Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Rede » Tue May 28, 2013 7:53 pm

Meds wrote:So you see an inconsistent, turnover prone, emotionless, 27-year-old defenseman as part of the new core that you build around?

We seem to differ in our opinion of Edler. I'm basing that statement, mostly, on my having explicitly said so in the post you replied to:

Rede wrote:Its not that I wouldn't trade Edler, its that I think he's a top 20 Dman in this league and I think those are very hard to come by and shouldn't be traded for the sake of change.

That probably means we'll have different opinions of both the return we should expect and his suitability to remain with the team as part of the core.

I think a lot of fans get spoiled by what they have and tend to appreciate players on other teams more than players on their own team. Seeing them game in and game out really lets you pick apart their game and (unless youre watching Nicklas Lidstrom) there are always some warts. You inevitably just notice all the mistakes and, over time, start taking the good plays for granted.

I think Edler is probably a top-20 Dman and should garner a great return, but I also don't think he has peaked yet and am not anxious to sell low. I'm really interested to see how Edler adapts to a new coach and/or system and seeing if he can take that next step. AV and Bowness are all he's ever known...

I think it would take more than what a lot of people here seem to think for the Canucks to move Edler. I could be wrong... but we'll see I suppose.

Meds wrote: :stupid:

I do enjoy irony though! Reading comprehension ftw! :)
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Lancer » Tue May 28, 2013 8:06 pm

RoyalDude wrote:The comedy Lance. On one hand you all have been calling out Edler for two seasons now and how shitty he is, YET a good number of you think it's reasonable to suggest that giving up the chance to draft Mckinnon, Drouin and Barkov for Edler is not a bad idea. Do you see why I'm a lunatic sometimes?

Trust me, this trade will never happen.


Hold.

Up.

Yeah, I've hacked on him for his boneheaded plays that have cost us games, but nowhere have I said he was a shitty defenceman. Find me a quote, Dude.

He's a great defenceman, as many in the league will tell you. He's also arguably one of the most frustrating players on the roster because he can be a good defenceman and has the potential to be better but he just shits himself at really bad times. Hence my calling him out on his boneheaded plays.

Just to re-iterate, I'm saying Edler gets the conversation going for a trade of such a pick.

I wouldn't chalk up your current stance to lunacy, but some other psychological issues do recommend themselves... :P
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Tue May 28, 2013 11:32 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:I trade our first and Edler for Drouin/Mackinnon 10 times out of 10. I like Edler and would like to keep him but you DO NOT pass up a chance to draft a future PPG 18 year old kid who could carry the mail for this team for the next 15 years. I'm not sure I throw in the 1st for Seth Jones however. Edler for Jones is doable but this team needs an impact forward to build around in the worst way.


Lets turn the tables, if you held the 3rd overall pick and the chance to draft either or of McKinnon, Drouin, or Barkov would you pass that opportunity up for Edler and what seemingly will be a 20 something pick in the first round? Elder, a defenseman you and the likes of Meds have been calling shite all year and last?


i havent called Edler shit.... please stop making crap up. Seriously you were easier to take when you wore tights, boned transevestites and smoked rock. This is getting annoying.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby FAN » Wed May 29, 2013 7:46 am

Meds wrote:There is a difference between puck moving and a puck carrying/rushing defenseman. Edler is the latter, Garrison is the former. Garrison often makes the smart pass, the one that gets to the player who is in a position to transition the play up to the offensive zone. Edler often makes the risky play and his pass is not easily received or ends up targeting a teammate who is in traffic and can't make a good play on the puck. If you look, I said Edler is the better puck carrying defenseman because when Edler has some room he is better at skating it up the ice.

A puck rushing defensemen is necessarily a puck moving defensemen while a puck moving defensemen is not necessarily a puck rushing defensemen. Like I said, I think you're either overestimating Garrison or underestimating Edler or both. Edler is not a puck rushing defensemen. He never was. He can carry the puck up the ice but he's not an attacking puck rushing defensemen. Up until around the beginning of the second half of last season, Edler played with a lot of poise and control. He was a very good passer who can make the long stretch pass or quick passes that end up right on the sticks of his teammates. He is an accurate passer. Don't equate Edler's defensive struggles with Edler being a poor passer or turnover machine. I think you are completely confusing the issue. Edler is a very skilled player with offensive production to match. There is a reason why that for years Edler was considered the closest thing the team had to a #1 defensemen. He can be the total package and that includes his ability to make smart passes. I really have a suspicion that we have not watching the same player all these years. Last season Edler had more assists than Bieksa and Hamhuis while having more assists. This year Edler had 6 more assists than Garrison while giving away the puck only 2 more times than Garrison and Edler had a tough year. I've spent years on Canucks message boards and I haven't read too many complaints about Edler being a turnover machine. That's because Edler giveaway stats are in line with defensemen who handle the puck as much as Edler and have the type of production that Edler consistently produces.

