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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby RoyalDude » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:13 pm

dbr wrote:Mantha's offensive ability is tempting but he is a one way guy who is pretty much known for a lack of intensity, heart, effort.. he is either going to have to prove he is a world class talent to succeed in the NHL, or completely reform his game. Plus he is way older than most of the guys drafted in 2013.. born a day or two earlier and he would have been a mid round pick in 2012. I don't know, lots to like about him but there are some pretty big red flags.

Smith, I haven't seen him play much but he's only three years younger than Edler and we had a pretty good idea of what kind of player Alex Edler could be by that age (a defenseman we have at the same age, Chris Tanev, probably isn't going to add any other big dimensions to his game either).

I wouldn't turn my nose up at either player but I'd hope we could do better for Edler.


So you are more comforted by those superficial, cliche Billy Beane attributes in a prospect, big, strong, fast, works hard, all around, coachable, etc? How about intangibles , how about the fact that he can fucking score! Every time I saw him he was dangerous, has a real nose for scoring, Johnny on the spot, if Detroit drafted him that should tell u something.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby dbr » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:21 am

RoyalDude wrote:So you are more comforted by those superficial, cliche Billy Beane attributes in a prospect, big, strong, fast, works hard, all around, coachable, etc? How about intangibles , how about the fact that he can fucking score! Every time I saw him he was dangerous, has a real nose for scoring, Johnny on the spot, if Detroit drafted him that should tell u something.


Aw cram it Dude, Brandon Reid was a great WJC scorer once. Cody Hodgson turned in a performance for the ages and is still a guy whose best games are the ones where he outscores his problems.

If Mantha had dropped to 24 and we got him instead of Hunter Shinkaruk I'd be pulling for him but when the people who watched him play are saying things like they do, that's not a guy I'd be jazzed about trading Alex Edler for.

I mean there was some talk about Carolina shopping their fifth overall pick for a top four defenseman, you could have taken Monahan with that pick (and Lindholm is no slouch either) and now we're supposed to get jazzed about a guy whose main selling point is that if he actually put in an effort his talent might put him on the same level as players like that?
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:50 am

Go back and read the scathing scouting reports on Claude Giroux.

It's simple for me, we can't fucking score and Mantha is a pure goal scorer, you can't teach that shit. I could care less about his faults, everyone is flawed, but Mantha has a talent that we don't have, pure goal scorer. Also, he is pretty good set up man as well as he is at the top in the Q in assists, he bleeds offence, I can live with his faults

Mantha leads the Q in scoring - 42 games, 43 goals, 47 assists. Good enough for me, not too mention that he is 6'5" and not to mention he can produce against the best players in the world of his age group the WJC's

It's funny hearing CC Edler haters saying we could get a top 5 pick for him when these same folk run him through the ringer after each and every game for his mistakes and how much of an overrated D-man he is and that he ain't worth the money Gillis gave him, blah, blah, blah. Just research all of Meds post game posts, they are all about his disdain for Edler. "But we can get a top 5 pick for him!" Good luck with that

Do you not think that if Gillis had a chance to draft Monahan or Lindholm by just trading Edler for that chance he would have? What does that say about our GM if that were true? Even Gillis isn't that dense to turn that down, at least I hope not.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby dbr » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:47 am

RoyalDude wrote:Go back and read the scathing scouting reports on Claude Giroux.


What's your point? Is it that there are hundreds of kids with question marks every single year and that sometimes one of them turns into a high end player - and that's why we should trade a high end player for one of the hundreds of kids who in 2013 (as one of the oldest and in theory most polished players in his draft class) has a boatload of question marks around his future?

