Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Knucklehead » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:14 am

Hockey Widow wrote:Lack has looked good thus far.

We will get the twins locked up so our so called window hasn't closed. For the first time in years we have some promising prospects up front and withe pick up of Stanton and Corrado in Utica our D core looks good too.

This has got to be one of our better Octobers and so far this season I am pleased with where we are.


Yes, I'm liking the look of this team early, funny fact the Nucks record on this extended road trip is better than the Blues season record thus far although they have only played 8 games.

Weird scheduling so far the Canucks have played more games than any other team at 13, Buffallo second with 12 , the Blues and the Rangers with 8 each.

We've also played more away games than any other team in the league, having played 9 for 22% of our away games,the Rangers are second with 8 away games.
Knucklehead
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby tantalum » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:21 am

Yep Lack has looked pretty good in the early going this season. But just like Tanev, because he wasn't drafted he doesn't count as a prospect find by the Gillis regime.....

Pretty gutsy win. They were clearly exhausted in the third but stuck with the game plan, got a few good saves and then with all that hard work finally came a break.

Elsewhere...those Avs keep on ticking. Roy has them playing a pretty decent team game on offense and they are getting goals. But at some point the goaltenders are going to stop making 35-40 saves a night.

Leafs are regressing and will in be in that cluster of 5th-12th place soon.

Hey Buffalo got a win! I wonder when the next will come?

And Pittsburgh still needs some goaltending.
User avatar
tantalum
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:41 am
Location: Carl Junction, MO

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:18 pm

tantalum wrote:Yep Lack has looked pretty good in the early going this season. But just like Tanev, because he wasn't drafted he doesn't count as a prospect find by the Gillis regime.....

Pretty gutsy win. They were clearly exhausted in the third but stuck with the game plan, got a few good saves and then with all that hard work finally came a break.

Elsewhere...those Avs keep on ticking. Roy has them playing a pretty decent team game on offense and they are getting goals. But at some point the goaltenders are going to stop making 35-40 saves a night.

Leafs are regressing and will in be in that cluster of 5th-12th place soon.

Hey Buffalo got a win! I wonder when the next will come?

And Pittsburgh still needs some goaltending.


Canucks fans have been pretty spoiled having two capable goalies for the past couple seasons, and it looks like Lack will continue that trend.

The Avalanche definitely have some pieces, and they are a much more balanced team, ready to take that next step... unlike the Oilers who are very top heavy and lack capable defenders and goaltending.

Buffalo will be aiming for a 1st overall draft pick this year.

M.A. Fleury is actually rebounding nicely. 7-1 with a .930 and a 1.74... not too shabby. It's too bad the Pens will need him to play 70+ games this season...
User avatar
Island Nucklehead
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4012
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby herb » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:41 pm

Vader wrote:Horvat may become an excellent player for the Canucks but no matter how well Horvat plays, the trade is a loss because Gillis should have got more.


That logic is absolutely terrible because we have no idea what Horvat will become. If he becomes Steve Yzerman reincarnate, we win that trade hands down. If he becomes Natham Smith reincarnate, obviously that trade was awful.

HW pretty much summed up my feelings perfectly.

Things could not really be going much better right now.

Despite the media driven narrative, Torts is not a megalomaniac psycho. Amazing, but he actually seems like a level headed, intelligent and competent head coach.

The backbone of this team (Defense, Luongo, Hank, and Kesler) all look great. We finally have some promising prospects; at least a handful of them look like they have a decent shot of being Canucks in 2-3 years. Hopefully we get a couple more decent prospects in the 2014 draft and keep building on what has been started with Corrado, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Horvat, Cassels and Subban and this team should be in the thick of things come April.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Vader » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:01 pm

herb wrote:
Vader wrote:Horvat may become an excellent player for the Canucks but no matter how well Horvat plays, the trade is a loss because Gillis should have got more.


That logic is absolutely terrible because we have no idea what Horvat will become. If he becomes Steve Yzerman reincarnate, we win that trade hands down. If he becomes Natham Smith reincarnate, obviously that trade was awful.


Herb - the logic is sound

If Schneider was dealt for a sixth round pick we'd roast Gillis at the stake.

If the Canucks chose another Bure with that pick then it would be a good trade? Of course not.

The trade is judged on what you can reasonably expect to get with the 9th overal pick, Which I believe we can reasonably expect to have an excellent second line center.... 5 years from now. In the meantime Jersey gets a 27 year old goalie on a good contract hitting his prime. That's worth more than a "reasonable chance" at a excellent second line centre 5 years from now IMHO.
Vader
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby herb » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:10 pm

Vader wrote:The trade is judged on what you can reasonably expect to get with the 9th overal pick, Which I believe we can reasonably expect to have an excellent second line center.... 5 years from now. In the meantime Jersey gets a 27 year old goalie on a good contract hitting his prime. That's worth more than a "reasonable chance" at a excellent second line centre 5 years from now IMHO.


