What is Higgins Worth?

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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby RoyalDude » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:12 am

Fred wrote:Rockalt I have to say Lapierre and Higgins are a coaches dream come true, consistent. Game after game they play the same consistent quality. The coaches knows what to expect every shift


consistent quality? Where was Higgins against the Kings in the playoffs? Nowhere to be found, maybe he was to busy admiring the hard work of Hank and our goalies trying to keep us in the hunt against the Kings. The bottom line is, Higgins is a journeyman, this city just love these guys, and for that, they get overrated, ie like Klatt, Sillinger, Ryan Johnson, Malhotra. Ya know, that lunch bucket, blue collar type hustle guy, more work than finish. Give me more of the Sedin types, the calm cool and collected thinkers who use their brains to get the job done, instead of just aimlessly skating in circles, sweating buckets.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Fred » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:29 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Fred wrote:Rockalt I have to say Lapierre and Higgins are a coaches dream come true, consistent. Game after game they play the same consistent quality. The coaches knows what to expect every shift


consistent quality? Where was Higgins against the Kings in the playoffs? Nowhere to be found, maybe he was to busy admiring the hard work of Hank and our goalies trying to keep us in the hunt against the Kings. The bottom line is, Higgins is a journeyman, this city just love these guys, and for that, they get overrated, ie like Klatt, Sillinger, Ryan Johnson, Malhotra. Ya know, that lunch bucket, blue collar type hustle guy, more work than finish. Give me more of the Sedin types, the calm cool and collected thinkers who use their brains to get the job done, instead of just aimlessly skating in circles, sweating buckets.



Not sure if you noticed this but there ain't to many Sedin clones around..... hens back teeth, not many of them. You can't fill your roster with Sedin's at $6.5 mill each. I never see Higgins of Lapierre take a night off
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby RoyalDude » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:35 am

Fred wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:
Fred wrote:Rockalt I have to say Lapierre and Higgins are a coaches dream come true, consistent. Game after game they play the same consistent quality. The coaches knows what to expect every shift


consistent quality? Where was Higgins against the Kings in the playoffs? Nowhere to be found, maybe he was to busy admiring the hard work of Hank and our goalies trying to keep us in the hunt against the Kings. The bottom line is, Higgins is a journeyman, this city just love these guys, and for that, they get overrated, ie like Klatt, Sillinger, Ryan Johnson, Malhotra. Ya know, that lunch bucket, blue collar type hustle guy, more work than finish. Give me more of the Sedin types, the calm cool and collected thinkers who use their brains to get the job done, instead of just aimlessly skating in circles, sweating buckets.



Not sure if you noticed this but there ain't to many Sedin clones around..... hens back teeth, not many of them. You can't fill your roster with Sedin's at $6.5 mill each. I never see Higgins of Lapierre take a night off


Higgins sucked against the Kings. Bottom line.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Topper » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:38 am

RoyalDude wrote:The bottom line is, Higgins is a journeyman, this city just love these guys, and for that, they get overrated, ie like Klatt, Sillinger, Ryan Johnson, Malhotra. Ya know, that lunch bucket, blue collar type hustle guy, more work than finish.

Not to mention a couple in the rafters.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Fred » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:51 am

Topper wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:The bottom line is, Higgins is a journeyman, this city just love these guys, and for that, they get overrated, ie like Klatt, Sillinger, Ryan Johnson, Malhotra. Ya know, that lunch bucket, blue collar type hustle guy, more work than finish.

Not to mention a couple in the rafters.



The fact that escapes many is there is a Salary Cap it's not that fans love the guys, although most 'Nucks fans like players that work hard. It's case of filling out your roster where you get the best bang for your buck. Is Higgins going to score 30 goals likely not, will he do the job AV wants of him on the third line and fill in on the second when need be ....absolutley
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby dbr » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:58 am

Fred (and others sensitive to the reasonable - ie. not coming from RoyalDude - criticism of Higgins and Lapierre), I totally agree. The salary cap is why you play hardball with guys like Higgins and Lapierre, they are great for your team as long as they are outperforming their salary. But the minute you re-up Higgins at $3.5m that becomes pretty much impossible; at that point he's not a great role player, he is a middling depth scorer (which might be splitting hairs but you see my point).