It's simple for me, we can't fucking score and Mantha is a pure goal scorer, you can't teach that shit. I could care less about his faults, everyone is flawed, but Mantha has a talent that we don't have, pure goal scorer. Also, he is pretty good set up man as well as he is at the top in the Q in assists, he bleeds offence, I can live with his faults

Mantha leads the Q in scoring - 42 games, 43 goals, 47 assists. Good enough for me, not too mention that he is 6'5" and not to mention he can produce against the best players in the world of his age group the WJC's


Well if the Canucks are going to leave Vancouver and set up shop in Val d'Or then sign me up because Mantha can definitely produce in the Q. Maybe we should deal Dan Hamhuis for Mathieu Perrault while we're at it, he put up some pretty good numbers in the Q (even outscored your boy Claude Giroux), although mysteriously it hasn't translated over to the NHL all that well...

Dane Fox - who is not even a full year older than Mantha - is producing in the OHL at a similar rate to what Mantha is in the Q. If the draft cut-off was September 10 instead of September 15 Mantha would just be having a ho-hum, "yeah it's nice but of course he's ripping it up" overage year.

It's funny hearing CC Edler haters saying we could get a top 5 pick for him when these same folk run him through the ringer after each and every game for his mistakes and how much of an overrated D-man he is and that he ain't worth the money Gillis gave him, blah, blah, blah. Just research all of Meds post game posts, they are all about his disdain for Edler. "But we can get a top 5 pick for him!" Good luck with that


This again... I know it is really, really, really easy to argue against a generalized group when you can project two inconsistent views onto everyone in it but I like Edler so it doesn't really do anything other than make you look like a self-indulgent old crank with a reading problem.

Do you not think that if Gillis had a chance to draft Monahan or Lindholm by just trading Edler for that chance he would have? What does that say about our GM if that were true? Even Gillis isn't that dense to turn that down, at least I hope not.


Who knows what exactly would have been on the table. Probably they would have wanted Edler plus something else, and who knows why that didn't pan out. Perhaps things would be different today but my point is that if Edler and a top pick in a great draft are even in the same conversation, there's no point in moving him for a project player (plus another project player who is further along in Smith).
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:56 am

Double post
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:57 am

dbr wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Go back and read the scathing scouting reports on Claude Giroux.


What's your point? Is it that there are hundreds of kids with question marks every single year and that sometimes one of them turns into a high end player - and that's why we should trade a high end player for one of the hundreds of kids who in 2013 (as one of the oldest and in theory most polished players in his draft class) has a boatload of question marks around his future?

It's simple for me, we can't fucking score and Mantha is a pure goal scorer, you can't teach that shit. I could care less about his faults, everyone is flawed, but Mantha has a talent that we don't have, pure goal scorer. Also, he is pretty good set up man as well as he is at the top in the Q in assists, he bleeds offence, I can live with his faults

Mantha leads the Q in scoring - 42 games, 43 goals, 47 assists. Good enough for me, not too mention that he is 6'5" and not to mention he can produce against the best players in the world of his age group the WJC's


Well if the Canucks are going to leave Vancouver and set up shop in Val d'Or then sign me up because Mantha can definitely produce in the Q. Maybe we should deal Dan Hamhuis for Mathieu Perrault while we're at it, he put up some pretty good numbers in the Q (even outscored your boy Claude Giroux), although mysteriously it hasn't translated over to the NHL all that well...

Dane Fox - who is not even a full year older than Mantha - is producing in the OHL at a similar rate to what Mantha is in the Q. If the draft cut-off was September 10 instead of September 15 Mantha would just be having a ho-hum, "yeah it's nice but of course he's ripping it up" overage year.

It's funny hearing CC Edler haters saying we could get a top 5 pick for him when these same folk run him through the ringer after each and every game for his mistakes and how much of an overrated D-man he is and that he ain't worth the money Gillis gave him, blah, blah, blah. Just research all of Meds post game posts, they are all about his disdain for Edler. "But we can get a top 5 pick for him!" Good luck with that


This again... I know it is really, really, really easy to argue against a generalized group when you can project two inconsistent views onto everyone in it but I like Edler so it doesn't really do anything other than make you look like a self-indulgent old crank with a reading problem.

Do you not think that if Gillis had a chance to draft Monahan or Lindholm by just trading Edler for that chance he would have? What does that say about our GM if that were true? Even Gillis isn't that dense to turn that down, at least I hope not.


