The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Per » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:04 pm

I don't understand why you need owners to begin with. Screw them. Swedish teams don't have owners, they're associations. They're made up of the players, fans, or anyone who cares enough to become a member. The members elect a board of directors that then hire the staff and players. All profits go back to the team and are invested in the arena, in new players, equipment, etc.

So, having never understood why a team would/should have an owner to begin with, I logically side with the players.
You can have a hockey team without owners, but you sure as hell can't have one without players.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby rats19 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:00 pm

Per wrote:I don't understand why you need owners to begin with. Screw them. Swedish teams don't have owners, they're associations. They're made up of the players, fans, or anyone who cares enough to become a member. The members elect a board of directors that then hire the staff and players. All profits go back to the team and are invested in the arena, in new players, equipment, etc.

So, having never understood why a team would/should have an owner to begin with, I logically side with the players.
You can have a hockey team without owners, but you sure as hell can't have one without players.


leans left...we lean right...good or bad its capatalism....
You are who you hang with.....
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Potatoe1 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:23 pm

rats19 wrote:
leans left...we lean right...good or bad its capatalism....


And as usual the correct position is somewhere in the middle.

The owners want their business to be profitable and valuable, the players want to make as much as possible in their short career, and everyone wants a good deal for themselves.

If you find yourself leaning heavily towards either side it's probably because of your own bias, so take a chill pill and realize that the whole dispute is simply a bunch of very rich people arguing over money and really has nothing at all to do with your own left wing / right wing, personal experience.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:33 pm

Meds wrote:
Do the players pay for the arenas?

in a way they do, the owners invest their money and see a return on that investment at rate greater than what they can get at a bank, this money is generated by the public paying to see the players play amongst other things (tractor pulls concerts etc)
Do the players pay the cost of running the league?

all the operating costs are covered by revenue generated by the sales or tickets, marketing etc etc.
Do the players pay for their equipment or the general operations of the team they play for?

once again all operating costs are covered by revenue generated by the paying public who pay to see the players play
Is it coming out of the players pay cheque every time he gets frustrated and breaks a $275+ hockey stick?

once again all operating costs are covered by revenue generated by the sale of the tickets, merchandise, parking beer etc etc
Who fronts the money for the jerseys and the advertising?

if the owners CEO's and General Managers can't find one of Reebok, Nike, CCM etc to foot the bill for all of the advertising and merchandising they need to hire Royal Dude and he'll get Pacific Blue on board yesterday
Do the players pay for the cost of the teams travel?

see above regarding operating costs
And the players feel they are entitled to half the profits?

yes they do and yes they are entitled
They don't own the teams and they have, for the most part, no loyalty to any particular team beyond the size of the pay cheque they can get. They are mercenaries for hire.

why the fuck should any player have any loyalty to any team,? Ask Pavel Bure about how loyal the Canucks were to him, Ask Luongo how loyal are the fans? the ugly truth is that there is no loyalty whatsoever, from the owners, players ad fans alike. its all about what have you done for me lately and dont be confused about this one, shoeless joe...

Fuck the players. Fuck the owners too. Fuck the NHL and pro sports in general that make millionaires out of babies.

hey fuck us all too because its we the people that make it all possible.


all kidding aside, the owners provide one valuable service to the whole machine called professional sports, they underwrite the risk, meaning if all else fails they hold the bill, however for that they are entitled to make as much money as they can so long as they don't infringe on ANYONE else's right to access the market as well. the bottom line is that salary caps, contract length limits and free agency limits as well as roll backs on signed and sealed contracts are all antitrust in nature and completely two faced by the very people who claim to be free market capitalists...
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby okcanuck » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:09 pm

All the bs in this thread doesn't mean squat. The reality is that until the fans say enough is enough, the players and the owners will forever scrape as much money as possible away from us. Fuck em all. I say we boycott them until they come back to reality

I'm really getting sick and tired of listening to these millionaires,both players and owners and especially that piece of crap Bettman. I drive through our neighborhood and I see kids playing street hockey just for the love of the game, knowing full well that 99% of them couldn't afford tickets to an NHL game, to see their heroes, if their life depended on it.