On the other hand, I think there are aspects of Garrison's game that remains underrated. His assists totals aren't anything special but he makes a good first pass. With that said, there is a reason Garrison's assists totals aren't that high. He's not a particularly good at carrying the puck and that impacts his ability to be a playmaker the way Edler can.

Meds wrote:See? You made my point for me about his puck moving. :P

I don't see how I did. Making safe first passes doesn't automatically make one a good puck moving defensemen. Ehrhoff moved the puck faster and better than Garrison and I would argue Garrison made safer passes.


Meds wrote:When Edler was moved to the 2nd unit his point production dropped dramatically. I think if you look at the stats you'll get the picture.....

Edler had 8G 14A for 22P this year.

Garrison had 8G 8A for 16P this year.

Are you arguing that Garrison is a more complete offensive defensemen than Edler is? Every player would have his point production dropped dramatically if they are taken off the 1st unit PP. Over the course of a full season Edler would have 40 points and Garrison would have 27. Are you saying that's insignificant? When healthy you can count on Edler producing 10+ goals and 40+ points. There aren't too many defensemen capable of that.

Meds wrote:Edler also had almost a full game's worth of minutes more than Garrison when it came to PP time this season. That's essentially 30 more PP's to produce points on, and he was on the top unit with our best players most of the time. He managed 4 more PP points.

I am actually not in disagreement with you over the merits of having Garrison on the PP. I have already mentioned that I don't think Edler is anything special as a PP QB and I prefer Garrison's shot. In another thread I mentioned that I couldn't understand why Brown couldn't integrate Garrison onto the PP. If I was the coach I would have Garrison on the 1st unit PP and not Edler. But that doesn't mean Edler isn't better offensively and better at moving the puck.

Meds wrote:for Edler to only have recorded 19 more shots than Garrison tells me he missed the net a bunch.

Garrison is an incredibly accurate shooter. Garrison's ability to deliver a hard shot on net is exceptional.

Meds wrote:Edler was a minus-5 this year. Garrison was a plus-18. Plus 18 tied him for second overall in the league among defensemen. The simple translation is that the team scored more with Garrison on the ice, and allowed fewer with him on the ice.

What does this have to do with Edler being the better passer and better puck moving defensemen? Edler had a miserable year, hence this thread. The merits of +/- can be debated. Karlsson's +/- was less than Hamhuis last season, but there is no argument to who is the better puckmoving defensemen. What I would say is Garrison is better defensively than Edler.


Meds wrote:No. In short, Edler is above average when carrying the puck and almost poor with the puck under pressure. Garrison is average when carrying the puck and smart with the puck under pressure. In a non-shooting situation I want the puck on Garrison's stick because he won't force something that results in a turnover or a forced regroup in the neutral zone.

Again, Edler hardly turned the puck over more than Garrison and that means something because Edler handles the puck more than Garrison. Last season Karlsson had the 4th most giveaways among defensemen. Do you want the puck on Garrison's stick instead of Karlsson? John Tortorella had a saying that "safe is death". You got to try to do something with the puck.

Meds wrote:Am I saying Garrison is a puck rushing, offensively talented, defenseman? No. I'm saying he's a two-way guy who can play smart hockey in his own zone and make the right play on the puck to get the team turning things back the other way on offense.....and in a conference where aggressive forechecking, high pressure PK'ing, and low scoring games, are the going trend, Garrison is a better option than Edler.

Again, you are simply confusing the issue. My original reply to you is that Edler is a better passer and better puckmoving defensemen than Garrison.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Reefer2 » Wed May 29, 2013 8:11 am

I will say this again and again.

No player is untouchable, no player is un tradeable regardless if they have NTC or anything else. Players are not stupid, if they are not wanted they will accept a trade and it has happened many times. We just need a GM who has the balls to do what is right for the team. I don’t want a GM who is bed with the players like we have had for the past 5 years, this creates an atmosphere where there is zero accountability.

If MG does nothing in the off season regarding the core then this team is doomed for another coulda, woulda, shoulda year. It will be another year of a so-so season and an early playoff exit, of course pigs could fly and so could the Canucks win the SC with this core but I highly doubt either will ever happen.

What has happened to the high flying Canucks team from a few seasons ago when they could score at will? Very simple explanation, other teams adapted and the Canucks coaching and players didn’t. The Sedins are great and fantastic players but easily contained when they go into their cycle mode, they need to change their style of game to be more effective. I don’t expect them to start crashing the net but they need to make some simple changes of at least taking the puck to the net and shooting more.

