Shane Doan

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Jovocop
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by Jovocop »

Fred wrote: There's no doubt vcr is not exactly a hard nosed team. That has to be done during the season when wins and losses are not so important. The trouble is IMO every time one of the tough players takes a penalty AV sits him....he just doesn't like penalties. I guess that's why the tougher member of the cast will not return and I have to say I don't see Volpatti as a solution ( apart from one lucky punch with Winchester)
Do you remember what Ben Eager did in the WCF against the Canucks? I am not a fan of AV but I do not want any stupid goon on my team neither.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by Canuck-One »

Jovocop wrote:
Fred wrote: There's no doubt vcr is not exactly a hard nosed team. That has to be done during the season when wins and losses are not so important. The trouble is IMO every time one of the tough players takes a penalty AV sits him....he just doesn't like penalties. I guess that's why the tougher member of the cast will not return and I have to say I don't see Volpatti as a solution ( apart from one lucky punch with Winchester)
Do you remember what Ben Eager did in the WCF against the Canucks? I am not a fan of AV but I do not want any stupid goon on my team neither.

I also remember what Shawn Thornton did as well and I'd take him in a heart beat.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by Strangelove »

Fred wrote: The trouble is IMO every time one of the tough players takes a penalty AV sits him....he just doesn't like penalties.
AGREED.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by wienerdog »

The_Pauser wrote:
wienerdog wrote: Why? Beacuse I don't feel comfortable paying a 40 year old inevitably broken-down Doan $6.5M for a paltry point production in 4 years, that's why.

Just remember Naslund at the end of his tenure here and how badly everyone wanted him off the roster. Doan will = late Nuck career Naslund v2.0.

And what's the alternative? It's to NOT pay him that much and let him sign eleswhere. You yourself said he may or may not be the piece we're looking for, but then you insinuate that this team won't succeed in the playoffs without him.

Well, this team was going nowhere after the season before last. They left nothing in the tank after game 7 and had zero recovery time. Kesler was fucked and everyone was gassed. Still, they managed a 2nd President's trophy, despite losing Daniel to a concussion at season's end - which fucked us in the playoffs, btw.

Sorry, I dont buy the "collapse" argument. I certainly don't buy that it means we need Doan at all costs.

Why the hell would we start opening the vaults for a guy that might or might not address what this team needs?

People just keep expecting that hail-mary manoeuvers = Cup, but that's not the case.

Doan at $5M, ok, but barely - precisely because it's not clear whether he will adequately get us over the hump.

Doan at $6.5M... fuck no.
Shane Doan would be one of the most valuable forward on our roster. If he's not scoring, he's at least playing strong defensive hockey and he is playing physical. Last year he logged over 200 hits...we don't have a single player in our top 6 even close to that figure.

I said I can't guarantee that Doan will solve our problems, but I think that he will help. I don't know if the Sedins are going to go ice cold and get completely shut down in 3 of 4 playoff series like the 2011 playoffs. I don't know that Kesler doesn't get completely ripped a part and injured again. I can't guarantee that Doan comes in and lights it up, no more than I could guarantee Alex Ovechkin could come in here and get his career back on track. At best, it's an attempt to solve a huge problem this team has.

Shane Doan is in excellent physical shape. While he may not be a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point forward at age 40, I think he has likely 3 more years left at this level. That final year coulud be tough, but at least I can see him being a valuable asset on our 3rd line at that point. Who knows what the cap will be like by that point. Another option is to front-load his contract so that the salary portion is low for the 4th year. That would leave him little incentive to continue playing (especially if we have won a Cup by then, and if we haven't then this team has a lot more to worry about than just Shane Doan), and we trade his contract to a cap floor team a month before he announces his retirement. They get to keep his cap hit on their books, we don't get stuck with his cap hit, and Doan enjoys his retirement.

This team won a President's trophy because our goaltenders played out of this world. If not for them, we probably end up in 3rd in the West. Once the playoffs hit and we faced stronger competition our team was dead in the water. I saw no life in this team in the playoffs, and it was the exact same attitude as we saw throughout the regular season.

