There will be a strike

[ukcanuck]

Have to agree with UK on that one. The NHL is a 3.3 billion dollar industry. To put that in context the NBA is only 4.3 bill and MLB is 7.7. That means the NHL is roughly 2/3rds the size of the NBA and half the size of MLB.

Say what you want about basketball but if you are half the size of MLB you are a serious, serious entity

Problem is that UK beaked off about the NHLPA and the league sitting out two years and coming back strong. The NHL built off the last lockout and for the most part the game improved. The economy was also a fuck of a lot stronger in 05 then the mess we all see today. Most of us are living it.... As a person who works in the mfg world my income has taken a 20 K hit this year alone and talking to most of my friends, firemen, cops, tradesmen etc they are all taking a haircut of 10 - 20 % and they all have families to support. They could give two fucks about the NHL at this point. Sure i'm talking about a cross section of ten to fifteen people...... but these are all people who LOVE the game and have played it most or all of their lives. Multiply that by the other three or four people in their house.

People are ambivelant about it this time. They got boned once before and if they deep six another entire season or two like he says the 3.3 billion dollar industry will be worth a fraction of that. Add in the fact that the NHL is by far the most gate driven sport of the "big 4 " and I use that term loosely, and you have a recipe for the house of cards to collapse.

A few years ago the Yankees personal TV deal ( I want to say YES TV) used to be worth 200 mill a season. With that alone they could hit their payroll let alone what their ticket reveue and souvenirs and concessions would bring in.

I got a question and a response Blob,
The response is that the fear of what you describe happening is the hammer that the players will have the longer this goes on as I pointed out before.

However my question is how much does it cost to go to a Yankees game? is it 300 bucks like a Canucks game? And if its a shit load more like I imagine it is, are you happy for Steinbrenner or who ever to be rolling in all that dough?

[Topper]

Problem is that UK beaked off about the NHLPA and the league sitting out two years and coming back strong. The NHL built off the last lockout and for the most part the game improved. The economy was also a fuck of a lot stronger in 05 then the mess we all see today. Most of us are living it.... As a person who works in the mfg world my income has taken a 20 K hit this year alone and talking to most of my friends, firemen, cops, tradesmen etc they are all taking a haircut of 10 - 20 % and they all have families to support. They could give two fucks about the NHL at this point. Sure i'm talking about a cross section of ten to fifteen people...... but these are all people who LOVE the game and have played it most or all of their lives. Multiply that by the other three or four people in their house.

People are ambivelant about it this time. They got boned once before and if they deep six another entire season or two like he says the 3.3 billion dollar industry will be worth a fraction of that. Add in the fact that the NHL is by far the most gate driven sport of the "big 4 " and I use that term loosely, and you have a recipe for the house of cards to collapse.

A massive hit in our industry, I'm probably down 50% on revenue from three years ago. Only looking worse with next years election looming.

For the PA to link to a projected 7% growth is complete nonsense.

Cancel the 1st 1/4 of the season, let the Jaimison deal collapse and fold the Coyotes.

How much room on that bandwagon Donny?

[Blob Mckenzie]

I got a question and a response Blob,
The response is that the fear of what you describe happening is the hammer that the players will have the longer this goes on as I pointed out before.

However my question is how much does it cost to go to a Yankees game? is it 300 bucks like a Canucks game? And if its a shit load more like I imagine it is, are you happy for Steinbrenner or who ever to be rolling in all that dough?

Sorry UK but other than a handful of markets it will be a hammer made of paper mache if the league is locked out for a year , let alone two. Kiss goodbye to 5 - 10 teams. And if there is a hammer at that point it will be swung by the few owners that still want to prop up pro hockey.

The average price of a Yankees ticket is $70..... so it's less than a Canucks game to be sure. You are comparing a shriveled grape to a big rosy apple. It's irrelevant really and why you would pick a popular team in a niche sport and compare it to the most popular team in a very popular sport is beyond me. Why the fuck do i care if the Steinbrenners are getting rich? They have a brand far bigger than the Aquillinis could ever dream of.

I've said it before i'll say it again. I could care less who is right and who is wrong. I am a fan of the game . Both sides can share the blame here and i laugh at people who get so bent out of shape and vehemently blame only one side, like they actually have a dog in this fight. The owners and the players will be the real losers if they shitcan another year. Eventually most of the fans will find other things to do.

[Blob Mckenzie]

Problem is that UK beaked off about the NHLPA and the league sitting out two years and coming back strong. The NHL built off the last lockout and for the most part the game improved. The economy was also a fuck of a lot stronger in 05 then the mess we all see today. Most of us are living it.... As a person who works in the mfg world my income has taken a 20 K hit this year alone and talking to most of my friends, firemen, cops, tradesmen etc they are all taking a haircut of 10 - 20 % and they all have families to support. They could give two fucks about the NHL at this point. Sure i'm talking about a cross section of ten to fifteen people...... but these are all people who LOVE the game and have played it most or all of their lives. Multiply that by the other three or four people in their house.