No its time we put an end to this nonsense. Don't get me wrong.I love hockey and I love the Canucks, but why do we put up with their bullshit. Lets flood Bettmans and Feurs e-mail accounts with our own threats to their very existence.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Meds » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:25 am

okcanuck wrote:All the bs in this thread doesn't mean squat. The reality is that until the fans say enough is enough, the players and the owners will forever scrape as much money as possible away from us. Fuck em all. I say we boycott them until they come back to reality

I'm really getting sick and tired of listening to these millionaires,both players and owners and especially that piece of crap Bettman. I drive through our neighborhood and I see kids playing street hockey just for the love of the game, knowing full well that 99% of them couldn't afford tickets to an NHL game, to see their heroes, if their life depended on it.

No its time we put an end to this nonsense. Don't get me wrong.I love hockey and I love the Canucks, but why do we put up with their bullshit. Lets flood Bettmans and Feurs e-mail accounts with our own threats to their very existence.


I kinda lean this way as well.

I will never agree that a guy being paid 7 figures to the play a game has the RIGHT to MORE money. If the market goes totally south and suddenly the cap has to fall, and teams are over limit and have to bury players in the minors or what have you, then it is still the owner left holding the bag at the end of the day while the player pulls a Mark Messier and sues the franchise to get his money.

As UK said, it is the owner who underwrites the risk. And I don't for a second think that the fans pay as much to see the players as they do to see their team. I think some of the players are an attraction, for sure, but if they weren't there then the fans would still pay to see the team play.....at least in Canada I suppose. :P
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ClamRussel » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:18 am

Meds wrote:Do the players pay for the arenas?


Do the owners?
Sometimes. Often its the tax payers. Just ask a coyote or penguin.

rats19 wrote:good or bad its capatalism....


When there's profits it is, when there's losses or large costs to be paid its often socialism.
Crony capitalism is more accurate.

The original arena in Edmonton was built w/ public funds....now there's pressure (and threats to move) if the tax payer doesn't pay for a new one.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Fred » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:32 am

Just a thought and from a fans perspective would a standardize ticket structure help. Maybe force teams such as the number of big expensive teams to that haul in a loy moe at the gate than the lower teams and then spend on high contracts ?? and there fore set a level that others can't afford. Pie in the sky I know :(
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:43 am

Meds wrote:
If the market goes totally south and suddenly the cap has to fall, and teams are over limit and have to bury players in the minors or what have you, then it is still the owner left holding the bag at the end of the day while the player pulls a Mark Messier and sues the franchise to get his money.


Not sure what Mark Messier has to do with any of this. He sued the Canucks and rightfully collected the 6 million that he had coming to him. I have no idea why John McCaw would sign off on a clause that would pay Messier a percentage of franchise appreciating during his stint here , but he did and a deals a deal.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:47 am

The NFL model is the one that works ....end of. full stop. I haven't heard one fucking word from anyone in the NHL, not that they are speaking to me of course, but seriously, lets see Bettman actually treat the paying public with just the tiniest bit of respect and explain EXACTLY why revenue sharing won't work for the NHL and then maybe , just maybe, I wont think that Bettman is just a cocksucker for the original six teams who are all profitable, drive up salaries during free agency and took all the expansion fees when the times were good.
I already know the reason why, Rich mofos like those listed below wont share one plug nickel, never have, never will...thats not how you get rich.
Jacobs Jacobs
Rocky Wirtz,
Mike Illitch
(who paid 8 million for the franchise in 1982 btw Meds you could buy half a row of east vancouver homes for that now)
MSG Inc
which is a Public Corp traded as NASDAQ: MSG
Industry Professional sports and Entertainment
Founded 2010
Founder(s) James L. Dolan
Headquarters New York, New York, U.S.
Key people James Dolan
(Executive chairman)
Hank Ratner
(President and CEO)
Products Madison Square Garden
Radio City Music Hall
Beacon Theatre
Chicago Theatre
The Forum
New York Knicks
New York Rangers
New York Liberty
Connecticut Whale
Revenue $ 1.062 billion - 2009
Operating income $ 120.6 million - 2009
Total assets $ 9.383 billion - 2008
Total equity $ -5.362 billion - 2008