Who knows what exactly would have been on the table. Probably they would have wanted Edler plus something else, and who knows why that didn't pan out. Perhaps things would be different today but my point is that if Edler and a top pick in a great draft are even in the same conversation, there's no point in moving him for a project player (plus another project player who is further along in Smith).


Come to your senses man, straight up we ain't getting a top 5 pick for Edler, straight up we might be able to get Mantha and Smith. Sign me up cause the Q is producing some of Canada's brightest offensive stars lately - McKinnon and Drouin.

I like Fox but the kid has a fucking mountain to climb to get here, not a very good skater and in the small side 6'0" - 180 lbs. Bad combination which is why the scouts say he would have gone in the 2nd or 3rd round in this years draft if he were eligible

A giant with soft hands - Mantha? Fucking sign me up. Anyhow Hockey Canada thought enough of him to keep him on this years World Junior Team, not to mention that the kid put up there.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby dbr » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:12 am

A WJC selection isn't everything, neither is a good outing once you're there.

Like I said there's a lot to like about Mantha but it seems like for a lot of people all his question marks disappeared when he was anointed with the honour of being a Detroit Red Wings draft selection.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:33 am

dbr wrote:A WJC selection isn't everything, neither is a good outing once you're there.

Like I said there's a lot to like about Mantha but it seems like for a lot of people all his question marks disappeared when he was anointed with the honour of being a Detroit Red Wings draft selection.


Understandable

At the same time, we ain't getting a top 5 draft pick for Edler. Well I shouldn't say that, this years draft class is shite unless you are picking top 2, but the 2013 draft class? No way


Regarding the red wings, when they constantly find gems late in the first round and outside of the first round - Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Kronwall, Tatar, Nyqvist etc us it no wonder why people take that attitude with their prospects ?
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Meds » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:38 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Come to your senses man, straight up we ain't getting a top 5 pick for Edler, straight up we might be able to get Mantha and Smith. Sign me up cause the Q is producing some of Canada's brightest offensive stars lately - McKinnon and Drouin.


Don't forget some of the current NHL superstars.....Crosby comes to mind. :P

The Q is all about offense, there are plenty of players who came into the NHL from the Q that fizzled because of their inflated stats and inability to play a complete game or battle through real defense to produce points. Crosby, obviously, is a one in ten thousand kind of player, but he's a good example of someone who had all the chops offensively but also the mental game to play at both ends of the ice. But it took him a few years to stop whining all of the time and finally battle through adversity even when he didn't get the calls.

RD wrote:I like Fox but the kid has a fucking mountain to climb to get here, not a very good skater and in the small side 6'0" - 180 lbs. Bad combination which is why the scouts say he would have gone in the 2nd or 3rd round in this years draft if he were eligible

A giant with soft hands - Mantha? Fucking sign me up. Anyhow Hockey Canada thought enough of him to keep him on this years World Junior Team, not to mention that the kid put up there.


Fox is currently listed at 6'0" - 185lbs, he's an inch taller, and the same weight as Crosby when Sid entered the league. Granted he's almost 2 years older. No, I don't think he's a Crosby in the making, just a size comparison as you seem too be ready to dismissive regarding his chances and point to his size as a reason. But enough about Fox and Crosby, because beyond size they are not in the same ballpark as players.

Mantha is listed at 6' 4" - 187lbs.....ummmm..... :look:

He's a bean pole. Sure he can fill out, and probably add 20 lbs to his frame, maybe 25. He's almost a year younger than Fox, so I figure that Fox can add 10-15 lbs if Mantha can add 20-25. So I think we can put the size issue aside at this point. As for skating, the scouting reports on Fox say he is actually a decent skater with good speed, he's doesn't have great speed, but he is above average. All that it points out is that he needs to work on his first step, and there plenty of players who enter the NHL ranks and need to work on their foot speed, particularly their first step explosiveness. Mantha is called a very good skater who has difficulty keeping his feet moving and struggles with consistency issues.