We can either sign Shane Doan and address our needs, or we can hope that someone like Raymond or Higgins or Kassian are good enough to stick in our top 6 for the regular season, and hold our breaths trying to ignore the reality that in the playoffs we will be leaving our goalie out to dry by not being able to give him more than 1-2 goals of offensive support. But then again, all the goalie haters can turn their attention to Schneider being the next choker in this city.
First off, it's been generally accepted that Doan will get an NTC or full NMC from whichever team signs him. He's already very reticent to leave PHO to finish his career elsewhere, so it's highly unlikely he'll open himself up to finishing it two elsewheres.

In fact, it's pretty much common sense given the information we have on Doan, so stop trying to make a four year deal look more palatable by shunting the guy off to some other team in the 4th year of the contract. If you sign the guy for Sedin money+ for four years, he is going to count against your Cap for that grotesque amount of dosh until the last day of the deal. There won't be any offloading.

It's also widely speculated that the Cap is actually going down, not up, btw.

So, that brings us to your speculations of where Mr. Doan is headed in his career. You're acknowledging that he's a 60pt guy at best right now - well, given the physical nautre of his play, he's likely to slide significantly as he heads towards 40. Maybe not, but the safe money is certainly on the former.

And what if he has an injury - one like Kesler? What then? You do realize that he's a 35+ signing and you can't take the guy off your books.

Ok - ask yourself: do you really want to pay $6.5M+ for a guy that has slowed significantly and can't break 40 or 45 points, Pauser? A guy who looks good on your 3rd line, but can't play his way up the lineup? Because that's what you're rolling the dice on here.

We could really really really use Doan, we're agreed on that - but we need a 4yr deal at $6.5M+ like a hole in the head.

One last thing: it should be pointed out that you have no problem with this type of contract for Doan, yet you argue up and down out of the other side of your mouth that Edler is a $4.2M dman.

:eh:

Something's not adding up, amigo.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by Potatoe1 »

wienerdog wrote:
One last thing: it should be pointed out that you have no problem with this type of contract for Doan, yet you argue up and down out of the other side of your mouth that Edler is a $4.2M dman.

:eh:

Something's not adding up, amigo.
Kind of funny how that works...

If I had to choose between Edler and Doan for next year only I take Edler 100% yet people are grumbling about paying him over 5.5 despite the fact he will only get better.

Doan will most likely decline significantly over the next year or 2 and some want to offer him up a fairly major contract.....

Canuck fan seem to want to pay a lot more for players from other teams then they want to spend on better players that are already here.

Alex burrows seems to get 5 to 10 more goals a year then Doan, has loads of grit, is better defensively, and is way younger, anyone want to give him 6.5 over 4 years ?
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by SKYO »

Potatoe1 wrote: Kind of funny how that works...

If I had to choose between Edler and Doan for next year only I take Edler 100% yet people are grumbling about paying him over 5.5 despite the fact he will only get better.

Doan will most likely decline significantly over the next year or 2 and some want to offer him up a fairly major contract.....

Canuck fan seem to want to pay a lot more for players from other teams then they want to spend on better players that are already here.

Alex burrows seems to get 5 to 10 more goals a year then Doan, has loads of grit, is better defensively, and is way younger, anyone want to give him 6.5 over 4 years ?
Luckily MG/Gilman are at the helm here hey tater?
Can the Canucks just win a Cup within the next 5 years.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by FAN »

Not sure if this has been brought up, but will AV trust that Doan is not anti-french and give Doan the star treatment?
Potatoe1 wrote: Canuck fan seem to want to pay a lot more for players from other teams then they want to spend on better players that are already here.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house/wife? :shock:
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by Topper »

Potatoe1 wrote: Alex burrows seems to get 5 to 10 more goals a year then Doan, has loads of grit, is better defensively, and is way younger, anyone want to give him 6.5 over 4 years ?
At least someone pays attention.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by CaptainTrev »

Potatoe1 wrote:
Canuck fan seem to want to pay a lot more for players from other teams then they want to spend on better players that are already here.

