So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

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ESQ
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by ESQ » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:51 pm

Topper wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:People thinking we will get a Huberdeau or Coutourier or Rielly need to check themselves.
That is why I'd toss Burrows in the deal. It would also free up one of the two buyouts.
Wait, are you being serious? Buyiung out a back-to-back-to-back-to-back 25 goal scorer? Who has consistently been in the top-20 Even Strength goal scorers for 4 years? Who has been in the top 50 goal scorers in the League for 4 years? And has missed all of 13 games in 6 years?

There is zero chance of Burrows being bought out. Of coursre, if you just said that to get a rise out of someone, I'm happy to oblige :lol:

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by ukcanuck » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:03 pm

ESQ wrote:
Topper wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:People thinking we will get a Huberdeau or Coutourier or Rielly need to check themselves.
That is why I'd toss Burrows in the deal. It would also free up one of the two buyouts.
Wait, are you being serious? Buyiung out a back-to-back-to-back-to-back 25 goal scorer? Who has consistently been in the top-20 Even Strength goal scorers for 4 years? Who has been in the top 50 goal scorers in the League for 4 years? And has missed all of 13 games in 6 years?

There is zero chance of Burrows being bought out. Of coursre, if you just said that to get a rise out of someone, I'm happy to oblige :lol:
I'm thinking he meant that with the expected raise that Burrows is due, Gillis wont have to use a buy out to fit who ever would be coming back in a Luongo trade...

however I'm not sure I'd be happy with giving up Burrows, I don't put much stock in his points totals as they are most likely inflated a la Carter of a few years back, but there hasn't been clutch goal scorer like Burrows since Geoff Courtnall and the guy is all Canuck,,,well for a frenchman anyway
Last edited by ukcanuck on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by BurningBeard » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:06 pm

ESQ wrote: There is zero chance of Burrows being bought out. Of coursre, if you just said that to get a rise out of someone, I'm happy to oblige :lol:
I wouldn't tweak my groin over it.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Diehard1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:04 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:Gillis only needs to hit a single as long as he cashes in a couple ducks. Hitting a home run is a crack pipe dream. You are trading a goalie who has had great regular seasons and is a horse. He is also 33 , signed for ten more seasons and has a pretty spotty record in big games. Hanging onto him for the whole year or beyond is asinine for several reasons. For one he could play lousy and start the descent into being a mediocre goalie and you are stuck with a big salary and nowhere to bury it. For another it could be a mindfuck to the kid the team would like to get behind and move forward with.

If someone can provide the Canucks with a young centre with upside who can immediately play in the top 9, a good young prospect and a 2nd rounder or a 2014 1st rounder he should be all over that trade. The longer the team hangs onto Roberto the worse it may get.

I would take Mathias , Shore/Petrovic and a 2nd or a 2014 1st.The Leaves have little I am interested in unless they part with Jake the Snake. It isn't getting any better than that. People thinking we will get a Huberdeau or Coutourier or Rielly need to check themselves.
This to me is the home run. So ya, if MG can get that then go for it but if not I say hang onto Luongo.
Agreed - what I mean about trading Lu now is you have to get some value for him - not saying it has to be Couturier, Bjugstad or somebody like that - but decent value. I don't think you need to get a top young player and a top prospect, but a guy who can play in the top 9 (even when Kesler is healthy) and a decent prospect works for me. Keep in mind it will also mean the Nucks have about $6 million in cap space without Lu here, depending on how much salary is coming back. That's a valuable asset too when your ownership has proven they are willing to spend it.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by tantalum » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:33 am

I think it's safe to assume that Gillis hasn't seen the "perfect" deal yet. Or a deal that brings the value he feels Luongo is worth. Or he feels that similar guys on offer could be grabbed for far less than a all-star starting goaltender.