I for one really like Mantha's knack for scoring goals. He does seem to have an almost supernatural touch around the net, pucks just find a way to get by the goaltender when they come off of his stick. But I also think that some of these numbers are inflated by the inexperienced defense at the junior level. I'd say half of his goals at the WJC would not even have been chances at the NHL level. There were a few of his assists that were the result of him losing the puck and a teammate picking it up, he's a shoot first kind of guy, which is good, I like that after years of watching the Sedins do everything but shoot the puck when they get a look at the net, but Mantha could very well be a bust at the NHL level if his consistency doesn't improve.

I also like the fact that Fox has been snubbed at the pro level so far. That generally motivates a player, and when they get a shot at it they make the most of it. I'm not saying I take Fox over Mantha one way or the other, I really haven't seen either of them play very much first hand, in fact I haven't seen Fox play at all, just some highlights, but going just off of the reports and what I watched of Mantha at the WJC, I have to say that I think he could be one of those 1st round picks who plays a lot of years in the AHL as a dominant offensive player but never translates to the NHL level.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:45 am

Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:
Come to your senses man, straight up we ain't getting a top 5 pick for Edler, straight up we might be able to get Mantha and Smith. Sign me up cause the Q is producing some of Canada's brightest offensive stars lately - McKinnon and Drouin.


Don't forget some of the current NHL superstars.....Crosby comes to mind. :P

The Q is all about offense, there are plenty of players who came into the NHL from the Q that fizzled because of their inflated stats and inability to play a complete game or battle through real defense to produce points. Crosby, obviously, is a one in ten thousand kind of player, but he's a good example of someone who had all the chops offensively but also the mental game to play at both ends of the ice. But it took him a few years to stop whining all of the time and finally battle through adversity even when he didn't get the calls.

RD wrote:I like Fox but the kid has a fucking mountain to climb to get here, not a very good skater and in the small side 6'0" - 180 lbs. Bad combination which is why the scouts say he would have gone in the 2nd or 3rd round in this years draft if he were eligible

A giant with soft hands - Mantha? Fucking sign me up. Anyhow Hockey Canada thought enough of him to keep him on this years World Junior Team, not to mention that the kid put up there.


Fox is currently listed at 6'0" - 185lbs, he's an inch taller, and the same weight as Crosby when Sid entered the league. Granted he's almost 2 years older. No, I don't think he's a Crosby in the making, just a size comparison as you seem too be ready to dismissive regarding his chances and point to his size as a reason. But enough about Fox and Crosby, because beyond size they are not in the same ballpark as players.

Mantha is listed at 6' 4" - 187lbs.....ummmm..... :look:

He's a bean pole. Sure he can fill out, and probably add 20 lbs to his frame, maybe 25. He's almost a year younger than Fox, so I figure that Fox can add 10-15 lbs if Mantha can add 20-25. So I think we can put the size issue aside at this point. As for skating, the scouting reports on Fox say he is actually a decent skater with good speed, he's doesn't have great speed, but he is above average. All that it points out is that he needs to work on his first step, and there plenty of players who enter the NHL ranks and need to work on their foot speed, particularly their first step explosiveness. Mantha is called a very good skater who has difficulty keeping his feet moving and struggles with consistency issues.

I for one really like Mantha's knack for scoring goals. He does seem to have an almost supernatural touch around the net, pucks just find a way to get by the goaltender when they come off of his stick. But I also think that some of these numbers are inflated by the inexperienced defense at the junior level. I'd say half of his goals at the WJC would not even have been chances at the NHL level. There were a few of his assists that were the result of him losing the puck and a teammate picking it up, he's a shoot first kind of guy, which is good, I like that after years of watching the Sedins do everything but shoot the puck when they get a look at the net, but Mantha could very well be a bust at the NHL level if his consistency doesn't improve.

