Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Topper » Wed May 29, 2013 9:04 pm

Edler is one of the trading pieces that has the greatest chance of turning around and biting the team in the ass.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Rumsfeld » Wed May 29, 2013 9:12 pm

Topper wrote:Edler is one of the trading pieces that has the greatest chance of turning around and biting the team in the ass.


+1 Toppslers.

It would take a pretty sweet fucking return to convince me to trade him. Bieksa on the other hand...

We need a more physical defense corps. We also need a less fucktardish defense corps.

In a perfect world we would somehow aquire a true #1 d-man, thus allowing us to trade Edler for an elite winger to play with Kesler. We then sign a good third-line center via free-agency and load up the fourth line with gaping bloody assholes. But even without a shrinking cap that would be a very tall order for any GM.

It sure was easier making these roster decisons when the team was at the top of the league. Gillis earns his reputation one way or another this summer.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby FAN » Thu May 30, 2013 6:06 am

Meds wrote:I'm not confusing it at all. Being a better passer and puck mover involves a lot more than you want to imply.

Puck moving happens in all three zones. Edler moves it well through through the neutral zone and does a decent job of moving it in the offensive zone.....but only when he's not under pressure. Once Edler is pressured he often makes a bad pass, it doesn't always result in a turnover but it often results in a forced regroup or a loss of momentum. In the defensive zone it is the same story. If he has the time he can make a very good outlet pass that hits a rushing forward, but when pressured he often ends up making the wrong decision, not always a turnover, but the puck doesn't get moved out of the zone either. Garrison, on the other hand, makes the smart, quick, play with the puck in all three zones. It's not always, and often isn't actually, the play that hits the rushing forward and results in a scoring chance. It is usually the pass that hits the open man who has some space and can then hit the rushing forwards and that results in offensive pressure. Garrison does this in all three zones.

Puck moving also requires being able to receive a pass and keep a play going. Edler is below average when it comes to this under pressure of any kind. At the point he has to settle the puck before making a play on it, generally this allows the defense to get back into position. When he gets pressured at the point the number of pucks that go straight into a defender's feet or bobble over his stick and the offense has to exit and regroup. Garrison, however, can take a less than perfect pass and get off a one-timer that hits the net or end boards and forces the defense to turn and gives our forwards a chance to attack. He can take that same pass and quickly move it back the way it came or cycle it around to the forward along the boards. He rarely is turned back out of the zone by a pressuring defender, and is very adept at keeping the puck in along the boards at the point to stop a clearing attempt.


[/QUOTE]

I disagree with your assessment that Edler is below average when it comes to being under pressure of any kind. You make him sound like he's been a piece of shit defensemen his entire NHL career who coughs up the puck whenever guys close in on him. Edler has had a tough season but he's not known for panicking under pressure. Edler is a consistently productive defensemen and he didn't put up those offensive numbers putting passes in players' feet. And you went from saying Edler does a decent job of moving the puck in the offensive zone to saying he can't control the puck or pass the puck at the point?

I disagree with your definition of puck moving defensemen. Under your definition, a lot of top tier PMDs simply wouldn't be good PMDs. Guys like Thomas Kaberle (in his prime) and Brian Campbell wouldn't be good PMDs under your definition. Neither would be a guy like Marc-Andre Bergeron.

I think you are confused. You seem like one of those guys who needs to put down another player in when telling others which player you prefer. I like Garrison but that doesn't mean I think lesser of Edler. Garrison being a good all around defensemen does no make Edler any less of a player.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Thu May 30, 2013 11:37 am

FAN wrote:
Meds wrote:I'm not confusing it at all. Being a better passer and puck mover involves a lot more than you want to imply.

Puck moving happens in all three zones. Edler moves it well through through the neutral zone and does a decent job of moving it in the offensive zone.....but only when he's not under pressure. Once Edler is pressured he often makes a bad pass, it doesn't always result in a turnover but it often results in a forced regroup or a loss of momentum. In the defensive zone it is the same story. If he has the time he can make a very good outlet pass that hits a rushing forward, but when pressured he often ends up making the wrong decision, not always a turnover, but the puck doesn't get moved out of the zone either. Garrison, on the other hand, makes the smart, quick, play with the puck in all three zones. It's not always, and often isn't actually, the play that hits the rushing forward and results in a scoring chance. It is usually the pass that hits the open man who has some space and can then hit the rushing forwards and that results in offensive pressure. Garrison does this in all three zones.