It would seem to me then that the offers in Gillis' mind aren't going to get worse. He could move Luongo immediately if it came to that but it's at a value or with pieces coming back that don't help him. I see no real harm in waiting to see if the offers could get better PROVIDED it isn't proving to be a distraction to the team. Who knows, perhaps the Caps goaltending is terrible to start the year and they have a bit of a panic and move Johansson/Alzner along with Neuvirth/Holtby for Luongo plus something.

I just can't shake the feeling that Leaves will always be interested at the same price no longer how long Gillis waits. May as well wait to see what happens. But the Leaves have to be careful because if they wait to long they may not get the chance to add a Luongo to the roster. So I do believe that when the season starts up and a couple of teams have goaltending struggles there will be some pressure on Nonis to get something done before Luongo is lost to someone else. Double the pressure if the Leaves goaltending is struggling.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Diehard1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:51 pm

tantalum wrote:I think it's safe to assume that Gillis hasn't seen the "perfect" deal yet. Or a deal that brings the value he feels Luongo is worth. Or he feels that similar guys on offer could be grabbed for far less than a all-star starting goaltender.

It would seem to me then that the offers in Gillis' mind aren't going to get worse. He could move Luongo immediately if it came to that but it's at a value or with pieces coming back that don't help him. I see no real harm in waiting to see if the offers could get better PROVIDED it isn't proving to be a distraction to the team. Who knows, perhaps the Caps goaltending is terrible to start the year and they have a bit of a panic and move Johansson/Alzner along with Neuvirth/Holtby for Luongo plus something.

I just can't shake the feeling that Leaves will always be interested at the same price no longer how long Gillis waits. May as well wait to see what happens. But the Leaves have to be careful because if they wait to long they may not get the chance to add a Luongo to the roster. So I do believe that when the season starts up and a couple of teams have goaltending struggles there will be some pressure on Nonis to get something done before Luongo is lost to someone else. Double the pressure if the Leaves goaltending is struggling.
I just don't see No-nuts Nonis having the balls to pull off a deal for Luongo, again unless it's an absolute no brainer like the deal he got from Florida (where ownership told the GM they had to move Luongo now, so get the best deal he could). Nonis just won't do anything to rock the boat and it's why he's a very average GM. At least with Gillis, love him or hate him, you know he's got the balls to pull off a shocker trade like the Hodgson one last year.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Meds » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:06 pm

One other thing to consider is that cap space may be even more valuable this summer when one considers the number of potentially worthwhile UFA's who will be looking for damned near any kind of work after being bought out. A guy like Gomez will probably be signed in the $2.5-$3.5M range.....no I don't think for a moment GMMG should consider him, but just an example of a guy who is totally overpaid but will likely be willing to sign somewhere for half of what he was making.

I think a guy like Mike Komisarek would be worth a look at $2.75-$3.25M.....he's not worth the $4.5M he's currently making, but at 31 years old, a 6' 4", 240lb, blueliner with a big right handed shot is definitely worth considering. I would certainly look at him as a potential partner for a young, smaller, and less physical, Connauton. Especially if re-signing Edler proves to be problematic.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by dbr » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:13 pm

Even on one of the worst defensive teams in the league last year, Mike Komisarek averaged less ice time than four other defensemen.

And it's not like he did anything with that ice time, either (hell if you accept what the advanced stats folks are selling he was the worst defenseman on that team).

I think Mike Komisarek gets another NHL contract but if it's a multi million dollar deal it's going to be from some loser franchise like the Islanders or the Oilers.

..

I'm not sure what I think about this year's UFA market. On the one hand a lot of players are probably going to try to test the market, and other interesting players may end up being bought out.

On the other hand, you can bet the big money franchises with even mediocre contracts on the books are going to look at buying them out to give themselves enough money to get in the game.

A lot of big spending teams with a lot of money to play with probably means there won't be any great deals to be had.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:48 pm

Diehard1 wrote: I just don't see No-nuts Nonis having the balls to pull off a deal for Luongo, again unless it's an absolute no brainer like the deal he got from Florida (where ownership told the GM they had to move Luongo now, so get the best deal he could). Nonis just won't do anything to rock the boat and it's why he's a very average GM. At least with Gillis, love him or hate him, you know he's got the balls to pull off a shocker trade like the Hodgson one last year.

