There will be a strike

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ukcanuck
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:35 am

Pot...
I can't explain how anyone can hide 150 mil from the taxman because I never said anyone was hiding money from the government.

The PA has every right to audit any books the NHL keeps regarding the business they say they are doing but they do not have to show anyone the books they show to the taxman. The only books by the way we can be sure are on the up and up.
Are the books they show the PA auditors cooked? Of course not. But it's not exactly the same information. And if you can't see that it's easier to hide one truth inside another truth I can't help you understand what I'm talking about.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:42 am

Pot....
Sacred, sacrosanct, intimate, forthwith, binding, Inviolable...pick an adjective you like better (shrug)

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Potatoe1 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:25 am

ukcanuck wrote:
Pot...
I can't explain how anyone can hide 150 mil from the taxman because I never said anyone was hiding money from the government.
Ok so explain how the owners can hide revenue from the PA's auditors.

It's clear you dont understand what an "audit" means so I will explain...

The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.

It would be incredibly difficult for the owners to hide revenues of any significance in the current system.

If you think otherwise then explain how they do it?


The PA has every right to audit any books the NHL keeps regarding the business they say they are doing but they do not have to show anyone the books they show to the taxman.
How do you know this? Do you have a link or are you just speculating here?
And if you can't see that it's easier to hide one truth inside another truth I can't help you understand what I'm talking about.
I'm not sure "you" even understand what you are talking about?

You didn't seem to know that the NHLPA had audit rights (until I told you), and you don't seem to know what an "audit" actually means (until I told you). Yet you are incredibly quick you accuse the owners of deceit despite having no idea how they are being deceptive.

It's clear you are way out of your depth on the accounting / business / finance side of this discussion, and I would encourage you to stick to the areas you understand.

You are quick to throw out very heavy allegations (Rocky Wirtz hides his money in the Caymans?) despite not having a strong grasp of what it is you are talking about.

I would encourage you to stop doing this as it undermines some of the decent arguments that you make.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:16 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:  Ok so explain how the owners can hide revenue from the PA's auditors.
we have already had this argument about just what counts as revenue. 
The PA can count receipts all day but won't find a penny of revenue that's not HRR revenue...
Before  you jump on the PA agreed to what's HRR bandwagon, that was a forced agreement and is still contested all over the media.
common sense has got to tell you the owners are not going to volunteer any information that hurts their cause.
That's one way to "hide" revenue...it's simply not revenue and you have to agree because you've  argued exactly that. 
It's clear you dont understand what an "audit" means so I will explain...
 
You can make your argument without lowering to this. :)
The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.

It would be incredibly difficult for the owners to hide revenues of any significance in the current system.
As I said above and I don't need you to tell me that the PA has audit rights, nearly every time the PA has a press conference they have argued they don't agree with the league's numbers, doesn't take a genius to figure out that they are looking at books given to them by the league and it's also pretty simple to deduce that there is some sort of agreement between them in the interest of getting a deal done. 
Would the league open themselves up to a lawsuit by intentionally lying to the PA auditors, no one can say that. But the consequences for doing so is not the same as lying to the taxman is it? 
How many lawsuits are going on at anyone time on wall street, can you tell me?

If you think otherwise then explain how they do it?[/quote]
I would counter that the "system" is a lot like the iron clad salary cap system that provided the "cost certainty" they got in the last CBA...not so certain.

pot wrote:
The PA has every right to audit any books the NHL keeps regarding the business they say they are doing but they do not have to show anyone the books they show to the taxman. 
How do you know this? Do you have a link or are you just speculating here?
Do I need a link? you are a business man, who else do you show your books too? if your employees asked to see your tax returns would you show them? How about  you show me the law that counteracts your right to privacy?
pot wrote:
And if you can't see that it's easier to hide one truth inside another truth I can't help you understand what I'm talking about.
I'm not sure "you" even understand what you are talking about?

You didn't seem to know that the NHLPA had audit rights (until I told you), and you don't seem to know what an "audit" actually means (until I told you). Yet you are incredibly quick you accuse the owners of deceit despite having no idea how they are being deceptive.

