Gills and Vigneault

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Fri May 10, 2013 6:35 am

Grapes was right on the money. What a true sage he is, a Canadian Hockey Legend.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby ukcanuck » Fri May 10, 2013 8:25 am

RoyalDude wrote:Grapes was right on the money. What a true sage he is, a Canadian Hockey Legend.

So you want to trade Schneider then?
Actually I've brought that up before. Luongo,s contract does not have a clause that forces a trade, year after next it only allows for one.
Yesterday Luongo publicly said he wants to be number one "either here or elsewhere"

Why not trade Schneider instead of Edler ??? There is no defencemen available out there better ...
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby donlever » Fri May 10, 2013 8:40 am

ukcanuck wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:
Why not trade Schneider instead of Edler ??? There is no defencemen available out there better ...


Trade 'em both, among other "key" personnel.

Fire the coach and his staff.

Suck it up and rework the organization. Get younger, bigger, meaner.

Sedin Sedin Kassian (just fukin do it and live with it it'll be best for all 3 of those guys)

blank Kesler Jensen

Higgins blank Hansen

blank blank blank

Hamhuis Bieksa

Garrison Tanev

Asshole Corrado

Luongo

Back up

Use Schneider, Edler, Burrows, Shcroeder, Ballard et cetera to fill in your blanks. The first 3 should garner some pretty decent assets to get the process started. Ballard gives us an option to swap contracts or to allow some team to hit the salary floor while perhaps returning a 4th line asset or a lower end draft pick. Booth is a wild card right now due to his injury.

How much would Pittsburgh or Philly like to move forward with Cory Schneider between the pipes?
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby ukcanuck » Fri May 10, 2013 8:48 am

donlever wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:
Why not trade Schneider instead of Edler ??? There is no defencemen available out there better ...


Trade 'em both, among other "key" personnel.

Fire the coach and his staff.

Suck it up and rework the organization. Get younger, bigger, meaner.

Sedin Sedin Kassian (just fukin do it and live with it it'll be best for all 3 of those guys)

blank Kesler Jensen

Higgins blank Hansen

blank blank blank

Hamhuis Bieksa

Garrison Tanev

Asshole Corrado

Luongo

Back up

Use Schneider, Edler, Burrows, Shcroeder, Ballard et cetera to fill in your blanks. The first 3 should garner some pretty decent assets to fill in your blanks. Ballard gives us an option to swap contracts or to allow some team to hit the salary floor while perhaps returning a 4th line asset or a lower end draft pick. Booth is a wild card right now due to his injury.

How much would Pittsburgh or Philly like to move forward with Cory Schneider between the pipes?



Lol okay so question answered , changing the coaching staff and sticking with core not enough IYHO.
Awesome :)
If that comes to pass ill feel better knowing that at least one cool customer also thinks its a good idea.

... Unless unless you got up on the wrong side of the bed today and your taking the piss ... :crazy:
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby donlever » Fri May 10, 2013 8:56 am

ukcanuck wrote: ... Unless unless you got up on the wrong side of the bed today and your taking the piss ... :crazy:


Nah but I will admit to a definite lack of give a shit.

However, while not paying much attention to the "process" over the last year and a half or so it strikes me that this incarnation of "your Vancouver Canucks" is moving decidedly in the wrong direction.

Time for GMMG to cut the cord to the previous era and make himself a team to either succeed or fail.

Miss the post season or lose early is irrelevant at this point, the club is already doing that.

Pointing the ship in the right direction, altering the trajectory and moving towards building a team that could compete for the Cup in a league that has altered it's course and style of play would seem the prudent choice.

Thus his legacy shall be determined.
Last edited by donlever on Fri May 10, 2013 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Arachnid » Fri May 10, 2013 9:13 am

donlever wrote:
ukcanuck wrote: ... Unless unless you got up on the wrong side of the bed today and your taking the piss ... :crazy:


Nah but I will admit to a definite lack of give a shit.

However, while not paying much attention to the "process" over the last year and a half or so it strikes me that this incarnation of "your Vancouver Canucks" is moving decidedly in the wrong direction.

Time for GMMG to cut the cord to the previous era and make himself a team to either succeed or fail.

