Gills and Vigneault

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby donlever » Fri May 10, 2013 11:24 am

herb wrote:
Yup, but that hasn't been the case here where (FFS) every Tom, Dick and Harry has become a part of the "core".


Indeed.

Loyalty is generally a good thing in this world of ours but GMMG's history as a player agent has been a detriment for sure.

He is to loyal to his boyz.

Like I said, I get it, he's trying to build a sense of us, team, community...but ya gotta be willing to cut some throats in the world of big business which is where Mikey resides right now.

herb wrote: If Luongo wants to stay, then fine, I don't really care which one we go with to be totally honest. It's always been my impression that Luongo has asked/hinted that he wants out of Vancouver. Lack and/or Cannata can hopefully be groomed down the road no matter which goalie we go with.


Yeah I doubt he want to be here as well.

Which is why I started that thread I just did.

Maybe we can start the transition period to Lack right now and make a real bold move?!


herb wrote:I see your point. Schroeder just strikes me as a good kid, and is one of our few youngsters who is ready for full time NHL duty. I'd hate to trade Schroeder and bring in a veteran on a pricey contract when that money could be spent finding a winger(s) for Kesler, which is the more pressing issue IMO.


Yep, I like Jordan to.

And I wouldn't trade him for a pricey vet contract unless it fit the new mold as you imply.

But once again the league is moving away from that player and I think we need a guy who can do the Kesler D stuff so Ryan can not be on the ice with Toews and Thornton all the time thus concentrating on offense and filling the god damned net.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Fri May 10, 2013 11:41 am

Sedin - 32
Sedin - 32
Burrows - 32
Kesler - 28
Higgins - 29
Hansen -27
Raymond - 27
LaPierre - 28
Weise - 24
Kassian -22
Schroeder - 22
Sestito -25
Roy - 30

Hamhuis - 30
Garrison - 28
Edler - 27
Tanev - 23
Ballard - 30
Bieksa - 31
Alberts - 31
Corrado - 20

Schneider - 27
Luongo - 34

Those are of course the current ages of the players on the roster. The problem, as I have mentioned before, is that they are missing those 24-25 year old players that are making a significant contribution to the team. A contribution typically above that of the contract value. Guys forcing their way into the core of the team. When they went to the cup final they had those guys...Edler, Hansen, Raymond, Kesler.

Now I know BD likes to put the blinders on for this but the reason is the lousy drafting of Nonis his final two years NOT Gillis. The only NHL player in those draft years Nonis found was Grabner. Yes yes he was traded but I still very much maintain he still doesn't make the canucks (he is currently 8th in average icetime amongst forwards for the Isles...he likely wouldn't be any higher on the canucks and arguably lower. A 4th liner or in the pressbox). It's that lack of talent in the pipeline from the Nonis years that is currently biting the club in the ass.

Fast forward a couple of years and you have that age of player making those contributions. Now and the next couple of years is the time you really start looking for the youngsters drafted by Gillis make their dent. We can expect to see a selection of Kassian, Tanev, Corrado, Jensen, Gaunce, Schroeder making that contribution.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby FAN » Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am

tantalum wrote:Those are of course the current ages of the players on the roster. The problem, as I have mentioned before, is that they are missing those 24-25 year old players that are making a significant contribution to the team. A contribution typically above that of the contract value. Guys forcing their way into the core of the team. When they went to the cup final they had those guys...Edler, Hansen, Raymond, Kesler.

Now I know BD likes to put the blinders on for this but the reason is the lousy drafting of Nonis his final two years NOT Gillis. The only NHL player in those draft years Nonis found was Grabner. Yes yes he was traded but I still very much maintain he still doesn't make the canucks (he is currently 8th in average icetime amongst forwards for the Isles...he likely wouldn't be any higher on the canucks and arguably lower. A 4th liner or in the pressbox). It's that lack of talent in the pipeline from the Nonis years that is currently biting the club in the ass.

I never bought into the whole argument that you need certain players in a certain age group (eg. 2X-26 years old) in order to win, considering that players have gotten paid in their 2nd and pre-UFA contracts. But there is evidence to suggest that you need those players so what do I know. I think what is important is that it is very difficult to recover from not getting anything out of a draft year or even two.

