center as well.
Last edited by Rumsfeld on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Tciso » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:44 am

Rumsfeld wrote:
Jovocop wrote:
BurningBeard wrote: The best solution to solve the problem is to trade Schneider. Therefore, the Canucks pumped up his value by giving him more starts and creating an image that Schneider was the Canucks new No. 1. If other GMs offered something decent for Luongo, MG would take it. Else, the trading value for Schneider would increase due to the status change from 1b goalie or backup goalie to 1a goalie or starter. Again, this is only my conspiracy theory in the long summer... :lol:


I truly hope nobody actually thinks this is what happened. Cory won the job by being the better goaltender. Revisionism might comfort some but it really does a disservice to how good Schneider was the past two seasons.

If only he'd had the chance to play a full playoff series from the start with a healthy groin. I think that kid has a big cup run in him, although that's gonna be pretty fucking tough with the Devils.


2 years from now, he is a FA and can sign with anyone. Jersey has a short term solution if they can't keep him.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:49 am

Tciso wrote:2 years from now, he is a FA and can sign with anyone. Jersey has a short term solution if they can't keep him.


I'm sure he'll be well worth whatever salary he receives, unlike the 5.3 million Luongo will be getting until the end of time.
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