Miss the post season or lose early is irrelevant at this point, the club is already doing that.

Pointing the ship in the right direction and talking positive direction and moving towards building a team that could compete for the Cup in a league that has altered it's course and style of play would seem the prudent choice.

Thus his legacy shall be determined.


Here hear...duh wait a sec, I already posted something similar :?

Agree 100% Donniebrook. It is time he made it his team and no excuses of inherited crap. Give him two years to make it into a real contender. There are good things to work with, some good trade bait (can people please stop about whether to trade Cory or Luo, we all know why this is happening), a few good young prospects and a couple of great core players. I don't see a problem here unless word is out not to deal with MG. If that's the case. we are fucked and need to get someone in here that is a GMs GM.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby donlever » Fri May 10, 2013 9:18 am

Arachnid wrote:
Here hear...duh wait a sec, I already posted something similar :?



Sorry Spidey, didn't see it, my bad.

(if it was anywhere near an RD post I definitely glanced over it cause I can't read that shiite anymore)
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Fri May 10, 2013 9:35 am

That's pretty much the changes I make to Donnie. Though I put Schneider between the pipes. But that is because I think Luongo is being PC in his "here or somewhere else" comment. I think it is decidedly "somewhere else" and that has been communicated to management.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby FAN » Fri May 10, 2013 9:44 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:Excellent defence of Gillis, FAN. It's hard to imagine the entire front office being cleaned out. The Coach is almost certainly gone, and Gillis has another year. I figure the next year will be very informative. The Sedins are UFA next summer. If this team doesn't rebound, it could be in for a major overhaul (front office included) next summer.

The one area where I feel Gillis has misread is the defence. With this team, he accurately predicted we'd need depth on defence. However, it's his ideas of defensive scoring and offense from the back end that haven't panned out. The "D" get a lot of points in the regular season, but once the playoffs start, the shooting lanes to the point are much more clogged, and players are sacrificing the body on every shot. I feel Gillis needs to seriously consider a more traditional defensive apporach. Allocate some of the money spent ($4M guys on the third pairing ain't feasible) to get some more scoring closer to the opponents net.

Thanks and good points. I've said this before, but I think a defenseman's ability to rush the puck is still an important skill and the team has simply gotten worse in that department since Ehrhoff left, and that is partly Vigneault's fault. Ehrhoff was by far the team's best defenseman at rushing the puck up ice. He was consistently able to carry the puck into the opposition's zone. After Ehrhoff it was Bieksa, Edler, and Ballard but Ballard doesn't play, and both Edler and Bieksa are only good when have time to pick up the puck while in motion. Besides Ballard, Hamhuis is probably the best Canucks defenseman at carrying the puck out of the Canucks zone from a dead stop. Tanev has improved but he's an average puck carrier, Garrison simply isn't good at carrying the puck, and forget about Alberts. Sure Vigneault's system does favor the first pass but the Canucks I seriously think the Canucks get into trouble when they get hemmed into their own zone precisely because they lack guys who can skate the puck out. There are times when a Canucks defenseman picks up a loose puck and has the room to skate the puck out but they don't because they don't have Ehrhoff or Ballard's skating ability.

ukcanuck wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Grapes was right on the money. What a true sage he is, a Canadian Hockey Legend.

So you want to trade Schneider then?
Actually I've brought that up before. Luongo,s contract does not have a clause that forces a trade, year after next it only allows for one.
Yesterday Luongo publicly said he wants to be number one "either here or elsewhere"

Why not trade Schneider instead of Edler ??? There is no defencemen available out there better ...

This is not an either or situation. One of our goaltenders has to go. That doesn't mean you don't consider trading a player like Edler for either a different type of defenseman or help up front. The makeup of the team needs to change.

As for Grapes, I don't agree with him at all. Goaltending is a very important position and I think most of us do consider Schneider to be the better goaltender. So good for Gillis to keep Schneider and keep him instead of Luongo. A less patient GM would have traded Schneider long ago.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby donlever » Fri May 10, 2013 9:45 am

tantalum wrote:That's pretty much the changes I make to Donnie. Though I put Schneider between the pipes. But that is because I think Luongo is being PC in his "here or somewhere else" comment. I think it is decidedly "somewhere else" and that has been communicated to management.