As for Grabner, I think he's a very underrated player. He's a player who has been able to produce playing 3rd line minutes, without a playmaker setting him up, and without much in the way of PP time. In hindsight, the team was better off with Grabner than Raymond, but then again we have AV as coach. I've come to the conclusion that AV is terrible at developing forwards. Outside of the guys whom he coached in the AHL, who did he develop?
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby dbr » Fri May 10, 2013 12:16 pm

FAN wrote:I never bought into the whole argument that you need certain players in a certain age group (eg. 2X-26 years old) in order to win, considering that players have gotten paid in their 2nd and pre-UFA contracts. But there is evidence to suggest that you need those players so what do I know. I think what is important is that it is very difficult to recover from not getting anything out of a draft year or even two.


I think it's more that you need guys outperforming their contracts than it is that you need them at a specific age group (of course, having key players without a decade of NHL mileage on them is nice too).

Finding those guys when they are UFA age is extremely tough. Finding guys good enough to do it before 23 or so is also extremely tough.. either you are talking about blue chippers, or real diamond-in-the-rough types.

When you draft well, develop well, and manage contract situations well.. the easiest window to get guys who are worth far more than their cap hit is that short period before they hit UFA eligibility.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Fri May 10, 2013 12:55 pm

dbr summed up my age group thing perfectly.

Schroeder....the reason I say you can go with him at least temporarily is that when he got sent back down to the AHL he was dominant. The AHL game seemed to have slowed down. He'll be better prepared next year and developing. perhaps that is best done in a 3rd/4th line role and you bring in an additional body. Also, IMO I think the top 6 winger(s) and the a-hole on the back end is the most important things to find and where the priority needs to like. That said, if you can bring back a young but bigger center for that 3rd line spot and ship out Schroeder you do so.

Grabner....I don't think he's underrated. He is what he is. A one-dimensional player. I don't think having him on the canucks roster does a darn thing to their fate the past two seasons as he actually hasn't been that productive. Or at least no more productive than the guys the canucks were already using in those spots. He's a 35-45 point player that plays a perimeter game If he doesn't beat the guy cleanly with speed he won't be putting his shoulder into a D-man trying to get to the net. That makes it difficult come playoff time when the officials start allowing water skiing and tackling and his speed is essentially nullified. He has been no more noticeable in the first round as Raymond or Hansen or Higgins. And they were simply not good.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Tciso » Fri May 10, 2013 1:25 pm

FAN wrote: I think a defenseman's ability to rush the puck is still an important skill and the team has simply gotten worse in that department since Ehrhoff left, and that is partly Vigneault's fault. Ehrhoff was by far the team's best defenseman at rushing the puck up ice. He was consistently able to carry the puck into the opposition's zone. After Ehrhoff it was Bieksa, Edler, and Ballard but Ballard doesn't play, and both Edler and Bieksa are only good when have time to pick up the puck while in motion. Besides Ballard, Hamhuis is probably the best Canucks defenseman at carrying the puck out of the Canucks zone from a dead stop. Tanev has improved but he's an average puck carrier, Garrison simply isn't good at carrying the puck, and forget about Alberts. Sure Vigneault's system does favor the first pass but the Canucks I seriously think the Canucks get into trouble when they get hemmed into their own zone precisely because they lack guys who can skate the puck out. There are times when a Canucks defenseman picks up a loose puck and has the room to skate the puck out but they don't because they don't have Ehrhoff or Ballard's skating ability.


I have been on that band wagon for several years. We have a bad tradition of only passing the puck out of our zone. Even though we are good at it, teams adapt, especially if you play them 4 or more games in a row. We need the diversity of breakouts, and imo, that is really AV's fault, and not Hamhuis, Ballard, or BXa's fault.

We get caught running in circles in our own end because we won't carry the puck out, or we force a pass that is picked off at the blue line. Bad AV, Bad!
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Fri May 10, 2013 1:58 pm

Corrado looks like he may have that puck carrying ability.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Knucklehead » Fri May 10, 2013 6:28 pm

if it was anywhere near an RD post I definitely glanced over it cause I can't read that shiite anymore)


Agree with this completely, I never read that negative shit any more.

