Meds wrote:There is a difference between puck moving and a puck carrying/rushing defenseman. Edler is the latter, Garrison is the former. Garrison often makes the smart pass, the one that gets to the player who is in a position to transition the play up to the offensive zone. Edler often makes the risky play and his pass is not easily received or ends up targeting a teammate who is in traffic and can't make a good play on the puck. If you look, I said Edler is the better puck carrying defenseman because when Edler has some room he is better at skating it up the ice.
A puck rushing defensemen is necessarily a puck moving defensemen while a puck moving defensemen is not necessarily a puck rushing defensemen. Like I said, I think you're either overestimating Garrison or underestimating Edler or both. Edler is not a puck rushing defensemen. He never was. He can carry the puck up the ice but he's not an attacking puck rushing defensemen. Up until around the beginning of the second half of last season, Edler played with a lot of poise and control. He was a very good passer who can make the long stretch pass or quick passes that end up right on the sticks of his teammates. He is an accurate passer. Don't equate Edler's defensive struggles with Edler being a poor passer or turnover machine. I think you are completely confusing the issue. Edler is a very skilled player with offensive production to match. There is a reason why that for years Edler was considered the closest thing the team had to a #1 defensemen. He can be the total package and that includes his ability to make smart passes. I really have a suspicion that we have not watching the same player all these years. Last season Edler had more assists than Bieksa and Hamhuis while having more assists. This year Edler had 6 more assists than Garrison while giving away the puck only 2 more times than Garrison and Edler had a tough year. I've spent years on Canucks message boards and I haven't read too many complaints about Edler being a turnover machine. That's because Edler giveaway stats are in line with defensemen who handle the puck as much as Edler and have the type of production that Edler consistently produces.
On the other hand, I think there are aspects of Garrison's game that remains underrated. His assists totals aren't anything special but he makes a good first pass. With that said, there is a reason Garrison's assists totals aren't that high. He's not a particularly good at carrying the puck and that impacts his ability to be a playmaker the way Edler can.
See? You made my point for me about his puck moving.
I don't see how I did. Making safe first passes doesn't automatically make one a good puck moving defensemen. Ehrhoff moved the puck faster and better than Garrison and I would argue Garrison made safer passes.
Meds wrote:When Edler was moved to the 2nd unit his point production dropped dramatically. I think if you look at the stats you'll get the picture.....
Edler had 8G 14A for 22P this year.
Garrison had 8G 8A for 16P this year.
Are you arguing that Garrison is a more complete offensive defensemen than Edler is? Every player would have his point production dropped dramatically if they are taken off the 1st unit PP. Over the course of a full season Edler would have 40 points and Garrison would have 27. Are you saying that's insignificant? When healthy you can count on Edler producing 10+ goals and 40+ points. There aren't too many defensemen capable of that.
Meds wrote:Edler also had almost a full game's worth of minutes more than Garrison when it came to PP time this season. That's essentially 30 more PP's to produce points on, and he was on the top unit with our best players most of the time. He managed 4 more PP points.
I am actually not in disagreement with you over the merits of having Garrison on the PP. I have already mentioned that I don't think Edler is anything special as a PP QB and I prefer Garrison's shot. In another thread I mentioned that I couldn't understand why Brown couldn't integrate Garrison onto the PP. If I was the coach I would have Garrison on the 1st unit PP and not Edler. But that doesn't mean Edler isn't better offensively and better at moving the puck.
Meds wrote:for Edler to only have recorded 19 more shots than Garrison tells me he missed the net a bunch.
Garrison is an incredibly accurate shooter. Garrison's ability to deliver a hard shot on net is exceptional.
Meds wrote:Edler was a minus-5 this year. Garrison was a plus-18. Plus 18 tied him for second overall in the league among defensemen. The simple translation is that the team scored more with Garrison on the ice, and allowed fewer with him on the ice.
What does this have to do with Edler being the better passer and better puck moving defensemen? Edler had a miserable year, hence this thread. The merits of +/- can be debated. Karlsson's +/- was less than Hamhuis last season, but there is no argument to who is the better puckmoving defensemen. What I would say is Garrison is better defensively than Edler.
Meds wrote:No. In short, Edler is above average when carrying the puck and almost poor with the puck under pressure. Garrison is average when carrying the puck and smart with the puck under pressure. In a non-shooting situation I want the puck on Garrison's stick because he won't force something that results in a turnover or a forced regroup in the neutral zone.
Again, Edler hardly turned the puck over more than Garrison and that means something because Edler handles the puck more than Garrison. Last season Karlsson had the 4th most giveaways among defensemen. Do you want the puck on Garrison's stick instead of Karlsson? John Tortorella had a saying that "safe is death". You got to try to do something with the puck.
Meds wrote:Am I saying Garrison is a puck rushing, offensively talented, defenseman? No. I'm saying he's a two-way guy who can play smart hockey in his own zone and make the right play on the puck to get the team turning things back the other way on offense.....and in a conference where aggressive forechecking, high pressure PK'ing, and low scoring games, are the going trend, Garrison is a better option than Edler.
Again, you are simply confusing the issue. My original reply to you is that Edler is a better passer and better puckmoving defensemen than Garrison.