Puck moving also requires being able to receive a pass and keep a play going. Edler is below average when it comes to this under pressure of any kind. At the point he has to settle the puck before making a play on it, generally this allows the defense to get back into position. When he gets pressured at the point the number of pucks that go straight into a defender's feet or bobble over his stick and the offense has to exit and regroup. Garrison, however, can take a less than perfect pass and get off a one-timer that hits the net or end boards and forces the defense to turn and gives our forwards a chance to attack. He can take that same pass and quickly move it back the way it came or cycle it around to the forward along the boards. He rarely is turned back out of the zone by a pressuring defender, and is very adept at keeping the puck in along the boards at the point to stop a clearing attempt.



I disagree with your assessment that Edler is below average when it comes to being under pressure of any kind. You make him sound like he's been a piece of shit defensemen his entire NHL career who coughs up the puck whenever guys close in on him. Edler has had a tough season but he's not known for panicking under pressure. Edler is a consistently productive defensemen and he didn't put up those offensive numbers putting passes in players' feet. And you went from saying Edler does a decent job of moving the puck in the offensive zone to saying he can't control the puck or pass the puck at the point?

I disagree with your definition of puck moving defensemen. Under your definition, a lot of top tier PMDs simply wouldn't be good PMDs. Guys like Thomas Kaberle (in his prime) and Brian Campbell wouldn't be good PMDs under your definition. Neither would be a guy like Marc-Andre Bergeron.

I think you are confused. You seem like one of those guys who needs to put down another player in when telling others which player you prefer. I like Garrison but that doesn't mean I think lesser of Edler. Garrison being a good all around defensemen does no make Edler any less of a player.


You seem like one of those guys who likes to read too much into what others write.

I liked Edler in 2010-2011. Before that I was torn on what to think, I figured he would either reach full potential and end up being a more physical version of Lidstrom, not quite as skilled but still a #1 dman. After 2010-11 I was done with his mistakes, and I would happily keep him around as a 4-6 guy, he's the type of bottom 3 dman that you give $3.5-$4M because he's got loads of physical talent, but lacks the focus to utilize it effectively. One of the reasons he looked so good in 2010-11 was because he was paired with Ehrhoff who was excellent at moving the puck and Edler benefited from having less pressure on his own shoulders.

Edler does screw up with the puck when guys close on him. I didn't say he always coughs it up. He just doesn't make the smart play and the current play's momentum suffers because of it.

Edler put up most of his numbers getting big minutes and being on the ice with one of the top producing forward lines in the NHL. Many players have looked far better than they are points-wise when playing with Hank and Danny. It's easy to load up the assist column when you pass the puck to Henrik and then him and Daniel go to work and generate a goal with a couple of quick back-and-forth passes and the twin magic.

The fact that you include Marc-Andre Bergeron in your list of top tier PMD's tells me you don't know much about what you're talking about.

http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/hoc ... r.php?2278

There are stats and a scouting report on Bergeron. It sums him up nicely. Some of the scouting reports by THN are a bit generous, this one is bang on.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby KeyserSoze » Thu May 30, 2013 2:47 pm

With Edler's raise kicking in next season (jumping from $3.2M to $5M), I think the Canucks should look into moving either Edler or Bieksa...as well as Keith Ballard.

The way it stands currently, the Canucks have 5 D-men making over $4.2M next season...

The Kings have Doughty, with the rest of the D making under $4M
The Hawks have Seabrook & Keith, with the rest making under $4M
The Pens have Martin, with the rest (including Letang) making under $4M
The Bruins have Chara, with the rest making under $4M

(As a side note, none of the starting goalies left in the playoffs are making over $3.5M)

Bieksa has a NTC, Edler does not. It is also likely that Edler fetches you a higher return. There's also that back injury thing. I'd move whoever gets you the best return.