Fred wrote:Rockalt I have to say Lapierre and Higgins are a coaches dream come true, consistent. Game after game they play the same consistent quality. The coaches knows what to expect every shift


Really? I'd say that for Higgins, but Lapierre's play seems to range between an effective third liner and a 'not bad' fourth liner, averaging out to the point where I'd say he's a very good fourth liner. He is consistent in that the type of game he plays doesn't change but his overall impact on the ice does vary, he has played his way off of two teams so far (in addition to playing key roles on a couple of reasonably successful playoff teams).

Anyway like rockalt said Higgins and Lapierre (and I'll add Hansen) are the guys you'd want to build a bottom six group around out of the players we have now.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby coco_canuck » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:22 am

RoyalDude wrote:Higgins sucked against the Kings. Bottom line.


Great argument Dude....not really.

If the standard is one poor playoff round and you're out, then no NHLer will ever be good enough for you.

Fact is, in a long playoff run, players have good series and bad series, no one, not even Sidney Crosby, is lights out every round...if you don't believe me, do something you've never done, and that is research and homework to understand what the fuck is actually going on.

Also, funny that you absolve Raymond and then go gunning for Higgins, who actually is a better player and cheaper.

That my friend, is what I've come to call DudeLogic, and I mean that in the most sarcastic way possible.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Madcombinepilot » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:23 pm

damn dude. you ever play dodgeball??

are you a political hack?

'Casue you sure cant answer a question straight.

Instead of bitching and belittling others answers, why dont you actually answer the question?

Royaldude... whats Higgins worth?
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Meds » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:40 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote:damn dude. you ever play dodgeball??

are you a political hack?

'Casue you sure cant answer a question straight.

Instead of bitching and belittling others answers, why dont you actually answer the question?

Royaldude... whats Higgins worth?


Good luck with that Mcp. :lol:
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Meds » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:03 pm

coco_canuck wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Higgins sucked against the Kings. Bottom line.


Great argument Dude....not really.

If the standard is one poor playoff round and you're out, then no NHLer will ever be good enough for you.

Fact is, in a long playoff run, players have good series and bad series, no one, not even Sidney Crosby, is lights out every round...if you don't believe me, do something you've never done, and that is research and homework to understand what the fuck is actually going on.

Also, funny that you absolve Raymond and then go gunning for Higgins, who actually is a better player and cheaper.

That my friend, is what I've come to call DudeLogic, and I mean that in the most sarcastic way possible.


Crosby actually is pretty lights out every round.....but that's besides the point. Last year he came back for 6 playoff games and put up 8 points. It still wasn't good enough to get the favored Penguins past their rivals from Philadelphia. Both goalies SUCKED hard, the Flyers' players just put it together and lit the lamp more often. Defensively the series was a disaster. So really it doesn't matter in some cases. I think that both Higgins and Lap played their roles well against LA in the opening round last year. Our defense was decent, except for #23 who was absolute shit and gave the Kings some true gimme's. Our top 2 lines were garbage, and Jonathan Quick was good.....rarely tested beyond some pretty straight up shit that he saw all the way until game 5, but all the same. It certainly wasn't our 3rd and 4th liners that lost us that series. My point is that in team sports it takes the entire unit to pull off wins, ironically though it can take only a couple of players to completely derail the efforts of that entire team.

Great point about absolving Raymond......
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:10 pm

dbr wrote:The salary cap is why you play hardball with guys like Higgins and Lapierre, they are great for your team as long as they are outperforming their salary. But the minute you re-up Higgins at $3.5m that becomes pretty much impossible; at that point he's not a great role player, he is a middling depth scorer (which might be splitting hairs but you see my point).


Completely agree.

It depends on what the salary cap goes to. If it stays high, I would say about 2.5M right now. If he replicates last season (ie 50 point pace), it may go up. I don't know if I'd pay him $3M because of what dbr points out above. If he hits UFA after a 50 point season someone will throw $3.5M at him and at that point I hope Gillis walks.

He's been a consistent 3rd line regular who can move up the lineup on a short-term basis.