I also like the fact that Fox has been snubbed at the pro level so far. That generally motivates a player, and when they get a shot at it they make the most of it. I'm not saying I take Fox over Mantha one way or the other, I really haven't seen either of them play very much first hand, in fact I haven't seen Fox play at all, just some highlights, but going just off of the reports and what I watched of Mantha at the WJC, I have to say that I think he could be one of those 1st round picks who plays a lot of years in the AHL as a dominant offensive player but never translates to the NHL level.


Call it a hunch, but something tells me that if Mantha was a Canuck prospect and Fox was a Detroit prospect, Meds would he pro Mantha and anti-Fox. Just a hunch as it was Meds who said Tatar will forever be in the minors.

Again, general consensus has the small and slower Fox going 2nd or 3rd round I this years draft if eligible

Anyhow, according to you Fox will be the size of Horvat once filled out? The I guess once Horvat fills out he won't be able to fit through a front door. Who are these kids who keep growing past 20 if they are not taking steroids or pounding beers Blobby Mac style?
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Meds » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:49 am

dbr wrote:A WJC selection isn't everything, neither is a good outing once you're there.


Yep. What ever happened to Jeff Glass and Nigel Dawes? Shawn Belle? Stephen Dixon? Jeremy Colliton?

All part of the 2005 Canadian team that was widely considered to be the best WJC team ever.

How long has it taken the Canucks own Jordan Schroeder to break into the NHL? He was taken 22nd overall, 2 ahead of where Mantha was taken 5 years later. Wait, 5 years? And he's still a question mark at the NHL level? He lit it up for the American junior teams that he played for.....

Very good point dbr.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:03 am

Meds wrote:
dbr wrote:A WJC selection isn't everything, neither is a good outing once you're there.


Yep. What ever happened to Jeff Glass and Nigel Dawes? Shawn Belle? Stephen Dixon? Jeremy Colliton?

All part of the 2005 Canadian team that was widely considered to be the best WJC team ever.

How long has it taken the Canucks own Jordan Schroeder to break into the NHL? He was taken 22nd overall, 2 ahead of where Mantha was taken 5 years later. Wait, 5 years? And he's still a question mark at the NHL level? He lit it up for the American junior teams that he played for.....

Very good point dbr.


Why don't we meet in the middle Tatar Meds, for every Schroeder there is a Giroux, for every Sauve there is an Edler, for every Rodin there is a Marchand, for every Mallet, there is an O'Reilly. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. My money is on Mantha
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Meds » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:07 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:
Come to your senses man, straight up we ain't getting a top 5 pick for Edler, straight up we might be able to get Mantha and Smith. Sign me up cause the Q is producing some of Canada's brightest offensive stars lately - McKinnon and Drouin.


Don't forget some of the current NHL superstars.....Crosby comes to mind. :P

The Q is all about offense, there are plenty of players who came into the NHL from the Q that fizzled because of their inflated stats and inability to play a complete game or battle through real defense to produce points. Crosby, obviously, is a one in ten thousand kind of player, but he's a good example of someone who had all the chops offensively but also the mental game to play at both ends of the ice. But it took him a few years to stop whining all of the time and finally battle through adversity even when he didn't get the calls.

RD wrote:I like Fox but the kid has a fucking mountain to climb to get here, not a very good skater and in the small side 6'0" - 180 lbs. Bad combination which is why the scouts say he would have gone in the 2nd or 3rd round in this years draft if he were eligible

A giant with soft hands - Mantha? Fucking sign me up. Anyhow Hockey Canada thought enough of him to keep him on this years World Junior Team, not to mention that the kid put up there.


Fox is currently listed at 6'0" - 185lbs, he's an inch taller, and the same weight as Crosby when Sid entered the league. Granted he's almost 2 years older. No, I don't think he's a Crosby in the making, just a size comparison as you seem too be ready to dismissive regarding his chances and point to his size as a reason. But enough about Fox and Crosby, because beyond size they are not in the same ballpark as players.