Alex burrows seems to get 5 to 10 more goals a year then Doan, has loads of grit, is better defensively, and is way younger, anyone want to give him 6.5 over 4 years ?
I tend to agree with your point; a lot of Canucks fans are getting caught up in the novelty factor of Doan, myself included. But comparing his relative worth to that of Burrows misses the mark.

If Doan is truly making himself available, then Canucks have a very limited window to make an impression on him, especially considering how reluctant he is to even be on the market in the first place. That's going to require an "overpayment" On the other hand, in Burrows the Canucks have a player who is already sold on Vancouver, and with whom they still have 11 months to negotiate.

For the record, unless Burrows regresses back to a 4th line level this season I think I would be OK with him pulling down north of $5M on his next contract. Bit of a different scenario since it woudn't be a a 35+ contract, and $6.5 would be a bit of a stretch. But still...
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by SKYO »

IF we don't get Doan I really hope we get Versteeg from the Panthers, as our 2nd line ABSOLUTELY NEEDS a revamp,
as Raymond Kesler Booth for our 2nd line isn't gonna win us a cup, a healthy Raymond got us a paltry 2 goals in 24 games in the big show (2011), so one has to think a more fragile Ray isn't going to be much better. Basically our 2nd line sucks with regards to chemistry etc.

Booth on his natural left side is preferred with Kesler and Versteeg on the right with his playing making/vision abilities would be an awesome 2nd line imo.
Can the Canucks just win a Cup within the next 5 years.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by The_Pauser »

wienerdog wrote:
Shane Doan would be one of the most valuable forward on our roster. If he's not scoring, he's at least playing strong defensive hockey and he is playing physical. Last year he logged over 200 hits...we don't have a single player in our top 6 even close to that figure.

I said I can't guarantee that Doan will solve our problems, but I think that he will help. I don't know if the Sedins are going to go ice cold and get completely shut down in 3 of 4 playoff series like the 2011 playoffs. I don't know that Kesler doesn't get completely ripped a part and injured again. I can't guarantee that Doan comes in and lights it up, no more than I could guarantee Alex Ovechkin could come in here and get his career back on track. At best, it's an attempt to solve a huge problem this team has.

Shane Doan is in excellent physical shape. While he may not be a 20-25 goal, 50-60 point forward at age 40, I think he has likely 3 more years left at this level. That final year coulud be tough, but at least I can see him being a valuable asset on our 3rd line at that point. Who knows what the cap will be like by that point. Another option is to front-load his contract so that the salary portion is low for the 4th year. That would leave him little incentive to continue playing (especially if we have won a Cup by then, and if we haven't then this team has a lot more to worry about than just Shane Doan), and we trade his contract to a cap floor team a month before he announces his retirement. They get to keep his cap hit on their books, we don't get stuck with his cap hit, and Doan enjoys his retirement.

This team won a President's trophy because our goaltenders played out of this world. If not for them, we probably end up in 3rd in the West. Once the playoffs hit and we faced stronger competition our team was dead in the water. I saw no life in this team in the playoffs, and it was the exact same attitude as we saw throughout the regular season.

We can either sign Shane Doan and address our needs, or we can hope that someone like Raymond or Higgins or Kassian are good enough to stick in our top 6 for the regular season, and hold our breaths trying to ignore the reality that in the playoffs we will be leaving our goalie out to dry by not being able to give him more than 1-2 goals of offensive support. But then again, all the goalie haters can turn their attention to Schneider being the next choker in this city.
First off, it's been generally accepted that Doan will get an NTC or full NMC from whichever team signs him. He's already very reticent to leave PHO to finish his career elsewhere, so it's highly unlikely he'll open himself up to finishing it two elsewheres.