You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. You have judged the trade, and I will continue to wait and see how these two players work out.

Three points:

First, presumably Schneider was shopped around and New Jersey was the highest bidder (outside of a team like Edmonton, who I don't think any of us had much interest in Schneider going to). The value is what Gillis could actually get for Schneider, and I think it should be pretty clear that the market for goalies is not what we were all thinking it was a year ago.

Second, the 2013 draft was considered to be one of the deepest drafts on record. Horvat has been billed by experts as perhaps the most complete player in that draft. Nobody considered top ten picks in that draft to be second line players at best.

Third, Schneider was only signed for two more seasons, and New Jersey has no guarantee that he'll re-sign there.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Vader » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:25 pm

herb wrote:
Vader wrote:The trade is judged on what you can reasonably expect to get with the 9th overal pick, Which I believe we can reasonably expect to have an excellent second line center.... 5 years from now. In the meantime Jersey gets a 27 year old goalie on a good contract hitting his prime. That's worth more than a "reasonable chance" at a excellent second line centre 5 years from now IMHO.


You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. You have judged the trade, and I will continue to wait and see how these two players work out.

Three points:

First, presumably Schneider was shopped around and New Jersey was the highest bidder (outside of a team like Edmonton, who I don't think any of us had much interest in Schneider going to). The value is what Gillis could actually get for Schneider, and I think it should be pretty clear that the market for goalies is not what we were all thinking it was a year ago.

Second, the 2013 draft was considered to be one of the deepest drafts on record. Horvat has been billed by experts as perhaps the most complete player in that draft. Nobody considered top ten picks in that draft to be second line players at best.

Third, Schneider was only signed for two more seasons, and New Jersey has no guarantee that he'll re-sign there.


You see, you kind of proved my point when you bring up Edmonton. Gillis was scared to send him to Edmonton because Schneider would instantly make that team a threat to the Canucks while Gillis would have nothing to show for the deal.

The market for goalies was better a year ago...Gillis goofed around for a year while Columbus, Tampa, Islanders, Philly and others went other routes. No one was going to offer any value for Luongo, before or after this latest CBA. It's not the type of contract you give a goalie.

Yes - 2013 is probably the deepest draft since 2003 - that`s why I think Horvat will be an excellent long term player for the Canucks (just no time soon). Kesler came out of that 2003 draft. How many years before Kesler became an impact player for the Canucks?

Don't get me wrong, I like Luongo. But it should come as no surprise the Canucks wanted to go with Schneider, and why the general consensus outside of Vancouver is that Gillis didn't get anywhere near fair value for Schneider.
Vader
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby herb » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:39 pm

Vader wrote:You see, you kind of proved my point when you bring up Edmonton. Gillis was scared to send him to Edmonton because Schneider would instantly make that team a threat to the Canucks while Gillis would have nothing to show for the deal.

The market for goalies was better a year ago...Gillis goofed around for a year while Columbus, Tampa, Islanders, Philly and others went other routes. No one was going to offer any value for Luongo, before or after this latest CBA. It's not the type of contract you give a goalie.

Yes - 2013 is probably the deepest draft since 2003 - that`s why I think Horvat will be an excellent long term player for the Canucks (just no time soon). Kesler came out of that 2003 draft. How many years before Kesler became an impact player for the Canucks?

Don't get me wrong, I like Luongo. But it should come as no surprise the Canucks wanted to go with Schneider, and why the general consensus outside of Vancouver is that Gillis didn't get anywhere near fair value for Schneider.


This is a re-hash of an old discussion.

Nearly anything would have made Edmonton better. Why make a divisional rival better?

Saying Gillis' plan was to go with Schneider is no revelation. Gillis' mistake was assuming there was a market for Luongo. At the end of the day, he was not trade-able. You don't think Gillis was knocking on the doors of Tampa and Columbus?

What are some recent comparables for the Schneider trade that show what "fair value" should be? Bernier was traded for a couple of depth players, was that fair value? Halak was traded for two prospects, neither of which were NHL ready at the time. Varlamov garnered a mid round first and a second round pick in a less deep draft. Heck, Luongo in his prime only garnered an injured and washed up Bertuzzi and a couple of depth players (Auld and Allen).

We can argue about fair value until the cows come home, but the reality is that goalies aren't worth what most of us were hoping for a year ago.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Hockey Widow » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:55 pm

I think by the time MG decided he had to trade CS it was on the eve of the draft.

He was told Luongo would not be bought out and a trade keeping some of his salary was not an option. The decision to trade CS was forced on him as time ran out to try and trade Luongo. I think he was backed into a corner and never properly shopped CS. Could he have gotten more? Depends upon your definition of more. He got the ninth overall. So if more is the number of assets, then yes he could have gotten more. If more is the highest draft pick available the only if he had pulled the trigger with Edmonton. A deal he would have made if Edmonton recognized their position in all of this.