As for Ballard, maybe he will be better with a new coach, system, etc...but how much better? I think there are likely a decent amount of $2-2.5M D-men out there that can provide roughly the same results.

The Canucks biggest issue in the playoffs has been putting the puck in the net. They spent about $5M more this season on defence/goaltending than the Hawks/Kings/Pens/Bruins, but are not considered by many as better in those categories.

Give up some of that they have on defense/in net to become better offensively.

If moving Edler is your best chance to do that, then so be it.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Thu May 30, 2013 4:18 pm

KeyserSoze wrote:With Edler's raise kicking in next season (jumping from $3.2M to $5M), I think the Canucks should look into moving either Edler or Bieksa...as well as Keith Ballard.

The way it stands currently, the Canucks have 5 D-men making over $4.2M next season...

The Kings have Doughty, with the rest of the D making under $4M


The Kings have Regehr making just over $4M. They also have only one defenseman, other than Doughty, signed beyond this season. Mitchell is probably done.

KeyserSoze wrote:The Pens have Martin, with the rest (including Letang) making under $4M


Kris Letang is in the third year of a 4 year deal. He will cash in BIG after next season. If he were signed now he would probably be making more than $5M.

KeyserSoze wrote:The Bruins have Chara, with the rest making under $4M


The Bruins don't have any overly skilled defensemen outside of Chara and Seidenberg on their main payroll. They win through brute force and hard work when it comes to their blueline. They are also getting excellent contributions from their young call-ups.

KeyserSoze wrote:(As a side note, none of the starting goalies left in the playoffs are making over $3.5M)


Jonathan Quick is probably the best playoff goaltender in the league right now. He's signed long term with a new deal going into effect next season that will pay him a cap hit of $5.8M.

Corey Crawford has one more year remaining after this season. He will be looking at around $4M+.....depending upon next season's performance.

Tuuka Rask has no deal in place for next season. He's going to be in the $5M range.

MAF was the starting goaltender on the Pens this year and in the first round, he makes $5M. Vokoun is playing outstanding hockey in relief and is only making $2M because he wanted to play for a contender.

While you aren't wrong in what you say, the performances and payroll of these teams is only a factor because of the young stars coming into their own as their contracts wind down. It will be VERY interesting to see where these teams are in 2 years time when suddenly some major contributors (not just the goaltenders) are looking for contracts that are going to be as much as quadruple what they are currently making.

KeyserSoze wrote:Bieksa has a NTC, Edler does not. It is also likely that Edler fetches you a higher return. There's also that back injury thing. I'd move whoever gets you the best return.

As for Ballard, maybe he will be better with a new coach, system, etc...but how much better? I think there are likely a decent amount of $2-2.5M D-men out there that can provide roughly the same results.

The Canucks biggest issue in the playoffs has been putting the puck in the net. They spent about $5M more this season on defence/goaltending than the Hawks/Kings/Pens/Bruins, but are not considered by many as better in those categories.

Give up some of that they have on defense/in net to become better offensively.

If moving Edler is your best chance to do that, then so be it.


The Canucks problem is the country club mentality that permeates the team and hangs like a cloud in the dressing room. Outside of the #1 guys on the remaining playoff teams' bluelines, the Canucks have better players 2 through 5. Even Ballard, our 6th/7th is better than many of their 4 and 5 guys. The problem is that this team just never came together and played as a unit that completely bought in and wanted it at any cost. The Canucks are too soft. That's the problem. They don't man up and only a few of them lay it all on the line for the win.

The Sedins and Edler are 3 of our most skilled and naturally talented skaters. They are also the 3 most apathetic players on the roster. Sure they want to win, but they want to play this gentleman's game of hockey and they lack the on-ice mean streak that is driven by emotion. I'm not trying to throw European's under the bus here, but it's a fact that they just don't bring the same intensity to the ice. The most intensity I've ever seen from one of our European stars was Daniel and Naslund after their respective games were over.....and they broke their sticks on the way to the dressing room. Oh my! They must be upset. Fuck that. Break the stick over an opponent's ankle in the 2nd period when you get mad, or throw a hit that knocks someone into next week, who gives a shit about the penalty. Send the message. Step up.

