Canucks News and Notes

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dbr
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by dbr » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:38 am

ESQ wrote:
BurningBeard wrote: This is a great read:
http://canucksarmy.com/2014/5/27/ron-de ... epartments

It also, notes some of Benning's stats.
That was interesting.

What really jumped out at me from this analysis is that it doesn't account for Bourdon, and he would have significantly skewed the results.

In the Delorme era of 2000-2011, the Canucks missed the playoffs twice (including 99-00). That meant low draft picks, which I think means that Canucks drafting should be judged against other "perennially good" teams, and not teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, etc. Comparable teams for that era would be Ottawa (missed playoffs twice), Detroit (never missed playoffs), New Jersey (missed playoffs once). Other early-2000s powerhouses like St Louis and Dallas both racked up a bunch of high draft picks in the post-lockout era.

By my (very rudimentary) math, had Bourdon lived and played in the NHL, he'd have another 400-500 games under his belt. This would at least put the Canucks drafting record closer to Detroit's in virtually every category, though still nowhere near Ottawa or Buffalo in the Benning era. The Canucks' record would be better than New Jersey at least.

The other thing that jumps out is how few picks the Canucks had over those 12 years compared to other teams.

I'm no fan of Delorme, but I think its fair to lay some of the blame at the feet of management for trading away so many picks. Burke, Nonis and Gillis were all guilty of this.
That article is the same author who gave us this dreck (and he glowingly refers to his own conclusions in the article above) so I have a bit of a hard time taking it seriously.. lots of faulty analysis (some of which you've pointed out), even if it's rare to see other outlets put in this much effort into measuring draft success.

It's a shame that table was published as an image, it would be nice to be able to pull those numbers out and try to make something more meaningful out of it.. although at the end of the day the problems with "games played = successful pick" are just too much. Any system where Shawn Thornton is a better pick than a guy that played double the ice time in fifty fewer games, or where Chris Phillips at 1st overall is about as successful as Zdeno Chara at 56th, is just.. yeah. And the league is littered with examples like that. Who's the better draft pick, Lee Stempniak or Jeff Carter? Milan Michalek or Zach Parise? Etc..

Maybe some day, someone out there will compile the total career time on ice for players and a more meaningful examination can be made by someone willing to correct for quality of selections. Even still any examination would be pretty flawed, but.. it would be much closer than what we've got here.

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SKYO
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by SKYO » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:39 am

The Prospector: Cassels, McCann, and Forsling off to great start

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2014/10/14 ... eat-start/
This season, Cassels is scoring at that exact pace, with 12 points in his first 8 games, leading the Oshawa Generals in points. That’s without Scott Laughton, who graduated to professional hockey this season and without Michael Dal Colle for 4 of those games.

His 12 points are good for 6th in the OHL in scoring. If he continues to score at this pace, he’ll be a lock for Team USA at the World Junior tournament, whose camp he was invited to during the summer but missed due to illness.
Coming off a bout with mono, McCann got right back into the swing of things with the Greyhounds, scoring 5 points in his first two games before being held off the scoresheet in his third game. That’s the kind of start the Canucks were surely hoping for and it’s impressive that he was able to perform so well after recovering from his illness.

The Canucks are hoping that McCann can continue to play a strong two-way game, while significantly developing his offence, similar to what Cassels accomplished last season. The early indications are that he’s prepared to do exactly that.
While he has just 2 points in 10 games, he’s steadily moved up the lineup, averaging 15-17 minutes per game early, but jumping up to 20-22 minutes per game over his last three games. That’s a great sign for Forsling and the Canucks, as playing big minutes against men will certainly help his development.

Even just sticking with the senior team is a good sign; he’s one of just four 18-year-olds to have played 10 games in the SHL so far this season, though there’s one other that has played 9 games and two 17-year-olds.

Forsling has earned rave reviews from his coach, Roger Melin, comparing him to Magnus Johansson, the captain of Linköping, who had just a short stint in the NHL, but has been one of the SHL’s best defencemen for years and a mainstay on the Swedish national team. The comparison seems apt; though they are 23 years apart, the two defencemen are both undersized and known for their great shots. Heck, he might not even be as undersized as he once was: he’s now listed at 6’0″.

While Forsling will likely need to bring some more offence to his game in order to eventually break into the NHL, it’s the defensive side of his game that will likely keep him in the SHL this season.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by rats19 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:48 pm

You are who you hang with.....