Yep, that whole premise would be based on Luongo being 100% on board and dedicated to the plan.

Obviously many of us believe Schneider brings back the greater return thus the leanings in those directions.

If not we have to move Luo and deal with whatever it is we get in return. Makes the process more difficult but the culture, it seems apparent, simply has to change.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Aaronp18 » Fri May 10, 2013 9:55 am

As far as I'm concerned Gillis should field offers from every team for every player.

If a deal has the chance to make this team significantly better it needs to be heard.

I just don't see guys like the Sedins, Kesler, Hamhuis, and Garrison being moved though (not that many have advocated shopping these guys). I think we can move the other parts (not all of them obviously) and redefine this team.

Hell maybe we move both our goalies and pick up Mike Smith. What would we look like with a goalie that can move the puck up to our d-men or even the forwards faster?

Explore all options.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby herb » Fri May 10, 2013 9:59 am

donlever wrote:Trade 'em both, among other "key" personnel.

Fire the coach and his staff.

Suck it up and rework the organization. Get younger, bigger, meaner.

Sedin Sedin Kassian (just fukin do it and live with it it'll be best for all 3 of those guys)

blank Kesler Jensen

Higgins blank Hansen

blank blank blank

Hamhuis Bieksa

Garrison Tanev

Asshole Corrado

Luongo

Back up

Use Schneider, Edler, Burrows, Shcroeder, Ballard et cetera to fill in your blanks. The first 3 should garner some pretty decent assets to get the process started. Ballard gives us an option to swap contracts or to allow some team to hit the salary floor while perhaps returning a 4th line asset or a lower end draft pick. Booth is a wild card right now due to his injury.

How much would Pittsburgh or Philly like to move forward with Cory Schneider between the pipes?


Now how the hell are we going to land the crash and bang blank triplets this off season???

Seriously though, overall I'm on the same page as you, but I'd open it up a bit tell the 29 other GMs that the Vancouver Canucks are open for business. Field offers on every player, and see what's available.

I do agree with Tant that Lalongo has asked to be removed from the premises. I also think Roberto is a part of the stanky old "leadership group" of this team that needs a swift kick in the nuts.

Not time for a total rebuild. Take the good parts, and change out some of the redundant, old stanky ones. Between Edler, Burrows and Lalongo we should be able to get us the pieces required to get a big fast winger to play with Kesler (Voracek or Wheeler...).

I'd be willing to give Schroeder the reins of the 3rd line centre position as long as the plan is to play him with two vets in Higgins and Hansen. The 4th line needs a re-think, and the only guy I keep is Weise.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby donlever » Fri May 10, 2013 10:54 am

herb wrote: Seriously though, overall I'm on the same page as you, but I'd open it up a bit tell the 29 other GMs that the Vancouver Canucks are open for business. Field offers on every player, and see what's available.


That should be the case with every team and every GM every day. (Save for the Sidney Crosbys', Steve Stamkos' of the world). It it's not there is already a major concern (which may be the case in terms of Mikes "loyalty" to his players NTC's...that's gotta change...I get it but NTC's are moved in this league all the time...team first).


herb wrote: I do agree with Tant that Lalongo has asked to be removed from the premises. I also think Roberto is a part of the stanky old "leadership group" of this team that needs a swift kick in the nuts.


I agree with this. However, I also see that Luongo is a different, humbled dude now which may take care of that issue on its own.

I also prefer Schneider but if we can do the younger, meaner thing, add skilled to that list and supplement with other needs by trading Schneider then I can live with RL for 5 years.

Don't think for a minute it will happen but, as they say, I'm just sayin'.

herb wrote:I'd be willing to give Schroeder the reins of the 3rd line centre position as long as the plan is to play him with two vets in Higgins and Hansen.


This I do not like. It strikes me that the wheels started to come off to a degree when Malhotra was yanked form the line up due to injury. I like that from my 3rd line center as opposed to the tiny dude in Shcroeder. Especially seeing as the league is moving in the direction it is.

