Canucks News and Notes

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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby ClamRussel » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:50 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:I'm with Torts on this one.

Until Kassian improves his defensive game, and attitude, then fuck him.

Nothing should be handed to the kid. Let him earn it. He's talented enough.

Sedins, Kesler, and Burrows all "paid their dues" on the bottom 6 while becoming more well rounded players. Let Kassian do the same.


Kesler and especially Burrows, yes.

The Sedins hardly paid their dues towards earning icetime. They walked into the league and were handed the 2nd PP unit on a silver platter despite their weak play for years. Our 2nd PP unit was a disaster w/ them on it when they clearly weren't ready. It was outrageous the amount of icetime the Sedins received under Crawford. Their results at the time didn't warrant it and what did they do to earn it? Most fans on here wanted to run Crawford out of town for this favouritism. They started as 3rd liners w/ regular PP time and no time on the 4th line w/ 4min of ice or being scratched.

Ah, but look how they turned out.

There's a case there for letting certain players learn as they play and living with their mistakes because the return at the end is worth it. Like Blob said, he should definitely be on the PP. Our PP doesn't have a big man in front of the net and desperately could use it. Perhaps Kassian w/ the Twins isn't a good fit defensively right now but he should either be w/ Selke winning Kesler or w/ Santorelli on the 3rd line and on one of the 2 PP units. He's got the skill to warrant it. Perhaps like the Sedins he just needs someone to believe in him & work with him on his defensive play.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby ClamRussel » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:56 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:I'm all for keeping him in a bottom-6 role for the 5on5 play, his development and play definitely calls for that. But when your PP is as fucking awful as ours has been over the past year, it's worth a shot to try a guy like that out. Putting him with the Sedins in those situations probably boosts his confidence in all areas of play, and in the playoffs (if we make them) should keep other players from taking liberties with the Sedins after the whistle.


Look at the success Gretzky & Kurri had w/ Semenko as an anchor tied around their ankles. Kassian has 10x the offensive talent Semenko did and, while not as scary, he could easily create some room for them & keep the opposing team a bit more honest. Bure did just fine w/ Odjick on his line. Unlike some of the parroting that goes on, its not about Kassian "earning" his ice time w/ the Sedins but rather he might be the best fit for them now on this current roster. Skill aside, he also serves a purpose. Work the corners, go to the net & bang home the garbage....and ya, drop the gloves when teams try to bully the Twins.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Vader » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:12 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Sedins have never played bottom six on this team . Ever.


*Manual Buzzer*

Sedins played behind and received less ice time than the WCE, and Cassels/ Linden / Schaefer / Hlavac etc between 2000 - 2002

Avg ice time for them ranged from a low of 12:22 (Daniel) and a high of 13:58 (Henrik) in their first three years.

That's firmly in the third line territory.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:27 pm

It may be third line territory and perhaps I was wrong. :evil: . My point being ( I think Clam brought it up too) though is that they were gifted 40 - 50 seconds on every single PP that team got back then regardless of how shitty they looked out there. There were many, many ,many games in a row where the twins and Trent Klatt looked like absolute trash yet they still kept getting a healthy dose of icetime with ample pp time. I think that's all some folks want to see Kassian get- a bit of a fair shake which he seems to be slowly getting under Torts. AV however had zero use for the kid.

Jan Hlavac was hardly a factor here in his illustrious 55 games. Some of the icetime they gave him was likely so that they could fatten him up to move him.

The likes of Glassels, Linden and Schaefer may have played a few more minutes than the twins but there's no way those players got close to the amount of pp time and mollycoddling that the twins received. The twins and Klatt were defintely counted on to be this teams 2nd wave of offence in those early years.
Edit- Glassels did play a lot of pp time on the point but my point stands.
Last edited by Blob Mckenzie on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:28 pm

Vader hit the nail on the head, but Clam makes some excellent points going the other way.

Ditto for Blob and Isle Nuck.

I think it's a judgement call. Perhaps the Sedins' were given 3rd line ice time and 2nd line PP time when they started, but their attitudes were always great.

Can we say the same about Kassian?

One fear I have is that we GIVE Kassian that top line spot, he has some short term success, and then turns into a prima Donna.

Once upon a time (in a nursery rhyme!) we saw this happen in Canuck land. The year was 2001 and the prima donna's name was Todd Bertuzzi. Like Kassian, he was shitty in his own end, but had the potential to be a brute strength up front. He maximized his potential after being GIVEN the top spot.

End result? He had 1-2 excellent seasons, while turning into a prima donna. As result, Bertuzzi ended up being a one dimensional player with very limited leadership skills. Ultimately, Bertuzzi ended up being more of a liability than an asset for us. His extremely lazy defensive play and shitty attitude between the years 2004-2006 hurt this team.