It's clear you are way out of your depth on the accounting / business / finance side of this discussion, and I would encourage you to stick to the areas you understand.
This all just rhetoric...it doesn't strengthen your argument...
I forget what is your argument? That I am 
 Stupid ? Lol
I thought that what I had originally said was it's easy to point out the players pay as that is public knowledge, but no one really knows what the owners make. 
pot wrote: You are quick to throw out very heavy  allegations (Rocky Wirtz hides his money in the Caymans?) despite not having a strong grasp of what it is you are talking about.
Heavy allegations? what's the crime I am accusing Wirtz et al? banking off shore? 
If they don't it must be the local fishermen who've got all those accounts ...
I would encourage you to stop doing this as it undermines some of the decent arguments that you make.
You know what this a goddamn hockey message board, it's all speculation by definition. 
You don't know what I do for a living and only know what you tell me about yourself and for god's sake we cite Internet links to support out arguments. How about we lighten up a little :) :) 

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by vic » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:30 pm

Preseason Game 1 Tonight vs. Calgary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 856HU6_W9s#!

Kind of lame, but I'm gonna miss this game if it isn't resolved soon....

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:03 pm

Potatoe1 wrote: Ok so explain how the owners can hide revenue from the PA's auditors.

It's clear you dont understand what an "audit" means so I will explain...

The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.

It would be incredibly difficult for the owners to hide revenues of any significance in the current system.

If you think otherwise then explain how they do it?


blah blah blah



It's clear you are way out of your depth on the accounting / business / finance side of this discussion, and I would encourage you to stick to the areas you understand.

Since I am out of my depth and you are the self appointed know it all about NHL finances...

perhaps you can explain how all of this would not help Katz bottom line and how it would appear in a PA audit and more importantly, did you notice that Katz refused a PUBLIC hearing on the matter.

This is what I meant before you
That prompted Mayor Stephen Mandel to ask Katz to appear before council in a public session to explain the new demands, but Oilers owner declined.

The original deal for a new 18,400-seat arena in Edmonton was agreed to last October and was to be funded mostly by taxpayers.

The city would have paid $125-million, although councillors have since been told that land sales and interest will boost that figure to more than $300-million. That number also doesn’t include millions more in transportation development.

The Oilers were to pay operating costs for the facility along with $5.5-million a year for 35 years to help fund construction. In return, the team was to get all profits from Oilers games, trade shows and concerts for 11 months out of the year, along with naming rights worth an estimated $1-million annually.

The team would have also received $20-million over 10 years from the city for advertising.

Councillors were told in a closed door meeting Katz wants $6-million per year from taxpayers to offset the cost of running the building, along with other concessions.

When details of the meeting were leaked to the public, Katz said the $6-million was always part of the deal.

“To suggest I tried to change the deal at the last minute is really unfortunate,” Katz told a sports radio show.

Councillors disagreed, noting the subsidy clause is not part of the original agreement.
Katz is the latest in a long line of pigs looking to stick their nose in the public trough and just like anyone with their hands in the cookie jar they want to do it on the low down.

Your honest Abe business schtick is just that, there aint no such thing as honourable business, there is just business and winners and losers.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Potatoe1 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:30 pm

ukcanuck wrote:



Since I am out of my depth and you are the self appointed know it all about NHL finances...

perhaps you can explain how all of this would not help Katz bottom line and how it would appear in a PA audit and more importantly, did you notice that Katz refused a PUBLIC hearing on the matter.
Look at you all bitter...

Katz want's his team to be in the best financial situation possible.

Much like the players have every right to get the best deal they can, so does the owner of the Edmonton Oilers.

And no he doesn't have to disclose his financials to anyone other then the tax man, his bankers and the NHLPA.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:03 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:



Since I am out of my depth and you are the self appointed know it all about NHL finances...

perhaps you can explain how all of this would not help Katz bottom line and how it would appear in a PA audit and more importantly, did you notice that Katz refused a PUBLIC hearing on the matter.
Look at you all bitter...

Katz want's his team to be in the best financial situation possible.

Much like the players have every right to get the best deal they can, so does the owner of the Edmonton Oilers.

And no he doesn't have to disclose his financials to anyone other then the tax man, his bankers and the NHLPA.
lol bitter? isn't that what you wanted?

