Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby Lancer » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:53 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:But for what its worth I would believe it! No, I haven't been told this but I really really would believe this to be true. Hodgson is not the first young kid to be in Canuck dog house for one reason or another. For a young player you have to wonder and the pressure on the kid to come home and perform would be tremendous. In Edmonton he can score a ton and be a -100 and still be loved, here he would be benched after a mistake.


You have to wonder at the effect certain instances create such the whole Hodgson saga. Just what gets said at places like Gary Roberts' fitness camp? What gets said about organizations by agents who represent players who play for Vancouver? How much of it is headline-reading, how much is grapevine shit among the player/agent community and how much of all that is true?

Outside of the whole Hodgson saga and the Goc trade, I can't think off the top of my head of any instance that would paint the Canuck organization as a bad bunch to play for. Most cases I remember, when players left the club as FAs Gillis and Co. were up front about what they were prepared to offer and another organization made a better offer. Even Rome said afterwards that his time with Vancouver allowed him to have the payday he had today. I don't think that this is an organization with a bad rep among the players - young or old. If somebody has evidence otherwise, lay it on here.

As for the whole AV-and-the-young-players thing. Remember that Tanev has burgeoned in his time with Vancouver. So have guys like Hansen. I think the irritant is that AV likes his youngsters to play a safe style of game as opposed to taking risks. Works well for depth players, but I don't think players like Schultz would sit well with it. Thing is, this is what you run into when the window for championship is finite and the tolerance for fuck-uppery on the ice is low. Who knows how long a leash AV and Bones would have if the team was demographically positioned to be approaching contention instead of where they're at now?

I think with Schultz is he wanted to be able to do his thing with top-4 minutes and got sold the whole 'boys on the bus' spiel by Gretz and Coffey. Good luck kiddo, until the Coilers get a credible goaltender. We'll see how long his love-affair lasts.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby Strangelove » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:03 pm

Lancer wrote:You have to wonder at the effect certain instances create such the whole Hodgson saga. Just what gets said at places like Gary Roberts' fitness camp? What gets said about organizations by agents who represent players who play for Vancouver? How much of it is headline-reading, how much is grapevine shit among the player/agent community and how much of all that is true?

Outside of the whole Hodgson saga and the Goc trade, I can't think off the top of my head of any instance that would paint the Canuck organization as a bad bunch to play for. Most cases I remember, when players left the club as FAs Gillis and Co. were up front about what they were prepared to offer and another organization made a better offer. Even Rome said afterwards that his time with Vancouver allowed him to have the payday he had today. I don't think that this is an organization with a bad rep among the players - young or old. If somebody has evidence otherwise, lay it on here.

As for the whole AV-and-the-young-players thing. Remember that Tanev has burgeoned in his time with Vancouver. So have guys like Hansen. I think the irritant is that AV likes his youngsters to play a safe style of game as opposed to taking risks. Works well for depth players, but I don't think players like Schultz would sit well with it. Thing is, this is what you run into when the window for championship is finite and the tolerance for fuck-uppery on the ice is low. Who knows how long a leash AV and Bones would have if the team was demographically positioned to be approaching contention instead of where they're at now?

I think with Schultz is he wanted to be able to do his thing with top-4 minutes and got sold the whole 'boys on the bus' spiel by Gretz and Coffey. Good luck kiddo, until the Coilers get a credible goaltender. We'll see how long his love-affair lasts.


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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby CaptainTrev » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:12 pm

Lancer wrote:Outside of the whole Hodgson saga and the Goc trade, I can't think off the top of my head of any instance that would paint the Canuck organization as a bad bunch to play for. Most cases I remember, when players left the club as FAs Gillis and Co. were up front about what they were prepared to offer and another organization made a better offer. Even Rome said afterwards that his time with Vancouver allowed him to have the payday he had today. I don't think that this is an organization with a bad rep among the players - young or old. If somebody has evidence otherwise, lay it on here.


Do you mean Sturm? Or is my memory failing me?
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby surreal78 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:21 pm

CaptainTrev wrote:
Lancer wrote:Outside of the whole Hodgson saga and the Goc trade, I can't think off the top of my head of any instance that would paint the Canuck organization as a bad bunch to play for. Most cases I remember, when players left the club as FAs Gillis and Co. were up front about what they were prepared to offer and another organization made a better offer. Even Rome said afterwards that his time with Vancouver allowed him to have the payday he had today. I don't think that this is an organization with a bad rep among the players - young or old. If somebody has evidence otherwise, lay it on here.


Do you mean Sturm? Or is my memory failing me?


Sturm was a UFA, so maybe he meant Ehrhoff, or another Deutschlander yet to be named. Don't remember anything involving Goc and Van?
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby SKYO » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:22 pm

Lancer wrote:As for the whole AV-and-the-young-players thing. Remember that Tanev has burgeoned in his time with Vancouver. So have guys like Hansen. I think the irritant is that AV likes his youngsters to play a safe style of game as opposed to taking risks.

Works well for depth players
, but I don't think players like Schultz would sit well with it. Thing is, this is what you run into when the window for championship is finite and the tolerance for fuck-uppery on the ice is low. Who knows how long a leash AV and Bones would have if the team was demographically positioned to be approaching contention instead of where they're at now?