Actually I don't think that is what happened. Mike Keenan went rogue on that one. He had taken Luongo to arbitration the year before and had been refusing to give Luongo his big time contract. Keenan didn't think he had shown enough to be paid like a top 10 goalie in the league. Luongo had one more year before UFA. Ownership wanted Luongo signed. Luongo thought he had a deal, had begun construction of his home. Keenan decided that he wanted to impress upon everyone that he ran the organization and he also had a boner for Bert.

It was the opposite of what you sate. Keenan traded Luongo and even rushed making the announcement. Nonis wanted to wait until the draft floor to announce but Keenan wanted it rushed through and announced. He eventually lost his job because of stuff like that.

Martin was the coach at the time and his days in Ottawa were hampered by lack of consistent goaltending. He was in dream land having Luongo on his team and the thought of what it would be like to have a world class net minder back stop the club. He talked about this a few years later. He was in the camp to get Luongo signed long term when he heard about the trade.

So the coach wanted him, ownership wanted him, the fans wanted him, it was the GM that felt it was an unproven player playing hard ball and he needed to be shown how the NHL works. Listen to Keenan when he talks about it. He talks about how Luongo's head was a little bigger than his accomplishments.

At the time we gave up a washed up power forward, at the time a d'man who was thought to be top 4 and a back up goalie who had decent numbers for the Canucks.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by tantalum » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:53 pm

Either way I sort of agree with Diehard...Luongo dropped into Nonis' lap (good on him for willingly receiving the asset), but Nonis never showed the willingness or ability to make the move which could either be a great success or a massive failure. He'll only make the Luongo move if he underpays or is forced to do so.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:23 pm

tantalum wrote:Either way I sort of agree with Diehard...Luongo dropped into Nonis' lap (good on him for willingly receiving the asset), but Nonis never showed the willingness or ability to make the move which could either be a great success or a massive failure. He'll only make the Luongo move if he underpays or is forced to do so.

Agreed Tant. Luongo landed on his lap no question. And I also remember his reluctance to make major moves along the lines of a Holmgren.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by herb » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:55 pm

I gave Nonis credit for landing Luongo. Keenan could have unloaded him elsewhere, and for some reason he chose to trade with Vancouver.

One thing Nonis and Burke have in common is that they're very good at justifying why they didn't do something. How many times did we endure these two saying "I will not overpay for a goaltender/second line forward...blah blah blah"?

If Gillis' goal is to acquire some help for the here and now, then obviously Luongo needs to be traded asap.

If Gillis' goal is to acquire futures in the form of draft picks and/or prospects, then he is probably better served by waiting out the season and seeing if there are more suitors in the off season. It's not like a guy like Bjugstad, for example, would be much help this season, so what's the rush? I think it's highly unlikely that Florida and Toronto will remove themselves from the Luongo sweepstakes if this thing drags on into the off season, so Gillis does have some manoeuvrability.

The thing that gets me, is that if I'm Dave Nonis I am itching to get into the playoffs this season for the sake of some job security. If there was ever a time he could be afforded some leeway and 'benefit of the doubt' in terms of potentially overpaying, you would think it would be in the department of solidifying the goaltending position, right?

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Jovocop » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:04 pm

herb wrote:I gave Nonis credit for landing Luongo. Keenan could have unloaded him elsewhere, and for some reason he chose to trade with Vancouver.
HW got it right. Keenan loves "size, toughness and soft hands". He traded for Bertuzzi twice. He even wanted him when he was a coach with the Flames.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Diehard1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:06 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:
Diehard1 wrote: I just don't see No-nuts Nonis having the balls to pull off a deal for Luongo, again unless it's an absolute no brainer like the deal he got from Florida (where ownership told the GM they had to move Luongo now, so get the best deal he could). Nonis just won't do anything to rock the boat and it's why he's a very average GM. At least with Gillis, love him or hate him, you know he's got the balls to pull off a shocker trade like the Hodgson one last year.