People are ambivelant about it this time. They got boned once before and if they deep six another entire season or two like he says the 3.3 billion dollar industry will be worth a fraction of that. Add in the fact that the NHL is by far the most gate driven sport of the "big 4 " and I use that term loosely, and you have a recipe for the house of cards to collapse.

A massive hit in our industry, I'm probably down 50% on revenue from three years ago. Only looking worse with next years election looming.

For the PA to link to a projected 7% growth is complete nonsense.

Cancel the 1st 1/4 of the season, let the Jaimison deal collapse and fold the Coyotes.

How much room on that bandwagon Donny?

That's what some folks can't wrap their melons around. Teams will fold this time around if another season or two is lost. The global economy is in the toilet for the most part and people don't have an extra $500 to take a family of four to a Canucks game.

[Boston Canucker]

Hold it, you mean the PA didn't accept the NHL's amazing offer!? It's not over? The PA came back with their own offer that the NHL hated, and it's all doom!? Absolutely shocking! Oh my, who could have ever seen that coming...it's almost like...like...like...a hard ass negotiation!

Hockey by Jan 1..not Nov 2

[Meds]

I bet it takes about 4 to 5 hours for the media and general public to switch back to the owners side.

If the Players simply re-hashed their previous offer it will be seen as a refusal to negotiate and more stone walling.

Not that I think public opinion is all that relevant.

pot and his fuckin hockey...jesus H man we are talking RRHOF here...

Ummm.....can we get a moderator to keep this thread on topic or something?

[Meds]

I bet it takes about 4 to 5 hours for the media and general public to switch back to the owners side.

If the Players simply re-hashed their previous offer it will be seen as a refusal to negotiate and more stone walling.

Not that I think public opinion is all that relevant.

I'm sure that's bettman's wish is for everyone to believe he did his best before losing the season as if he and his position are victims on all this. Hopefully more will think like I do and that he and Jacobs and his ilk are just full of shit.

The equitable solution is out there, with no need for the pressure tactics or gun boat diplomacy.

Regardless of whether or not he orchestrated this for a desired verdict in the court of public opinion or not, the offer that Bettman and Co. put on the table was pretty fair and most definitely a good starting point for negotiations to really gain traction on. The players rejected it outright. The PA has been playing stall and evade since the All-Star break, showing up late for every meeting, never giving any concrete figures, just estimates and conjecture (I believe someone else pointed that out on here, either that or I read it in a Hockey Central column).

I don't think anyone is going to see Bettman and the owners as the victims, but they are the only side presenting anything that is worth looking at for both sides.

[Meds]

Just heard Fehr's response on the radio...seems pretty level headed and reasonable to me. Owners should honor the contracts you signed and split revenues 50/50 going forward. The owners are simply trying strong arm tactics to cut the amount the players take. I don't see why the players should give anything back at this point.

Yup, apparently the third offer the NHLPA gave had HHR at 50/50 as long as owners honoured contracts already in place.

This seems perfectly logical to me.

But of course we're dealing with the little prick!

I thought that the release that Bettman issued with their last propsal said that the players were guaranteed to receive all the money promised them and that there would be no roll-back.

It calls for a 50-50 split of revenues between owners and players and includes a deferred salary plan designed to ensure that players would receive all the money they've been promised in existing contracts.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407490

I'm guessing that's not factoring in escrow.....

As for no linkage and factoring on projected growth.....that is retarded. The NHL's growth is already taking a hit in non-hockey markets and soon will be in some of the bigger markets. Everyone who is talking about the economy being in the tank is bang on. The joys of capitalism, out sourcing, and having a society that is living on credit. With all of this going on the PA is completely insane to be asking for assurances on projected growth, no sane business owner is going to be OK with that in a world with such uncertain financial futures.

[ukcanuck]

Just heard Fehr's response on the radio...seems pretty level headed and reasonable to me. Owners should honor the contracts you signed and split revenues 50/50 going forward. The owners are simply trying strong arm tactics to cut the amount the players take. I don't see why the players should give anything back at this point.

Yup, apparently the third offer the NHLPA gave had HHR at 50/50 as long as owners honoured contracts already in place.

This seems perfectly logical to me.

But of course we're dealing with the little prick!

I thought that the release that Bettman issued with their last propsal said that the players were guaranteed to receive all the money promised them and that there would be no roll-back.

It calls for a 50-50 split of revenues between owners and players and includes a deferred salary plan designed to ensure that players would receive all the money they've been promised in existing contracts.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407490

I'm guessing that's not factoring in escrow.....