The players themselves don’t see any issue, they think everything is just peachy and changes are not needed. Shows how they have no idea of how predictable this team is and how out of touch they are with reality in their special players only room. I wonder if it has little disco balls and great sound system?

I will wait and see what transpires over the next few months but I am not holding my breath for “player agent acting as a GM” MG to do anything bold to make this team better. My interest in this current team is diminishing call me a band wagoner all you want but I have given enough of my time and money to Orca and nothing to show for it. I will still watch the games but I always have a backup show and I flip back and forth, hell sometimes I forget to go back to the game for a whole period mainly because the team is so boring to watch.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby herb » Wed May 29, 2013 8:41 am

Rede wrote:Its not that I wouldn't trade Edler, its that I think he's a top 20 Dman in this league and I think those are very hard to come by and shouldn't be traded for the sake of change. If you're going to make moves to change things up I don't think starting with a guy who you can't replace on your roster is the way to do it.

If I trade Edler I'm looking to trade with a team who is desperate for a player of his calibre who will pay a premium for his services - especially given his excellent contract. If I'm looking to change the core I don't start with a 27-year-old-signed-long-term-to-a-great-deal Edler - I see him as part of the 'new core' to build around. If I move him it'd be because another team convinces me to move him with their offer. I certainly don't trade him and our first round pick for someone who isn't a sure thing and/or may be a year or two away from actually contributing to the same extent Edler does. We have another year or two with the twins playing at a high level... I'd be trying to extend the window while we have them because there aren't any replacements waiting in the wings.


A absolutely would agree that Edler is a top 20 offensive defenseman in this league. Where we disagree is that I think Edler is a below average, let me say that again - below average - defensive defenseman who looks downright bad under pressure. Top defensemen in this league are all around solid players, not offensive or defensive specialists. He makes the kind of boneheaded plays every game we have come to expect from rookies and dismal failures like Keith Ballard. Topper's assertion that he gets rattled when he hears footsteps while retrieving a dumped in puck is absolutely bag on.

My point with Edler is, what you see is what you get. In terms of the way the league is going, I think Dan Hamhuis and Jason Garrison are better top four, left side options than Alex Edler. I do not think the PP would see any drop off in production with Hamhuis manning the point (not that it's been that good anyway) as the first unit goes through Hank.

None of our left sided defensemen can play the right, so something has to give. Garrison and Hamhuis have NTCs, and it doesn’t make sense to have an expensive defenseman playing on the third unit given the decreasing cap and other budgetary concerns.

This is not about liking or disliking this specific player or making a change for the sake of change. Edler was my favourite Canuck for some time. This is about using pieces we have available to make our team better in areas where it is weak, notably a winger for Kesler and a 3rd line centre. Jason Garrison impressed me so much this past season that I think he has passed Edler on the depth chart.

I’ve also advocated moving the biter, but people don’t like that idea either. Apparently we all identify that this team needs changes, but don’t actually want to make any changes.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby donlever » Wed May 29, 2013 8:54 am

Bold moves.

We can all agree that it is time to make at least one.

If Edler is an asset that can garner a portion of what we need to ease the qualm of this club then it is a simple choice really.

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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Hockey Widow » Wed May 29, 2013 8:55 am

Bang on herb. We all see that something needs to change more than the typical tinkering. We can argue all summer over who needs to go or who will get us the best return but unless MG sees it we will all be disappointed again. This started at the beginning of last season. I like most have been waiting to see the team that went to game 7 of the finals. It seems that team disappeared. Without the Burrows OT goal against Chicago we would have been saying it at lot sooner.

The team lost its swagger and sense of urgency. They lost their passion. Whatever it takes to get it back needs to be done.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Reefer2 » Wed May 29, 2013 3:24 pm

hey where is my love for my post, I said the same thing first :( I feel sad and lonely.

Can't wait until my wife gets home in 2 weeks, been a single dad for the last 3 weeks and I need a little loving :P
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Eddy Punch Clock » Wed May 29, 2013 3:33 pm

donlever wrote:Bold moves.

We can all agree that it is time to make at least one.


Enter Tom Sestito.
2011..... the one that got away.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Uncle dans leg » Wed May 29, 2013 3:40 pm

Eddy Punch Clock wrote:
donlever wrote:Bold moves.

We can all agree that it is time to make at least one.


Enter Tom Sestito.