In fact, it's pretty much common sense given the information we have on Doan, so stop trying to make a four year deal look more palatable by shunting the guy off to some other team in the 4th year of the contract. If you sign the guy for Sedin money+ for four years, he is going to count against your Cap for that grotesque amount of dosh until the last day of the deal. There won't be any offloading.

It's also widely speculated that the Cap is actually going down, not up, btw.

So, that brings us to your speculations of where Mr. Doan is headed in his career. You're acknowledging that he's a 60pt guy at best right now - well, given the physical nautre of his play, he's likely to slide significantly as he heads towards 40. Maybe not, but the safe money is certainly on the former.

And what if he has an injury - one like Kesler? What then? You do realize that he's a 35+ signing and you can't take the guy off your books.

Ok - ask yourself: do you really want to pay $6.5M+ for a guy that has slowed significantly and can't break 40 or 45 points, Pauser? A guy who looks good on your 3rd line, but can't play his way up the lineup? Because that's what you're rolling the dice on here.

We could really really really use Doan, we're agreed on that - but we need a 4yr deal at $6.5M+ like a hole in the head.

One last thing: it should be pointed out that you have no problem with this type of contract for Doan, yet you argue up and down out of the other side of your mouth that Edler is a $4.2M dman.

:eh:

Something's not adding up, amigo.[/quote]

It really would help if you actually read my post, as opposed to seeing the word "trade" and all of a sudden assuming that means Doan would end up playing for a different team. I've bolded the key part of my statement for you to go back and re-read (or read for the first time).

It's widely speculated that the cap is going down at the start of a new CBA; however, that doesn't mean the cap won't go up in subsequent years like it has been. Revenues will continue to rise and the cap will continue to go up after being knocked back down in a one-time event. Also, a decrease in salary cap will likely accompany a salary rollback. If we get Doan signed now, that rollback would affect his deal as well.

The safe money has been that Doan's production would significantly slide from age 30 to age 36. At age 30, Doan scored 25 points at even strength, versus 36 this past season. He has not seen a decline in play, rather some would say he's gotten better. I argue, all things considered, he's at least playing at the same level as he has his entire career. His goals are down a bit, but that's also a reflection of his team and the lack of offensive talent around him. Doan isn't going to be a guy who can come in and dominate a game by scoring a hat-trick and putting the team on his back...rather, Doan will be an excellent piece who will mesh well with the pieces we already have, and give us an element in our top 6 that we sorely lack and very well could put us over the top.

If Doan has an injury, we put him on LTIR. Just like Philly has done with Pronger who's on a very long-term 35+ contract. What if we trade Luongo and Schneider blows his knee? What if our defense gets decimated again like in 2007-08? What if what if what if? Based on his track record, Doan has maintained excellent health so there really isn't any reason to believe Doan will have injury problems here...at least he isn't any riskier as Kesler or now Daniel Sedin due to his concussion.

I will be comfortable paying Doan $6.5M as a broken down player in the 4th year of his contract if he has won a Cup in either of the first 3 years. I strongly believe he can help us win a Cup this year.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by wienerdog »

My reading comprehension is just fine, cabron.

What you can't seem to comprehend that Doan has been dragging his ass because he doesn't want to leave Phoenix period. If you want to run with the rumours, he's already turned down the big $$ - he's one of those rare players for whom the organization for which he plays is everything and he wants to win a Cup with the right team.

In my opinion, if he chooses to leave PHO for another team, you can bet the new jersey will be the one he retires in. What the hell is this "trade and then retire" crap? Do you really think that's the kind of player Doan is? Really?

Sundin didn't do it for TOR, Doan won't do it for your Vancouver Canucks. The writing is on the wall, Pauser.

Fool yourself into thinking otherwise if you want and keep making up your fantasy trade scenarios. I could care less and I'm done arguing why GM's shouldn't hand out $6.5M+ contracts to players over 35 that "may or may not" push their team over the top. If you can't see the folly in that, I have nothing more for you.

Suffice to say I'm glad you're not at the helm of this hockey team.
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by The_Pauser »

wienerdog wrote:My reading comprehension is just fine, cabron.