The miserable maple leafs sports and entertainment
Private corp
Industry Sports, property management
Founded 1931 (as Maple Leaf Gardens Ltd.)
1998 (present name)
Headquarters Air Canada Centre, Toronto, Ontario
Key people Larry Tanenbaum, Chairman
Richard Peddie, President and CEO
Products Professional sports teams, sports venues, sports channels, commercial real estate
Owner(s) Rogers Communications – 37.5%
Bell Canada – 28%
Kilmer Sports – 25%
BCE Master Trust Fund – 9.5%
Subsidiaries Toronto Maple Leafs, Toronto Raptors, Toronto Marlies, Toronto FC
References: Enterprise value — $2.25 billion USD (2011)
And The Venerable Molson Family,
Who admittedly is an important family in the history of Canada, but Meds, do you really believe that any of the Molson family made something of themselves without every competitive advantage to being successful in life, Wouldnt you say the Molson's were born with silver spoons??
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ukcanuck » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:54 am

balance all that with a guy who spends a life time of 5 am practices with families who sacrifice money, holidays and hours on the road driving to games all in the effort to make it in the big time, only to be told where to play, how to play, how much you are paid and if you dont like it, fuck you go home? There is no one on this site who would accept such working conditions, and its all OK because they get million dollar paycheques? bullshit
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby ESQ » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:40 am

Meds wrote:
Do the players pay for the arenas? Do the players pay the cost of running the league? Do the players pay for their equipment or the general operations of the team they play for? Is it coming out of the players pay cheque every time he gets frustrated and breaks a $275+ hockey stick? Who fronts the money for the jerseys and the advertising? Do the players pay for the cost of the teams travel?


No, you're right, the players don't pay for this stuff, the fans do :)

Its a business. Meaning owners make profit. If it wasn't profitable, the owners wouldn't buy teams. If the players are taking too much of the pie, the owners won't keep selling franchises at enormous profits.

I don't see that the players owe anything to the owners for being the go-between from the fan's wallet to the players' paycheques.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby wienerdog » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:50 am

ukcanuck wrote:balance all that with a guy who spends a life time of 5 am practices with families who sacrifice money, holidays and hours on the road driving to games all in the effort to make it in the big time, only to be told where to play, how to play, how much you are paid and if you dont like it, fuck you go home? There is no one on this site who would accept such working conditions, and its all OK because they get million dollar paycheques? bullshit


FFS™, I hope you're drunk :drink:

Give your Limey head a shake - EVERYONE on this site would accept those working conditions, amigo.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Potatoe1 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:11 pm

ukcanuck wrote:balance all that with a guy who spends a life time of 5 am practices with families who sacrifice money, holidays and hours on the road driving to games all in the effort to make it in the big time, only to be told where to play, how to play, how much you are paid and if you dont like it, fuck you go home? There is no one on this site who would accept such working conditions, and its all OK because they get million dollar paycheques? bullshit


:lol:

Are you kidding? I did all that shit for fun.

Being a professional hockey player is easily one of the best occupations on the entire planet. I suspect most Canadians would rather be a good NHL player then just about anything else.

It is hilarious that anyone would try to garner sympathy for them.
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Re: The Final Nail in the Hockey Experience Coffin

Postby Per » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:28 pm

ESQ wrote:I don't see that the players owe anything to the owners for being the go-between from the fan's wallet to the players' paycheques.


Exactly. Basically, the owners play the part of the pimp.
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