Personally speaking? I'd rather see Kassian earn his spot and have the chance of mentally maturing, while developing a stronger two-way game. If it doesn't pan out? Then, by all means, move him up eventually. Just don't do it right now and "gift" him that spot and risk creating a one-dimensional prima Donna.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:00 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:Once upon a time (in a nursery rhyme!) we saw this happen in Canuck land. The year was 2001 and the prima donna's name was Todd Bertuzzi. Like Kassian, he was shitty in his own end, but had the potential to be a brute strength up front. He maximized his potential after being GIVEN the top spot.

End result? He had 1-2 excellent seasons, while turning into a prima donna. As result, Bertuzzi ended up being a one dimensional player with very limited leadership skills. Ultimately, Bertuzzi ended up being more of a liability than an asset for us. His extremely lazy defensive play and shitty attitude between the years 2004-2006 hurt this team.


Is this the same Todd Bertuzzi that had a better PPG than league-leading Iginla (still finished 3rd in league scoring) in 10 less games, and was the only top-10 scorer with more than 100pims in 2001-02? You mean the Todd Bertuzzi that was 5th in league scoring (3rd in goals) in 02-03. The Bertuzzi that had 5 (out of 8) 25 goal seasons with the Canucks? The Bertuzzi we parlayed into Roberto Luongo?!

Jesus Titty Fucking Christ, Farhan... if Kassian turns into Bertuzzi we are laughing our asses off!
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Topper » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:12 pm

They were two of the top 3 overall picks in their draft class for fucks sake. They spent a season on the third line, Daniel still potted 20 (10 on the P), but by their second year, they had climbed to the second/third line duty in a very shallow talent pool.

High 1st round picks on a team that had very little depth. The competed with an aged Linden, Cassel, Cooke, Chubarov and Klatt for ice time.

Give your heads a shake folks. Zach Kassian is no Daniel Sedin.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Topper » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:24 pm

ClamRussel wrote:Look at the success Gretzky & Kurri had w/ Semenko as an anchor tied around their ankles. Kassian has 10x the offensive talent Semenko did and, while not as scary, he could easily create some room for them & keep the opposing team a bit more honest. Bure did just fine w/ Odjick on his line. Unlike some of the parroting that goes on, its not about Kassian "earning" his ice time w/ the Sedins but rather he might be the best fit for them now on this current roster. Skill aside, he also serves a purpose. Work the corners, go to the net & bang home the garbage....and ya, drop the gloves when teams try to bully the Twins.

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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby The Brown Knight » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:17 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:Is this the same Todd Bertuzzi that had a better PPG than league-leading Iginla (still finished 3rd in league scoring) in 10 less games, and was the only top-10 scorer with more than 100pims in 2001-02? You mean the Todd Bertuzzi that was 5th in league scoring (3rd in goals) in 02-03. The Bertuzzi that had 5 (out of 8) 25 goal seasons with the Canucks? The Bertuzzi we parlayed into Roberto Luongo?!

Jesus Titty Fucking Christ, Farhan... if Kassian turns into Bertuzzi we are laughing our asses off!


Agreed......and yes, you are correct.

Now, I want you to imagine this same Todd Bertuzzi, as having a more developed two way game while also having a better "non-entitlement" attitude. Think a Todd Bertuzzi like that would have been an elite player for more than 2 seasons? Think instead of Todd Bertuzzi, we would have had a Jarome Iginla clone instead?

All I'm saying is this: Let's try and build Kassian a good foundation.....a foundation being built on having "earned" his way up to the top, and on a foundation of where his defensive game isn't a liability like Bertuzzi's was. He doesn't have to be a defensive stalwart, but he shouldn't be a defensive pansy either (I.e. Like Iginla in his prime).

Let's face it. In all likelihood, Kassian won't hit his peak (if he ever does) until the next generation of Canucks are impact players. I'm talking about a time when Horvat, Shinkaruk, etc. are all here.

Let's take the long term approach with Kassian. Give him time to become the most well rounded player that he can possibly be, and give him some time to work on his attitude. Let him develop his leadership skills (I.e. Like Iginla).

From what I see, it is NOT a good sign to see Kassian "drifting" out there on the bottom 6 due to a lack of enthusiasm. It's not a sign of good character, and it's not the type of guys we want leading this club.

If Kassian shows good hustle and enthusiasm throughout the season, and gets a little better defensively (again - not talking Selke trophy here......just to the point where he's not a liability), THEN I would seriously consider moving him up towards the end of the season as we had into the playoffs.


P.s. I hope these Bertuzzi/Iginla talks don't confuse people on here. For the record, I think it's fairly unlikely that Kassian becomes as good as either of those were in their primes. The point I'm trying to my however, is that making him "earn" his way to the top, while also allowing him to develop his character, leadership, and defensive game ( to the point where it's not a liability) would make him more of an "Iginla mold" rather than a "Bertuzzi mold."

I'd rather Kassian be a poor man's Iginla rather than a poor man's Bertuzzi one day.
Last edited by The Brown Knight on Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Hockey Widow » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:23 am

I remember many discussions about the twins not having to pay their dues and many discussions about whether they should be sent to the minors for a period if time. They had the benefit of a great first line and stable second/third line in front of them along with a strong D. No question they worked hard but their skating was problematic. It is something they have wirked on. As far as defence and I remember them being good defensively and getting PK time. Of course they didn't have to match up to many top 3 or top 6 for quite a while.