Mantha is listed at 6' 4" - 187lbs.....ummmm..... :look:

He's a bean pole. Sure he can fill out, and probably add 20 lbs to his frame, maybe 25. He's almost a year younger than Fox, so I figure that Fox can add 10-15 lbs if Mantha can add 20-25. So I think we can put the size issue aside at this point. As for skating, the scouting reports on Fox say he is actually a decent skater with good speed, he's doesn't have great speed, but he is above average. All that it points out is that he needs to work on his first step, and there plenty of players who enter the NHL ranks and need to work on their foot speed, particularly their first step explosiveness. Mantha is called a very good skater who has difficulty keeping his feet moving and struggles with consistency issues.

I for one really like Mantha's knack for scoring goals. He does seem to have an almost supernatural touch around the net, pucks just find a way to get by the goaltender when they come off of his stick. But I also think that some of these numbers are inflated by the inexperienced defense at the junior level. I'd say half of his goals at the WJC would not even have been chances at the NHL level. There were a few of his assists that were the result of him losing the puck and a teammate picking it up, he's a shoot first kind of guy, which is good, I like that after years of watching the Sedins do everything but shoot the puck when they get a look at the net, but Mantha could very well be a bust at the NHL level if his consistency doesn't improve.

I also like the fact that Fox has been snubbed at the pro level so far. That generally motivates a player, and when they get a shot at it they make the most of it. I'm not saying I take Fox over Mantha one way or the other, I really haven't seen either of them play very much first hand, in fact I haven't seen Fox play at all, just some highlights, but going just off of the reports and what I watched of Mantha at the WJC, I have to say that I think he could be one of those 1st round picks who plays a lot of years in the AHL as a dominant offensive player but never translates to the NHL level.


Call it a hunch, but something tells me that if Mantha was a Canuck prospect and Fox was a Detroit prospect, Meds would he pro Mantha and anti-Fox. Just a hunch as it was Meds who said Tatar will forever be in the minors.

Again, general consensus has the small and slower Fox going 2nd or 3rd round I this years draft if eligible


First of all, I am neither pro nor con when it comes to Fox. I just countered your point. I also said that I like a lot of what Mantha brings, but again, I was just balancing your assessment of Mantha. But feel free to cherry pick what you want.

They both could go either way, and I do try to stay optimistic about our prospects, especially considering how depleted our cupboards were a few seasons ago. You are absolutely right, if Mantha had been picked up by the Canucks I would definitely be hoping he would pan out and hit his potential, and I would be excited to hear that we had someone who was considered to be a pure goal scorer. But when I compare Fox and Mantha's stats.....

Fox: 52GP 54G 35A 89P +35 103PIM
Mantha: 42GP 43G 47A 90P +18 44PIM

Seems like Fox is the pure goal scorer (lower overall PPG but still coring more goals than GP) and Mantha is a more rounded offensive talent.

Fox has also more than doubled Mantha's time in the penalty box and more than doubled his plus/minus.

So really, who should I be higher on here Dude? Our prospect who is producing more goals in a tougher league? Or Detroit's prospect who is only slightly better PPG-wise but less of a contributor in other areas? I'm thinking most of us should be more pro Fox than Mantha at this point. But you just go on your hunches.

As for Tatar, you'll have to dig that post up. I don't remember even talking about him much at all unless it was in regards to some crazy highlight.....
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Meds » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:21 am

Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Call it a hunch, but something tells me that if Mantha was a Canuck prospect and Fox was a Detroit prospect, Meds would he pro Mantha and anti-Fox. Just a hunch as it was Meds who said Tatar will forever be in the minors.

...


...

As for Tatar, you'll have to dig that post up. I don't remember even talking about him much at all unless it was in regards to some crazy highlight.....


Seriously Dude, you're gonna have to quote that. I searched all my posts in GDT and Hockey Talk. There is only one outside of this current conversation and that was a GDT where you asked me about him and I replied by saying I didn't see the game.

Thanks though.....
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Topper » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:35 am

A couple of years ago I heard an interview with Ken Holland and he was asked about the Redwing's drafting strategy and how they unearthed some late round gems.

One of his comments stuck out and that was the importance of players to have played for their national squads at some age level.
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