As for no linkage and factoring on projected growth.....that is retarded. The NHL's growth is already taking a hit in non-hockey markets and soon will be in some of the bigger markets. Everyone who is talking about the economy being in the tank is bang on. The joys of capitalism, out sourcing, and having a society that is living on credit. With all of this going on the PA is completely insane to be asking for assurances on projected growth, no sane business owner is going to be OK with that in a world with such uncertain financial futures.

but the fact is the league has grown and is worth more every year during and through the worst economic times since the great depression. the players have every right to expect that growth will continue, it would be suicide and stupid and irresponsible to go "oh gee we are sorry the industry is worth 3 billion dollars and has grown pretty much ever year since before Bettman became president, here lets give you back the money you agreed to pay us now and tell you what moving forward we'll take even less because we dont know it might be worse for you guys next year"

[Southern_Canuck]

How about if the players are so sure that the league revenues will continue to grow, they put their money where their mouth is and link themselves to revenue?

Hahaha, Player to Owner "I'm pretty sure you'll make more money next year, so I'll take a guaranteed raise, thank you very much. Oh, and if you actually make less money (or lose more, if you were already in the red)? Well too bad for you for being so stupid as to agree to my asinine proposal...!"

Owner to Player, "What the hell?"

The main problem in all the rhetoric is the notion that the salary cap and the individual contract amounts were "real" numbers. Since 2005, the only real number has been HRR, and percentage of HRR - the real salaries have been calculated off of that. I notice the players haven't brought up the years in which they received MORE than their stated contract dollar amount - when 57% of HRR exceeded the total of all of their salaries...

S_C

[darren]

For those who think, "the players are the show".... they are part of the show but they aren't the entire show. A lot of things go into generating that $3.3bn product.

If you have forty NHL calibre players hanging out on a frozen pond in uncle jake's backyard, what do you have? Not much.
They need equipment and uniforms... paid for by the owners.
There needs to be a ref, paid for by the owners.
There needs to be some coaching, ditto.
Where do you find these guys? You need scouting. Paid for by the owners.
Twenty of the guys are from out of town so they need first class flights and hotels, paid for by the owners.
They needs a decent rink to play on... and, what's that? You want a comfortable seat to sit in, and a place to take a leak in the first intermission? And there are 20,000 of you? Sounds like there needs to be a $100m building for the game to happen in. Built and paid for by the owners. (in most cases)
The owners are writing cheques to cover all this, in most cases with little assurance they will make money at the end of the year. They are taking a RISK, and that is value added as surely as anything else in this list. (The ones who ARE sure to make money every year paid through the nose for the privilege, and deserve a return on that investment).

No, I don't pay $100 to watch Aqualini and Darryl Katz skate around at Rogers Arena, but without the things they provide behind the scenes there would be no show.

As this drags on, and the players miss half a season, they can count up what it's costing them. Half the owners were losing money, so the lockout doesn't cost THEM anything!

[donlever]

...don't forget per diems as well as fancy dancy club house meals, first rate and first come (well ahead of the common man) medical and dental service with top of the heap doctors for not only the players but their families as well.

It's a brutal existence I know.

[ukcanuck]

How about if the players are so sure that the league revenues will continue to grow, they put their money where their mouth is and link themselves to revenue?

Hahaha, Player to Owner "I'm pretty sure you'll make more money next year, so I'll take a guaranteed raise, thank you very much. Oh, and if you actually make less money (or lose more, if you were already in the red)? Well too bad for you for being so stupid as to agree to my asinine proposal...!"

Owner to Player, "What the hell?"

The main problem in all the rhetoric is the notion that the salary cap and the individual contract amounts were "real" numbers. Since 2005, the only real number has been HRR, and percentage of HRR - the real salaries have been calculated off of that. I notice the players haven't brought up the years in which they received MORE than their stated contract dollar amount - when 57% of HRR exceeded the total of all of their salaries...

S_C

That would be absolutely fine but the owners have different values for what's revenue. They have offered different percentages off of different numbers already. "If we Include this in HRR you can have this % if we take this out of HRR you can have a higher %". The problem is how would you like to bargain that number with guys who have track records like the guy in Edmonton? Just how much of that sweet heart deal that Katz is trying to rape Edmonton for is gonna be included in HRR? IMO it should be all of it including the concerts and snow shoe conventions because without the Oilers the city is not building any of it, but you know it wont be.

[Boston Canucker]

I pretty much agree with Grange's take on it. The up and down swing of expectations and disappointments is not worth getting caught up in. They are doing the negotiation dance, both sides, but I think there is a light at the end of this tunnel, even if it is not as close as we'd like it to be. I don't see it being settled in the next week, never thought that was likely but I still see around an early to mid Dec deal, hockey by Jan 1. A 50 game season would be fine.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lock ... fore_dawn/

[Potatoe1]

it would be suicide and stupid and irresponsible to go "oh gee we are sorry the industry is worth 3 billion dollars and has grown pretty much ever year since before Bettman became president, here lets give you back the money you agreed to pay us now and tell you what moving forward we'll take even less because we dont know it might be worse for you guys next year"

Who said the players share shouldn't grow as revenues increase?

The problem is the players want to project growth based on a 6 or 7 year estimate and lock it in. The owners want to stick with the current system that gives players their share of "real" growth.