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Hockey Widow
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by Hockey Widow » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:57 pm

Too bad they couldn't do this a week ago. We could put him in the line up tomorrow. I suspect we will see Edmonton's tough guys tomorrow.
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SKYO
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by SKYO » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:25 pm

Whose going to do the next GDT! :o
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by RoyalDude » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:48 pm

SKYO wrote:Whose going to do the next GDT! :o
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mathonwy
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by mathonwy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:30 am

According to Skeletor, Garrison was asked to waive his NTC this summer for a trade to the Blues. He declined.

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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by donlever » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:00 pm

I think this is fairly old news.

At the time it was rumored that Berglund was the focal point of that discussion but Garrison said go fuck your hat when that was being tabled (allegedly).

From Friedman:

It’s thought that the Canucks and Oilers tried to trade for Blues Patrik Berglund. Berglund more likely to remain in St. Louis after the departure of Vladimir Sobotka.

Talk that the Blues tried to trade for Jason Garrison before he was dealt to Tampa Bay
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by ESQ » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:09 pm

dbr wrote:[

That article is the same author who gave us this dreck (and he glowingly refers to his own conclusions in the article above) so I have a bit of a hard time taking it seriously.. lots of faulty analysis (some of which you've pointed out), even if it's rare to see other outlets put in this much effort into measuring draft success.
Somebody posted a more in-depth article in the comments of your link which focuses on Shero's bad drafting and development in Pittsburgh. Check out the data in the infographics - the Canucks' picks don't even register in most of the charts because they haven't developed a single NHL forward (outside of first round picks) since 2006! They uploaded the spreadsheets as well so you do have the actual data.

Again, its just another methodology that is flawed in some way, but it also points to atrocious results in the Canucks drafting and developing talent. And while I personally think that the lack of top-5 picks has given the scouts very little to work with, the same scouts have obviously not done a good job of working with what they got.

Having 4 first-round picks in 2 years is a good step in the right direction. Having 2 picks in the top 10 is also huge, since the Canucks only had 3 top-10 picks in the 20 years prior to BoHo (Bryan Allen and the Sedins).

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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by Hockey Widow » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:28 pm

donlever wrote:I think this is fairly old news.

At the time it was rumored that Berglund was the focal point of that discussion but Garrison said go fuck your hat when that was being tabled (allegedly).

From Friedman:

It’s thought that the Canucks and Oilers tried to trade for Blues Patrik Berglund. Berglund more likely to remain in St. Louis after the departure of Vladimir Sobotka.

Talk that the Blues tried to trade for Jason Garrison before he was dealt to Tampa Bay
Thanks Donnie. I reported at the time , smug little bitch eh, that the Canucks had a deal in place with the Blues for a straight up swap of Berglund for Garrison. They then told him he did not fit in the top 4 now nor the top six going forward. He was devastated and not only said no to that deal but refused to consider waiving his NTC.

Canucks asked a second time, same answer. Canucks asked a third time and he left town and said no to the Blues, simply does not like the city, but that he would think about waiving his NTC. A few days later he agreed to waive to either Florida based team. Panthers had already said no to him when the Canucks were trying to get the first overall pick. He was being packaged with our first and a lesser prospect.

Tampa knew we were stuck but we did get the 2nd which we then offered to LA for Vey. They said yes conditional upon whether 1 of the guys they had targeted at the number was available.

So we could have had Berglund but we got Vey. Time will tell if this is a good thing.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by donlever » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:38 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:So we could have had Berglund but we got Vey. Time will tell if this is a good thing.

...and the smug little bitch hath spoken!


(Berglund > Vey)

:-(
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by Spock » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:46 pm

We couldn't have had Berglund - Canucks wanted the deal but with Garrison hold the NTC - couldn't make it happen.

Have I expressed lately my hatred of NTCs? For this club they are like anchors on the rebuilding/re-tooling of the club.

And while hatred is not logical - neither are NTCs......
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Per
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by Per » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:08 pm

Spock wrote:We couldn't have had Berglund - Canucks wanted the deal but with Garrison hold the NTC - couldn't make it happen.

Have I expressed lately my hatred of NTCs? For this club they are like anchors on the rebuilding/re-tooling of the club.

And while hatred is not logical - neither are NTCs......
Well, NTCs give you cap space. The players accept a lower offer in exchange for it.

So the GM has a choice between paying more to be flexible or paying less but then having more restricted options in future trades. Sometimes handing out an NTC is the smarter choice - how many millions have the twins forfeited to be guaranteed to stay in Vancouver? Sometimes it is a stupid choice. It's not a black and white issue.

I can agree though that the Canucks may have granted too many players NTCs.
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Per
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by Per » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:10 pm

And it is good to see you, Spock! :)

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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Post by donlever » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:16 pm

Per wrote:And it is good to see you, Spock! :)

Live long and prosper!
Yeah Spock.

Good to see you.

:scowl:
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