Not really but I'm even more amazed that for you, public money going on the sly to a man wealthy enough to buy an NHL team is just good business, while supporting the players trying to get the best share they can for the sweat they put in is unreasonable.

But now more than that I am a little angry with myself for even giving your posts the time of day because here's your chance to prove that you actually know what you accuse me of not knowing and took me to task for yet you totally evade the chance.

You see, I am thinking that the tax concessions, development costs and bylaw changes the city of Edmonton will have to give Katz in order to keep his team has real dollar value that won't show up in the PA accounting because its not HRR. now I am admitting that I dont know for sure maybe you do?

You should hope that you do know because if you dont then it lends credence to my point that the player's money is public knowledge and its been real easy to point that out time and again. however, on the other hand the owners worth,the source of that wealth, their income, profit and losses are not as public, generally hidden and not even the NHLPA really knows for sure.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Cornuck » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:49 pm

Speaking of lockouts and strikes, did the NFL get their replacement refs from out of work NHL refs?
2018-19 - The Road to 82

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Per » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:05 am

Potatoe1 wrote:
I have been a small business owners since I finished my degree (which was in Business BTW).

I am quite familiar with the tax man and I think it's kind of amusing that you charcterise the relationship as "sacred" :lol:
So you're saying the tax man doesn't have you on your knees praying... Nor bending over like an altar boy?

But he's certainly extracting his tithe, eh?
Whatever you do, always give 100 %!
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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Potatoe1 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:43 pm

ukcanuck wrote: Not really but I'm even more amazed that for you, public money going on the sly to a man wealthy enough to buy an NHL team is just good business, while supporting the players trying to get the best share they can for the sweat they put in is unreasonable.
When did I ever say that the players position was "unreasonable" I have stated repeatedly that they should try and get the best deal they can.

I'm a middle guy who sees both sides. The only reason you and I disagree is because your position is so far tilted towards the players. Well that and you seem to enjoy talking out of your ass (smile)

But now more than that I am a little angry with myself for even giving your posts the time of day
You certainly seem angry about something.....


You see, I am thinking that the tax concessions, development costs and bylaw changes the city of Edmonton will have to give Katz in order to keep his team has real dollar value that won't show up in the PA accounting because its not HRR. now I am admitting that I dont know for sure maybe you do?
Of course it isn't revenue. I'm sure the city maintains ownership of the portion it puts up.

That said, the teams revenue will go up drastically because of expanded seating and sky boxes. That of course is HRR.


You should hope that you do know because if you dont then it lends credence to my point that the player's money is public knowledge and its been real easy to point that out time and again. however, on the other hand the owners worth,the source of that wealth, their income, profit and losses are not as public, generally hidden and not even the NHLPA really knows for sure.

The NHLPA has full access, so they do know. You are right though we are talking about private companies so the information is not public. My guess is the NHLPA and it's auditors have non-disclosure agreements with the teams so they cant really comment on the owners financial position.

As for the players salaries being public, the main proponent of that is the NHLPA it's self.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Potatoe1 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:47 pm

Per wrote:
Potatoe1 wrote:
I have been a small business owners since I finished my degree (which was in Business BTW).

I am quite familiar with the tax man and I think it's kind of amusing that you charcterise the relationship as "sacred" :lol:
So you're saying the tax man doesn't have you on your knees praying... Nor bending over like an altar boy?

But he's certainly extracting his tithe, eh?

You may be right about the altar boy bit :)

To be honest my experience with the CRA has been reasonably smooth and I have always been fairly aggressive when it comes to write offs.

If you have a decent accountant and you get everything submitted on time, it's typically smooth sailing.

Audits are generally triggers by mistakes and late filings.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Topper » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:55 pm

Potatoe1 wrote: You certainly seem angry about something.....
Survey says..........Missed his email from Jason Kenny.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by ukcanuck » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:48 pm

potato 1 wrote: You certainly seem angry about something.....
gee would it have something to do with the unwarranted smugness, I wonder?  

Or maybe the dishonest tactics your employing to try to appear superior? 

let's review a little shall we? 