I'd like to see someone of significance in terms of size (combined with face off skillz and pk abilities) anchoring that 3rd line.

herb wrote:The 4th line needs a re-think, and the only guy I keep is Weise.


Meh, either or, not a make or break guy as you know.

I suppose it's fine if he's here as long as Sestito and Ebbet aren't his line mates (or Lappy) but it's not like he can't be improved upon.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby herb » Fri May 10, 2013 11:11 am

donlever wrote:That should be the case with every team and every GM every day. (Save for the Sidney Crosbys', Steve Stamkos' of the world). It it's not there is already a major concern (which may be the case in terms of Mikes "loyalty" to his players NTC's...that's gotta change...I get it but NTC's are moved in this league all the time...team first).


Yup, but that hasn't been the case here where (FFS) every Tom, Dick and Harry has become a part of the "core".

donlever wrote:I agree with this. However, I also see that Luongo is a different, humbled dude now which may take care of that issue on its own.

I also prefer Schneider but if we can do the younger, meaner thing, add skilled to that list and supplement with other needs by trading Schneider then I can live with RL for 5 years.

Don't think for a minute it will happen but, as they say, I'm just sayin'.


If Luongo wants to stay, then fine, I don't really care which one we go with to be totally honest. It's always been my impression that Luongo has asked/hinted that he wants out of Vancouver. Lack and/or Cannata can hopefully be groomed down the road no matter which goalie we go with.

donlever wrote:This I do not like. It strikes me that the wheels started to come off to a degree when Malhotra was yanked form the line up due to injury. I like that from my 3rd line center as opposed to the tiny dude in Shcroeder. Especially seeing as the league is moving in the direction it is.

I'd like to see someone of significance in terms of size (combined with face off skillz and pk abilities) anchoring that 3rd line.


I see your point. Schroeder just strikes me as a good kid, and is one of our few youngsters who is ready for full time NHL duty. I'd hate to trade Schroeder and bring in a veteran on a pricey contract when that money could be spent finding a winger(s) for Kesler, which is the more pressing issue IMO.

As we’ve seen in year’s past, the 3C position is a hard place to upgrade. Malhotra was nearly a perfect fit, and IMO Gillis doesn’t get enough credit for bringing Manny in or enough slack for not predicting Malhotra’s untimely demise.

donlever wrote:Meh, either or, not a make or break guy as you know.

I suppose it's fine if he's here as long as Sestito and Ebbet aren't his line mates (or Lappy) but it's not like he can't be improved upon.


Weise annoys me, to be totally honest, but he’s a serviceable option and is fine as a 12/13th forward. I’d be happy to upgrade that entire line. Lapierre is too much of a distraction and a liability due to his reputation. That line has not enough grit, can’t play enough minutes and absolutely zero offence.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby vic » Fri May 10, 2013 11:24 am

rockjetty wrote:
Grapes is right about the goalie situation. One of them needed to be traded to start the year, but Luo also wanted out. GMMG can't really trade Schneider to keep a disgruntled Lou that doesn't want to be here, or eventually we'd have no #1.

If Cherry watched many Canucks games this year, I don't think he'd think AV did a great job keeping the team motivated and hungry for the post-season.


Does Lou want out of Vancouver because the current coach doesn't consider him to be the #1 goalie or does he want out of -Vancouver because he doesn't like playing here? What happens if a new coach comes in and says he'd prefer to have Lou in the net over Schneider. Gillis trades Schneider & Lou is once again the #1. Does he still want out?

Million Dollar Question:

1. Did MG bring in / re-sign the wrong players - i.e. would they have performed the same on a different team?
2. Did AV not know how to properly use the players brought in - i.e. trying to change their style of play to fit a system rather than using their strengths to make adjustments to the system?

I'm leaning towards AV not doing his job well enough. How Ballard + Booth can go from consistent 30+ point players to "shit" in Vancouver and how players like Hodgson and Grabner can go from secondary role players in Vancouver to have career years with new teams falls on the coaching staff, not the GM.

Ballard and Booth went from putting up good numbers on bad teams to putting up shit on a good team. Grabner could barely crack the lineup in Vancouver, yet became a calder trophy candidate in NY.

^ That is not the GM's fault, that is the coaches fault.
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