Didn't "he who must not be named" be a good poster at one time with insightful posts about hockey instead of spouting hateful vitriol with every post.

On topic I think AV is done, not that I don't like him but I think he has lost the room, and has made too many questionable decisions this year in regards to line ups and match ups.

He is a very good coach and will land on his feet elsewhere, but I think his time here is done.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Topper » Fri May 10, 2013 11:16 pm

Schroeder is a runt. Tries his damnedest, but at the end of the day, he's a runt. Struggled against larger more physical opponents. When he was sent down, he was physically spent.

Jettison.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Lancer » Sat May 11, 2013 5:03 am

Topper wrote:Schroeder is a runt. Tries his damnedest, but at the end of the day, he's a runt. Struggled against larger more physical opponents. When he was sent down, he was physically spent.

Jettison.


If Schroeder can be part of a package that gets the Canucks a better player in a needed position, by all means jettison. Having said that, there are other smaller players who've survived and thrived among the bigger boys on the ice, and there's still reason to hope that Schroeder can do that sooner or later. No point in jettisoning him now just for picks unless he doesn't show improvement next season. After that, get what you can for him a-la Patrick White.

Give him a little time.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Arachnid » Sat May 11, 2013 6:48 am

Topper wrote:Schroeder is a runt. Tries his damnedest, but at the end of the day, he's a runt. Struggled against larger more physical opponents. When he was sent down, he was physically spent.

Jettison.


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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Topper » Sat May 11, 2013 8:12 am

Lancer wrote:
Topper wrote:Schroeder is a runt. Tries his damnedest, but at the end of the day, he's a runt. Struggled against larger more physical opponents. When he was sent down, he was physically spent.

Jettison.


If Schroeder can be part of a package that gets the Canucks a better player in a needed position, by all means jettison. Having said that, there are other smaller players who've survived and thrived among the bigger boys on the ice, and there's still reason to hope that Schroeder can do that sooner or later. No point in jettisoning him now just for picks unless he doesn't show improvement next season. After that, get what you can for him a-la Patrick White.

Give him a little time.

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby CrzyCanuck » Sat May 11, 2013 8:42 am

AV may be the most winnigest coach in Canucks history

but I care more about the person who will bring the 1st cup to us.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Sat May 11, 2013 10:10 am

tantalum wrote:
Now I know BD likes to put the blinders on for this but the reason is the lousy drafting of Nonis his final two years NOT Gillis. The only NHL player in those draft years Nonis found was Grabner. Yes yes he was traded but I still very much maintain he still doesn't make the canucks (he is currently 8th in average icetime amongst forwards for the Isles...he likely wouldn't be any higher on the canucks and arguably lower. A 4th liner or in the pressbox). It's that lack of talent in the pipeline from the Nonis years that is currently biting the club in the ass.



Have you not been watching the Isles/Pens series? Grabner looks a helluva better than anything Gillis has drafted.

I'm not the one who ranks Gillis drafting over the last 5 years as the worst in the NHL.

The Senators have 17 of their own draft picks playing in the NHL right now. How many of those came from the last 5 drafts? I will tell you - 7 (Zibanejad, Wiercioch, Silfverberg, Zac Smith, Karlson, Pageau, Cowan). All 3 of Smith, Karlson and Wieroch came from Gillis first draft (Hodgson). Vancouver have 9 of their own draft picks playing for them.

Hank
Dank
Kesler
Schneider
Hansen
Edler
Raymond
Corrado
Bieksa

Only one of those are Gillis (Corrado). 4 of them Nonis - Raymond, Edler, Schneider and Hansen. 4 of them are Burke/Nonis Bieksa, Hank and Dank, Kesler.

Stop making excuses for Gillis BARE CUPBOARDS.

The bottom line, the GM who gave the Canucks the best Goalie Tandem in then NHL was Nonis. That to me is his legacy. A city that has always struggle with finding elite goaltending.
Last edited by RoyalDude on Sat May 11, 2013 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Sat May 11, 2013 10:15 am

It's not a league for small guys anymore unless you are a cannonball with special talent like a Gallagher. I like Schroeder but it's gonna be real difficult for him to make the grade. Their were a bevy of good quality players that went right after Schroeder that I would much rather have, i.e., Silfverberg or O'Reilly.
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