What you can't seem to comprehend that Doan has been dragging his ass because he doesn't want to leave Phoenix period. If you want to run with the rumours, he's already turned down the big $$ - he's one of those rare players for whom the organization for which he plays is everything and he wants to win a Cup with the right team.

In my opinion, if he chooses to leave PHO for another team, you can bet the new jersey will be the one he retires in. What the hell is this "trade and then retire" crap? Do you really think that's the kind of player Doan is? Really?

Sundin didn't do it for TOR, Doan won't do it for your Vancouver Canucks. The writing is on the wall, Pauser.

Fool yourself into thinking otherwise if you want and keep making up your fantasy trade scenarios. I could care less and I'm done arguing why GM's shouldn't hand out $6.5M+ contracts to players over 35 that "may or may not" push their team over the top. If you can't see the folly in that, I have nothing more for you.

Suffice to say I'm glad you're not at the helm of this hockey team.
No, your reading comprehension needs work, quite clearly.

Let's say, at the end of year 3, Doan makes his intentions to retire known. We simply trade Doan to a team like Florida for a 7th round pick on July 1. Then, on August 1, Doan announces his retirement. The Canucks rid themselves of this cap hit, Doan doesn't even have to enter the state of Florida and announces his retirement, and Florida gets a cap hit on their books that they do not have to pay cash for. How is this crap? Do you not understand the value of these players to cap floor teams that don't even want to make it to the cap floor?
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by wienerdog »

The_Pauser wrote:
wienerdog wrote:My reading comprehension is just fine, cabron.

What you can't seem to comprehend that Doan has been dragging his ass because he doesn't want to leave Phoenix period. If you want to run with the rumours, he's already turned down the big $$ - he's one of those rare players for whom the organization for which he plays is everything and he wants to win a Cup with the right team.

In my opinion, if he chooses to leave PHO for another team, you can bet the new jersey will be the one he retires in. What the hell is this "trade and then retire" crap? Do you really think that's the kind of player Doan is? Really?

Sundin didn't do it for TOR, Doan won't do it for your Vancouver Canucks. The writing is on the wall, Pauser.

Fool yourself into thinking otherwise if you want and keep making up your fantasy trade scenarios. I could care less and I'm done arguing why GM's shouldn't hand out $6.5M+ contracts to players over 35 that "may or may not" push their team over the top. If you can't see the folly in that, I have nothing more for you.

Suffice to say I'm glad you're not at the helm of this hockey team.
No, your reading comprehension needs work, quite clearly.

Let's say, at the end of year 3, Doan makes his intentions to retire known. We simply trade Doan to a team like Florida for a 7th round pick on July 1. Then, on August 1, Doan announces his retirement. The Canucks rid themselves of this cap hit, Doan doesn't even have to enter the state of Florida and announces his retirement, and Florida gets a cap hit on their books that they do not have to pay cash for. How is this crap? Do you not understand the value of these players to cap floor teams that don't even want to make it to the cap floor?
Let's make this simple.

Are you expecting Doan to sign somewhere that doesn't give him an NTC or full NMC?
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Re: Shane Doan

Post by Potatoe1 »

The_Pauser wrote: Let's say, at the end of year 3, Doan makes his intentions to retire known. We simply trade Doan to a team like Florida for a 7th round pick on July 1. Then, on August 1, Doan announces his retirement. The Canucks rid themselves of this cap hit, Doan doesn't even have to enter the state of Florida and announces his retirement, and Florida gets a cap hit on their books that they do not have to pay cash for. How is this crap? Do you not understand the value of these players to cap floor teams that don't even want to make it to the cap floor?

Why Would a guy due 6.5 retire?

If he has a full NMC and he's getting that kind of money he isnt going to to retire.

If you go 4-years on Doan you want to pay him as much as possible in the first 2-3 years so that you can flip him year 4. Not sure on the rules but if you can bring his real salary down to the 2-3 mill range then there is a chance he might retire if he sucks balls at 40 (which he almost certainly will)
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