They had the benefit of being top 3 draft picks, playing together and the extra years in Sweden. One thing about them is I don't ever remember them being lazy or out of shape. They have always had a great work ethic and have always worked hard at improving deficiencies in their game.

They invited Kassian one summer to work out with them. I wonder if that will be repeated? He needs mentoring on how to be a professional and on how to prepare off the ice. I have seen him hustle and back check more in recent games but he is still a work in progress. I think giving him some shifts every game and a chance on the PP here and there will give good benefit for him. But there is no question he has to show more consistency on the D side.

As for Bert, this us the guy that played an awful lot like Kassian with the NYI. the NYI even had Gillies work with him to try and help him develop. They gave up on him a year just before he broke out. They were frustrated with his lazy play and non commitment to D. It wasn't until he got to Vancouver and became part of the WCE that he blossomed. But he was one of the most frustrating players to watch because he was lazy and was a huge liability in the D zone. I was advocating for his trade a year before it happened because I was tired of his defensive play. I was thrilled we got rid of him and landed Luongo.

And I was a huge Bert supporter!!

Kassian needs the right coaching and mentoring. I like how Torts is bringing him along but I would like to see him get some spot duty with the twins, as a carrot.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby The Brown Knight » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:30 am

Hockey Widow wrote:They had the benefit of being top 3 draft picks, playing together and the extra years in Sweden. One thing about them is I don't ever remember them being lazy or out of shape. They have always had a great work ethic and have always worked hard at improving deficiencies in their game.



You hit the nail on the head here.

While it 's true that the Sedins' may have been given a large amount of ice-time during their growth phase, their character and work ethic was already quite solid. No laziness, no being out of shape, and no indifferent attitudes.

Kassian has been guilty of all 3 of those......and as result, I do not feel comfortable in playing him with the twins right now.......even if it results in short term success. Kassian "developing" into a poor man's Todd Bertuzzi would be cancerous to the team and to the organization. If you "gift" Kassian that spot with the twins, that's exactly the road he'd be heading down.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby The Brown Knight » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:35 am

Hockey Widow wrote:Kassian needs the right coaching and mentoring. I like how Torts is bringing him along but I would like to see him get some spot duty with the twins, as a carrot.



Now this, I can live with.

If Kassian goes 5-6 games with a solid effort on the bottom 6 ( showing good hustle, enthusiasm, and more commitment on defense), then by all means, reward the guy with a few games/shifts or some power play time with the twins.

The more consistency Kassian shows, the more slack and more opportunity you give him.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby ClamRussel » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:56 am

Topper wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:Look at the success Gretzky & Kurri had w/ Semenko as an anchor tied around their ankles. Kassian has 10x the offensive talent Semenko did and, while not as scary, he could easily create some room for them & keep the opposing team a bit more honest. Bure did just fine w/ Odjick on his line. Unlike some of the parroting that goes on, its not about Kassian "earning" his ice time w/ the Sedins but rather he might be the best fit for them now on this current roster. Skill aside, he also serves a purpose. Work the corners, go to the net & bang home the garbage....and ya, drop the gloves when teams try to bully the Twins.

How is it living beside that brook under a bridge?


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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby ClamRussel » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:11 am

Hockey Widow wrote:They invited Kassian one summer to work out with them. I wonder if that will be repeated? He needs mentoring on how to be a professional and on how to prepare off the ice. I have seen him hustle and back check more in recent games but he is still a work in progress. I think giving him some shifts every game and a chance on the PP here and there will give good benefit for him. But there is no question he has to show more consistency on the D side.


The more time Kassian spends w/ the Twins off the ice the better, especially in the off season and in regards to training. In fact, bringing Linden back to work w/ the young players would be a good idea. Linden had a good influence on others like McLean back in the day in terms of training and professionalism. (Did we ever replace the position Gagner had?) Kassian coming into his own this year or next would be perfect timing for the arrival of other young players like Horvat and Gaunce. These are the guys he will have to grow with and, if he pans out, we'll have quite a solid crop of young forwards. Not superstars but well rounded lunch bucket players w/ decent skill. I look forward to those 3 with Shinkaruk in a few years.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Vader » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:24 am

The Brown Knight wrote:
I'd rather Kassian be a poor man's Iginla rather than a poor man's Bertuzzi one day.


The comparison's to Bertuzzi / Lucic or whomever are unfair to Kassian. He simply doesn't have the hands of a Bertuzzi or the shot of Neely. A better comparison, IMHO, is a bigger version of Scott Mellanby or a little more skilled version of Darren McCarty or Brad May. He'll never become a Bertuzzi or a Neely - and he doesn't need to be to be a very valuable player to the team.

For now, he needs to show a lot more than he has to get more ice time
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