I said in the post you responded to: 
UKcanuck wrote: Anyway, I thought you asked philosophically how anyone can support the players, and since I've been pretty vocal about it, I thought I would be philosophical about it in kind. As for being precise about estimates, nobody can be precise, because we can't be precise about all the numbers.
But this is  what you choose to focus on:
UKcanuck wrote: the numbers they release to the PA and the rest of us, academics and laymen alike are the numbers they choose to release and you can bet your ass, seriously, the real numbers are a closely guarded secret.
you ignore that I prefaced my statements saying I was being philosophical and not trying to be specific 

And then you jump on me wanting specific examples knowing full well that is beyond the scope of my claims or argument and this forum altogether. 
potato1 wrote: Ok so explain the diference between the rights of the PA and the rights of the IRS with regard to their ability to audit NHL teams?

While you are at it explain how a company with 100 to 150 mill in revenue is able to hide signifigant pourtions of it and still evade both the tax man and the PA's auditors (who are likely to be top notch BTW)
Despite the fact that you yourself recently cant or won't do it yourself,  I give you an example and tactic that we both know is in fact being argued by the NHL and the PA in the press- the different percentages based on DIFFERENT accountings by both sides...or in other words the league having different versions of HRR which   Shows that the PA does not accept the leagues numbers which in turn points to the suspicion that the NHL is not forthcoming with all of their information. Which was all I was alluding to in the first place.
potato 1 wrote: The PA has the right to hire their own accounting firm to go through the books, records, ledgers, etc at any time (15 teams a year). They can double check deposits, look at invoices, double check ticket revenue, view local cable deals, hell they can probably go down and double check the cash till statements at GM place.
More than anything what's pissing me off about the whole thing is that from the quote above, clearly you arguing something different than I am and while your sitting there all happy with yourself. you're totally and completely missing the point yet again and still...

It makes me want to repeat or rephrase my point but you'll probably  only just pick on some red herring, take it out of context and twist it to your advantage...

However, in the interest of fair play I shall try again...

In my humble opinion, it's to one's competitive advantage to hold ones cards as close to vest as possible in business.

When the owners and players agreed to a salary cap they linked the cap to revenue.
when they did so, they must have  negotiated what constitutes hockey related revenue, I am pretty sure (because it's logical) that the owners did not volunteer any information to the players and their lawyers other than what was asked for. If the players missed it or an argument could be made against being included, these professional businessmen who are experts at the game of  getting rich and winning at it are going to keep it a closely guarded secret. 

(Just like the taxman does not volunteer loopholes they know exist. Oh they have to tell you if you ask, but if you make a mistake and pay more than you have to because you didn't know about a paragraph in the tax law, they aren't going to voluntarily educate you. )

The grey area between what is revenue and what is income from other sources including ways to put off expenses for another day... which the owners and their lawyers search for full time, as they rightly should, means that the PA will always be catching up and never in a position of strength... It is this that makes me wonder about the owners position.

I don't trust the owners when they claim poverty because I don't know what the term means to them.
 
In corporate speak losing money means not making as much profit as expected.  It's another language altogether than the one called English. 

Sure the players lawyers can go through every sheet of paper and till tape 15 times a year,  whatever, that's all fine and dandy. But they will never find what is not there.

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Re: There will be a strike

Post by Potatoe1 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:26 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
potato 1 wrote: You certainly seem angry about something.....
gee would it have something to do with the unwarranted smugness, I wonder?  
Smug --- ME !!

No way, not this guy ! (smile)


And then you jump on me wanting specific examples knowing full well that is beyond the scope of my claims or argument and this forum altogether. 
I'm not the one who accused the owners of manipulating their HRR, nor am I the one who claimed the teams use 2 sets of books.

You are the one making there types of acusations so you are the one who needs to demonstrate some type of conceptual understanding of what it is they are doing.

The reason I took issue with your statements is that you were making fairly heavy accusations not only with out evidence but with out even the basic understanding of how or why someone would do the things you were saying.

This is pretty much the textbook definition of "talking out ones ass".

More than anything what's pissing me off about the whole thing is that from the quote above, clearly you arguing something different than I am and while your sitting there all happy with yourself. you're totally and completely missing the point yet again and still...

The point seems to be changing as we move along.

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