Yes MG has to make the best deal for the Canucks but if he is making a conference opponent that much stronger he is right to ask for more.

Just think, if Edmonton had offered their first and Yakupov they would have CS. We would have drafted higher and had Yakupov who has fallen out of favour in Edmonton anyway because he refuses to buy into their system. But that certainly would have been a better deal for us than the NJD deal and I bet MG would have jumped at it. But Edmonton wasn't offering anything more than their first.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3499
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Vader » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:57 pm

herb wrote:
This is a re-hash of an old discussion.

Nearly anything would have made Edmonton better. Why make a divisional rival better?


A fair trade would've made BOTH teams better but Gills botched this situation so bad that his best offer was the 6th overall plus whatever else from a division rival. Let me turn the question around to you: Why would Edmonton want to give a top young player (like say Monohan) on an entry level deal to a division rival like Vancouver? Because Schneider would make them much better now

I'm not disagreeing in principal what you're saying vis-a-vis the goalie market but Gillis should've either flushed Luonog at his first opportunity (I believe he could have made some sort of deal a year ago) or moved Schneider when there were many more teams looking for help. Instead he did neither.

A team like Tampa no doubt feels Schnieder is better than Lindback or Bishop but what was a budget team like TB supposed to have done with those guys if they landed Schneider?

Gillis botched this whole thing, no matter what some here want to believe
Vader
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby herb » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:11 pm

^ You're making a lot of assumptions and drawing conclusions based upon your opinion and events which did not occur. Your thoughts and conclusions are fine, but you don't know all the offers and conversations that happened.

I would argue that the Devils are better because they have an heir to Brodeur's throne. I also believe that the Canucks are better with a starting goaltender and high level prospect than with two starting goaltenders. Both organizations got better in areas they needed to improve. That's not debatable.

The only thing Gillis botched was believing Luongo could be moved. He couldn't, and reluctantly he had to move on to plan b. Maybe in hindsight Gillis should have "flushed" Luongo at the earliest opportunity, but he would have been condemned by some for not getting "fair value" then too.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Hockey Widow » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:14 pm

Vader I agree that MG botched. But I also believe there were circumstances that complicated it. For arguments sake lets just say there had been labour peace and no cap recapture penalty. Luongo would have been moved.

I think the time to have moved Luongo or CS was right after we got bounced by LA. but in truth most of us, not all, some were more enlightened, thought Luongo was worth a lot more than reality has shown. And at that time CS had yet to really demonstrate he was a true number 1. After the SJS series we were now heading into labour uncertainty and there was no longer a market for Luongo. And none of us really know what the Leafs were offering and when they were offering it.

So I guess I agree using hindsight MG blew this one. But at the time there were a lot of other factors in play. I was sad to see CS go but strangely happy we still had Luongo. As to whether we got good return, hopefully next season we begin to find out.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3499
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:27 pm

Vader wrote:Gillis botched this whole thing, no matter what some here want to believe.


Perhaps, but hey we ended up with Luongo + Horvat.

Is that any worse than Schneider + ???

With Lack/Eriksson on the rise...

You make it sound like Schneids is a franchise goaltender or something.

Methinks you may still be high on old koolaid.

*offers some fresh koolaid*

27.5 years old and has yet to prove he can handle a starter's role. :eh:

BTW, I think I read somewhere CS is out again, something about yet another a panic attack?

Who knows, maybe 20 months from now Florida finally takes Lou and we sign Schneids as a UFA. :wink:
____
"I like to think that this team can get its mojo back" - Ryan Miller
User avatar
Strangelove
CC Legend
 
Posts: 6914
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Vader » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:38 pm

Strangelove wrote:
*offers some fresh koolaid*


*Accepts cause we're all Canucks*

Strangelove wrote:
27.5 years old and has yet to prove he can handle a starter's role. :eh:


C'mon, you know why he was stuck in the minors so long...

Schneider's easily the best goalie ever drafted by the Canucks. He was (is) a standout at every level. There was a better market for him than some want to admit

Not shittin on Luongo, Horvat or Schneider or anthing like that

Simply saying Horvat + something else (Andy Greene / Jacob Josefsen??) is better than Horvat

Amirite? :mex:
Vader
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Vader » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:04 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:

Yes MG has to make the best deal for the Canucks but if he is making a conference opponent that much stronger he is right to ask for more.


If Edmonton was dangling the sixth overall for a goalie, and if there is a surplus of goalies (which is what happens in a buyers market), why didn't other teams jump at it?

Simple, because a top young goalie is worth more than a draft pick especially when picks often don't pan out...
Vader
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:37 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 4 guests