He's extremely valuable if the price is right, but he is certainly replaceable if/when he looks to cash in.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby coco_canuck » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:28 pm

Meds wrote:Crosby actually is pretty lights out every round.....but that's besides the point.


He's usually great, but he's had a couple poor rounds, by his standards.

In 09-10 when the Pens were bounced in the second round, Crosby had one goal and five points in seven games against the Habs.

This doesn't get talked about as much, but Crosby struggled for much of the Pens 09 Cup Final win against the Red Wings, putting up one goal and three points in seven games.

The point isn't to critique Crosby, it's simply to say, it's a joke to say Higgins is an unworthy player based on a poor performance in a 5 game playoff series.

Meds wrote:It certainly wasn't our 3rd and 4th liners that lost us that series.


Same story as the cup final, having more depth on the 4th line would be nice and all, but that was never the real issue. But they're the most interchangeable parts of the forward group, so it seems some are quick to suggest changes on a whim.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby rockalt » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:56 pm

dbr wrote:The salary cap is why you play hardball with guys like Higgins and Lapierre, they are great for your team as long as they are outperforming their salary. But the minute you re-up Higgins at $3.5m that becomes pretty much impossible; at that point he's not a great role player, he is a middling depth scorer (which might be splitting hairs but you see my point).


I see what you mean dbr. I didn't comment on his cap hit in my last post (mostly because he's currently great value) but upping him to $3.5m is problematic. I'm not so sure I would be on board with such an increase, barring a 30 goal outburst. Nevertheless, if he puts up 50+ points next year he'd surely get that on the open market (providing there are no radical changes to the CBA when a new one is finally agreed upon).

dbr wrote:Anyway like rockalt said Higgins and Lapierre (and I'll add Hansen) are the guys you'd want to build a bottom six group around out of the players we have now.


I like Hansen as well. My only complaint is his size and that he's slightly less consistent than Higgins. Otherwise I'm quite happy with retaining all 3 of those players in our bottom 6. In fact, I'm not sure many changes to the bottom 6 are needed. The real difference last year was the disappearance of the second line.
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Tciso » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:59 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Higgins is the best thing since slice bread, Rats. I don't how it is humanly possible to numbers to that.


Wow, so now we pay players in loaves of sliced bread?? RD, good thing you are not the GM. COnverting between $cdn and $US has been difficult enough, but converting between sliced bread and $US must be a challenge
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Re: What is Higgins Worth?

Postby Meds » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:14 pm

coco_canuck wrote:[The point isn't to critique Crosby, it's simply to say, it's a joke to say Higgins is an unworthy player based on a poor performance in a 5 game playoff series.

...

Same story as the cup final, having more depth on the 4th line would be nice and all, but that was never the real issue. But they're the most interchangeable parts of the forward group, so it seems some are quick to suggest changes on a whim.



Agree on both points, and I'm even guilty of suggesting changes after a bad game or two, but I have to say that despite the obvious disappointment that was collectively felt by Canucks fans everywhere last April, I don't think it's worth throwing the whole team under the bus. When you look at the next 3 rounds for LA.....they STEAM-ROLLED the living shit out of the league on the way to the Cup. Darryl Sutter is one of the best coaches in the NHL when it comes to getting a team to play clutch and grab, defense first, playoff hockey. This should be qualified by pointing out that if the officials actually called the games in April, May, and June, the same way they did October through January, well then Sutter loses his appeal. The only team that might have stood up to the Kings last year was the 2011 SCF Bruins, but even they would have been in tough as the Kings have more talent and speed.

So the 2012 playoffs alone are not reason enough for suggesting changes. They are just a sore spot that is easily provoked.

Our top line needs to be faster. But that isn't going to happen when it is comprised of the Sedins. The only change that they can make at this point in their careers that will improve the team and success of the line is to see both of them become a little more selfish.....we've all said this for years.

Our second line needs a playmaker. (Higgins fits here if that change is made)

Our third line needs to be a bit more consistent when it comes to providing scoring support. (Higgins fits here too)

Our fourth line needs to be upgraded so far as speed and physical play goes.

Our defense needs to be nastier.

Goaltending is just fine.
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