Henrik and Daniel are leaders in practice and in the gym. They aren't leaders on the ice during the game.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby FAN » Thu May 30, 2013 9:14 pm

Meds wrote:I liked Edler in 2010-2011. Before that I was torn on what to think, I figured he would either reach full potential and end up being a more physical version of Lidstrom, not quite as skilled but still a #1 dman. After 2010-11 I was done with his mistakes, and I would happily keep him around as a 4-6 guy, he's the type of bottom 3 dman that you give $3.5-$4M because he's got loads of physical talent, but lacks the focus to utilize it effectively. One of the reasons he looked so good in 2010-11 was because he was paired with Ehrhoff who was excellent at moving the puck and Edler benefited from having less pressure on his own shoulders.

Edler does screw up with the puck when guys close on him. I didn't say he always coughs it up. He just doesn't make the smart play and the current play's momentum suffers because of it.

Edler put up most of his numbers getting big minutes and being on the ice with one of the top producing forward lines in the NHL. Many players have looked far better than they are points-wise when playing with Hank and Danny. It's easy to load up the assist column when you pass the puck to Henrik and then him and Daniel go to work and generate a goal with a couple of quick back-and-forth passes and the twin magic.

Wait, so the only year you liked Edler was in 2010-2011? Curious... what did you think of Edler prior to 2010-2011?

Again. You spew a bunch of stuff about Edler but the stats don't back up your arguments. I looked into Edler's assists stats this year and if I am not mistaken, only 3 of his assists had either a Sedin scoring or a Sedin assisting. As for Garrison, 4 of his assists had either a Sedin scoring or a Sedin assisting. So if you eliminate the Sedin factor, Edler had 11 assists and Garrison had 4. I just think it's laughable that you think Garrison creates more offense from his passing than Edler does.

Meds wrote:The fact that you include Marc-Andre Bergeron in your list of top tier PMD's tells me you don't know much about what you're talking about.

Just to clear things up, I do not consider Marc-Andre Bergeron to be an elite PMD and I can see how that could be ambiguous with the way I wrote it. I do consider MAB a good puckmover but I would hesitate to call him a defenseman.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Thu May 30, 2013 9:24 pm

FAN wrote:
Meds wrote:I liked Edler in 2010-2011. Before that I was torn on what to think, I figured he would either reach full potential and end up being a more physical version of Lidstrom, not quite as skilled but still a #1 dman. After 2010-11 I was done with his mistakes, and I would happily keep him around as a 4-6 guy, he's the type of bottom 3 dman that you give $3.5-$4M because he's got loads of physical talent, but lacks the focus to utilize it effectively. One of the reasons he looked so good in 2010-11 was because he was paired with Ehrhoff who was excellent at moving the puck and Edler benefited from having less pressure on his own shoulders.

Edler does screw up with the puck when guys close on him. I didn't say he always coughs it up. He just doesn't make the smart play and the current play's momentum suffers because of it.

Edler put up most of his numbers getting big minutes and being on the ice with one of the top producing forward lines in the NHL. Many players have looked far better than they are points-wise when playing with Hank and Danny. It's easy to load up the assist column when you pass the puck to Henrik and then him and Daniel go to work and generate a goal with a couple of quick back-and-forth passes and the twin magic.

Wait, so the only year you liked Edler was in 2010-2011? Curious... what did you think of Edler prior to 2010-2011?

Seriously?

I put it in bold for you so you can't miss it.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby FAN » Thu May 30, 2013 9:38 pm

Meds wrote:
Meds wrote:I liked Edler in 2010-2011. Before that I was torn on what to think, I figured he would either reach full potential and end up being a more physical version of Lidstrom, not quite as skilled but still a #1 dman.

I put it in bold for you so you can't miss it.


So in the summer summer of 2011, you still thought Edler had the potential to be a less skilled version of Lidstrom. Two years later, you don't think Edler is a good puck moving defensemen, you think he puts passes in players' feet when pressured in the offensive zone, and you don't think he can move the puck or pass as well as a defensemen whose career high in assists in the NHL is 17? People throw around Lidstrom comparisons way too much nowadays.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Reefer2 » Fri May 31, 2013 6:14 am

I don't think Edler is a true #1.