LoLoL
Bold are his interviews...he must've studied Stallone movies growing up...
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby nuckster » Wed May 29, 2013 4:44 pm

herb wrote:
Rede wrote:Its not that I wouldn't trade Edler, its that I think he's a top 20 Dman in this league and I think those are very hard to come by and shouldn't be traded for the sake of change. If you're going to make moves to change things up I don't think starting with a guy who you can't replace on your roster is the way to do it.

If I trade Edler I'm looking to trade with a team who is desperate for a player of his calibre who will pay a premium for his services - especially given his excellent contract. If I'm looking to change the core I don't start with a 27-year-old-signed-long-term-to-a-great-deal Edler - I see him as part of the 'new core' to build around. If I move him it'd be because another team convinces me to move him with their offer. I certainly don't trade him and our first round pick for someone who isn't a sure thing and/or may be a year or two away from actually contributing to the same extent Edler does. We have another year or two with the twins playing at a high level... I'd be trying to extend the window while we have them because there aren't any replacements waiting in the wings.


A absolutely would agree that Edler is a top 20 offensive defenseman in this league. Where we disagree is that I think Edler is a below average, let me say that again - below average - defensive defenseman who looks downright bad under pressure. Top defensemen in this league are all around solid players, not offensive or defensive specialists. He makes the kind of boneheaded plays every game we have come to expect from rookies and dismal failures like Keith Ballard. Topper's assertion that he gets rattled when he hears footsteps while retrieving a dumped in puck is absolutely bag on.

My point with Edler is, what you see is what you get. In terms of the way the league is going, I think Dan Hamhuis and Jason Garrison are better top four, left side options than Alex Edler. I do not think the PP would see any drop off in production with Hamhuis manning the point (not that it's been that good anyway) as the first unit goes through Hank.

None of our left sided defensemen can play the right, so something has to give. Garrison and Hamhuis have NTCs, and it doesn’t make sense to have an expensive defenseman playing on the third unit given the decreasing cap and other budgetary concerns.

This is not about liking or disliking this specific player or making a change for the sake of change. Edler was my favourite Canuck for some time. This is about using pieces we have available to make our team better in areas where it is weak, notably a winger for Kesler and a 3rd line centre. Jason Garrison impressed me so much this past season that I think he has passed Edler on the depth chart.

I’ve also advocated moving the biter, but people don’t like that idea either. Apparently we all identify that this team needs changes, but don’t actually want to make any changes.


Good Post (in my opinion) I can't comprehend how anyone could view this team as having 'untouchables' at this point!?
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Wed May 29, 2013 5:06 pm

In a lot of ways I wish that Burrows had NOT scored that goal in 2011 against Chicago. If the Canucks had been dumped by the Hawks in the first round after being eliminated by them in the two previous seasons and blowing series leads in all of them.....changes would have happened MUCH sooner.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Wed May 29, 2013 8:58 pm

FAN wrote:Again, you are simply confusing the issue. My original reply to you is that Edler is a better passer and better puckmoving defensemen than Garrison.


I'm not confusing it at all. Being a better passer and puck mover involves a lot more than you want to imply.

Puck moving happens in all three zones. Edler moves it well through through the neutral zone and does a decent job of moving it in the offensive zone.....but only when he's not under pressure. Once Edler is pressured he often makes a bad pass, it doesn't always result in a turnover but it often results in a forced regroup or a loss of momentum. In the defensive zone it is the same story. If he has the time he can make a very good outlet pass that hits a rushing forward, but when pressured he often ends up making the wrong decision, not always a turnover, but the puck doesn't get moved out of the zone either. Garrison, on the other hand, makes the smart, quick, play with the puck in all three zones. It's not always, and often isn't actually, the play that hits the rushing forward and results in a scoring chance. It is usually the pass that hits the open man who has some space and can then hit the rushing forwards and that results in offensive pressure. Garrison does this in all three zones.

Puck moving also requires being able to receive a pass and keep a play going. Edler is below average when it comes to this under pressure of any kind. At the point he has to settle the puck before making a play on it, generally this allows the defense to get back into position. When he gets pressured at the point the number of pucks that go straight into a defender's feet or bobble over his stick and the offense has to exit and regroup. Garrison, however, can take a less than perfect pass and get off a one-timer that hits the net or end boards and forces the defense to turn and gives our forwards a chance to attack. He can take that same pass and quickly move it back the way it came or cycle it around to the forward along the boards. He rarely is turned back out of the zone by a pressuring defender, and is very adept at keeping the puck in along the boards at the point to stop a clearing attempt.

Garrison is also capable of playing the right side, something Edler apparently cannot do very well.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Rumsfeld » Wed May 29, 2013 9:00 pm

Fuck trading Edler. Let's burn him at the stake.
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