Actually I don't think that is what happened. Mike Keenan went rogue on that one. He had taken Luongo to arbitration the year before and had been refusing to give Luongo his big time contract. Keenan didn't think he had shown enough to be paid like a top 10 goalie in the league. Luongo had one more year before UFA. Ownership wanted Luongo signed. Luongo thought he had a deal, had begun construction of his home. Keenan decided that he wanted to impress upon everyone that he ran the organization and he also had a boner for Bert.

It was the opposite of what you sate. Keenan traded Luongo and even rushed making the announcement. Nonis wanted to wait until the draft floor to announce but Keenan wanted it rushed through and announced. He eventually lost his job because of stuff like that.

Martin was the coach at the time and his days in Ottawa were hampered by lack of consistent goaltending. He was in dream land having Luongo on his team and the thought of what it would be like to have a world class net minder back stop the club. He talked about this a few years later. He was in the camp to get Luongo signed long term when he heard about the trade.

So the coach wanted him, ownership wanted him, the fans wanted him, it was the GM that felt it was an unproven player playing hard ball and he needed to be shown how the NHL works. Listen to Keenan when he talks about it. He talks about how Luongo's head was a little bigger than his accomplishments.

At the time we gave up a washed up power forward, at the time a d'man who was thought to be top 4 and a back up goalie who had decent numbers for the Canucks.
I remember Keenan talking about this at the trading deadline last year - his story was that he actually had a verbal deal in place with Lu, went to ownership who said no, we want to trade him. Keenan said his hands were tied and he had to get rid of Lu as a result. I'm not sure it's exactly true as he's probably trying to save a little bit of face now, but Keenan specifically said he wanted to keep Lu and ownership nixed it.

The nice thing about Bert at the time is that he was young enough to get back to where he was earlier in his career. It never happened but he had a big name and therefore more value than he should have. Allen and Auld had ok value too.

In this case Lu's value is hampered by his contract. It's not a death blow by any means and he has lots of years left of solid hockey, but he would have a lot more value with a 4 or 5 year deal in place. Yes he would then be paid more annually but the extreme nature of his deal hurts his value somewhat. Will be interesting to see what the return is, I'm still predicting a trade happens in the near future, likely in the next 2 to 3 weeks.

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Post by Diehard1 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:16 pm

herb wrote:I gave Nonis credit for landing Luongo. Keenan could have unloaded him elsewhere, and for some reason he chose to trade with Vancouver.

One thing Nonis and Burke have in common is that they're very good at justifying why they didn't do something. How many times did we endure these two saying "I will not overpay for a goaltender/second line forward...blah blah blah"?

If Gillis' goal is to acquire some help for the here and now, then obviously Luongo needs to be traded asap.

If Gillis' goal is to acquire futures in the form of draft picks and/or prospects, then he is probably better served by waiting out the season and seeing if there are more suitors in the off season. It's not like a guy like Bjugstad, for example, would be much help this season, so what's the rush? I think it's highly unlikely that Florida and Toronto will remove themselves from the Luongo sweepstakes if this thing drags on into the off season, so Gillis does have some manoeuvrability.

The thing that gets me, is that if I'm Dave Nonis I am itching to get into the playoffs this season for the sake of some job security. If there was ever a time he could be afforded some leeway and 'benefit of the doubt' in terms of potentially overpaying, you would think it would be in the department of solidifying the goaltending position, right?
That's actually a good point and something I hadn't thought of - depends on what Gillis wants as a return. For me, it's all about the present with this team. Take a page from Alex Anthopoulos' book and make a big trade to give your team the best shot at it now and in the next couple of years.

If Gillis isn't of the same mindset, however, then perhaps waiting for futures (picks and prospects) makes sense. It's not what I would do but I'm not sure what he is thinking.

Either way you've got a very good asset tying up dollars and able to bring something in return. I look to trade him quickly if I'm Gillis but he may have a different mindset.

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