I don't think Edler is worth $5M with the mistakes he makes.

I do think Edler has too many nights where it looks like a fire drill in his own end

I do think Edler will bring back some of the best assets to change the core of this team.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby dbr » Fri May 31, 2013 7:03 am

This team may not have a true "number one defenseman" but boy do the fans ever have the luxury of taking a plethora of legit top four guys for granted.

I like Dan Hamhuis and Jason Garrison but would those two, Kevin Bieksa and a third year bean pole in Chris Tanev be the worst top four we've had in the last decade or so?

On the flip side complaining about $5m for a player of Edler's talent also seems crazy. I don't think there are too many teams out there who would turn him down even at $5m, which is precisely why he has the kind of trade value that has Canucks fans thinking about moving him to address big holes in our roster.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby donlever » Fri May 31, 2013 7:34 am

dbr wrote: I like Dan Hamhuis and Jason Garrison but would those two, Kevin Bieksa and a third year bean pole in Chris Tanev be the worst top four we've had in the last decade or so?

On the flip side complaining about $5m for a player of Edler's talent also seems crazy. I don't think there are too many teams out there who would turn him down even at $5m, which is precisely why he has the kind of trade value that has Canucks fans thinking about moving him to address big holes in our roster.


Hmmm.

Fantasy GM'ing at its finest.

Josh Baileys rights in a Luongo deal.

Couturier/Simmonds in an Edler deal.

Shea Weber (HW insists he wants to play here :look: ) in a Kesler deal.

dbr's problems solved.

Move over Gillis, I'll handle this shit from now on.

:D
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby dbr » Fri May 31, 2013 8:37 am

:lol:

There you go.

Now we just need Francesco to win the next Powerball draw so he can buy out Rick DiPietro in exchange for Nino Niederreiter and Travis Hamonic.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Orcasfan » Fri May 31, 2013 9:55 am

Meds, you seem like a reasonably intelligent person, by most of your posts. So, I really am disappointed that you spout forth this nonsense:
[quote] The Sedins and Edler are 3 of our most skilled and naturally talented skaters. They are also the 3 most apathetic players on the roster. Sure they want to win, but they want to play this gentleman's game of hockey and they lack the on-ice mean streak that is driven by emotion. I'm not trying to throw European's under the bus here, but it's a fact that they just don't bring the same intensity to the ice. The most intensity I've ever seen from one of our European stars was Daniel and Naslund after their respective games were over.....and they broke their sticks on the way to the dressing room. Oh my! They must be upset. Fuck that. Break the stick over an opponent's ankle in the 2nd period when you get mad, or throw a hit that knocks someone into next week, who gives a shit about the penalty. Send the message. Step up.

Henrik and Daniel are leaders in practice and in the gym. They aren't leaders on the ice during the game.[quote]

Obviously, you've been listening to Don Cherry too much! I guess in your world, European players like Bure, Ovechkin, Franzen, Kronwall, Forsberg, Hasik, Yakupov, et all don't really count as "Europeans" because they show emotion on the ice! And, of course, guys like Sakic, Yzerman, (our own) Morrison, etc...these don't count as "Canadians" because they don't show enough emotion on the ice! Logically, from your premise, captains like Sakic (a good "Canadian" boy) are useless as captains because they don't get all emotional on the ice?

Honestly, I thought this stereotyping of Europeans (thank you Mr Cherry!) was over. Especially in Vancouver! So, Meds, how about all your "Canadian" Canucks captains over the previous 4 decades - how many Cups have they won for the team? :hmmm:
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Reefer2 » Fri May 31, 2013 3:13 pm

dbr wrote:This team may not have a true "number one defenseman" but boy do the fans ever have the luxury of taking a plethora of legit top four guys for granted.


I am not taking anyone for granted, what I have seen is our #1 guy making some pretty bad mistakes in his own end several years in a row. I also see the value in him and believe that trading him for a great forward may be more beneficial to the team in the long run.

This core is done (includes D and F), if it is not Edler on the back end then who?
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