100% agree, AV's philosophy works really well for youngsters who are depth players, who don't really have that UBER high expectation to perform offensively.

It's just the high scoring rookies AV will have a problem with as he wants every single player to be two way performers.

The Sedins were lucky in that they got some leeway/slack with Crawford and learned the ropes before the 'everyone has to be a two way performer like Kesler' AV came aboard. Or else the twins would probably be AHL fodder under Vigneault's empire regime.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby FAN » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:48 pm

SKYO wrote:The Sedins were lucky in that they got some leeway/slack with Crawford and learned the ropes before the 'everyone has to be a two way performer like Kesler' AV came aboard. Or else the twins would probably be AHL fodder under Vigneault's empire regime.

I wouldn't make that conclusion. The Sedins were pretty good defensively to begin with. Henrik, being a center especially, was better than average defensively and his willingness to backcheck would have endeared him to AV IMO.

Crawford was actually pretty hard on rookies who couldn't play defense. Defensively-responsible guys like Chubarov and Kesler got a lot of playing time under AV but the one-way players got benched pretty quickly.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby ESQ » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:05 pm

People are kinda freaking out over Schultz, but let's bear in mind that this is the first time a sought-after free agent has "chosen" Edmonton in a loooong time. Even Pronger was traded before he signed a five-year deal (and playing only one before demanding a trade). The only other big free-agent that I can think of was Souray...and if you want to talk about building a negative reputation with players and agents, look no further.

I can't imagine the Hodgson drama hurting the Canucks' reputation, the kid got pumped up with good ice-time, and traded to a decent team that's closer to home and will give him the opportunity to be a first- or second-line center. The back-handed jabs Gillis threw at him and his dad on the way out may be, but from HW told us that wasn't a secret amongst players anyways.

As for Sturm, I think its hard for any player to be too upset over being traded to Miami and 12 months of sunshine to recover from unending injuries.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:50 am

The other scenerio that could play out is Lu is traded for draft picks and prospects, bringing no salary in return.We're currently close to the limit...but this could free up the space to land a higher end UFA...and restock the prospect cupboard at the same time. We've got 5,921,667 in space but that doesn't count 5-6 spots that need to be finalized (ie Raymond etc). Without Lu on the books we could probably land a Doan.....without Ballard and Lu we'd be able to land a Suter or Parise. Huge price to pay for a 2nd goalie and no.5 blueliner.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby FAN » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:44 am

ClamRussel wrote:The other scenerio that could play out is Lu is traded for draft picks and prospects, bringing no salary in return.

Problem is that if it's a prospect, it has to be a prospect that is ready to step in now since Gillis has said he's not interested in trading for draft picks. I just want Gillis to get the best package possible and the team could really use a high-end prospect or first rounders.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby Diehard1 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:53 am

ClamRussel wrote:The other scenerio that could play out is Lu is traded for draft picks and prospects, bringing no salary in return.We're currently close to the limit...but this could free up the space to land a higher end UFA...and restock the prospect cupboard at the same time. We've got 5,921,667 in space but that doesn't count 5-6 spots that need to be finalized (ie Raymond etc). Without Lu on the books we could probably land a Doan.....without Ballard and Lu we'd be able to land a Suter or Parise. Huge price to pay for a 2nd goalie and no.5 blueliner.


Remember you can go over the limit in the summer. I fully expect Gillis to exhaust all of his cap space, and if he needs to jettison Ballard then that's what he'll do. Ballard at $4.2 million doesn't look too bad considering a guy like Bryan Allen is making very close to that.

Lu is also gone, though some salary will be coming back. It may be salary that is buried in the AHL though, and we don't know what Gillis is getting in return - perhaps he's already filling one of the holes on the roster with the return, and he may already have a structure of a deal in place but is still tinkering.

Doan is a Gillis type guy, my bet is there's already an offer that has been made and Gillis won't know if Doan leaves the desert for another week or so.

Don't worry about the cap, Gillis has always been able to fit in the players that he wants to fit in. Thank Gilman for that.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby Topper » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:32 am

Hockey Widow wrote:here he would be benched after a mistake.

and deservedly so.

AV gets a bad rap on this. He allows the youngsters to make a mistakes and expects them to learn from them, he does not allow repeat offenders to threepeat.

AV developed Kesler and Burrows in Manitoba before he came to Vancouver. Cody was treated more than fairly here. he was coddled for Christ sake. I argued before last season that he needed to earn his time from a defensive role on the 4th and 3rd line while most here wanted him on the 1st or 2nd line and qb'ing the PP. As I noted, such a scenario does nothing for his development. If Cody wants to whine at Robert's camp, I'm sure someone will find the mousy little turd a piece of cheese.

The development programs GMMG has put in place for the young players in the system is well known and rivals what private consultants like Roberts does.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby Lancer » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:08 am

surreal78 wrote:
CaptainTrev wrote:
Lancer wrote:Outside of the whole Hodgson saga and the Goc trade, I can't think off the top of my head of any instance that would paint the Canuck organization as a bad bunch to play for. Most cases I remember, when players left the club as FAs Gillis and Co. were up front about what they were prepared to offer and another organization made a better offer. Even Rome said afterwards that his time with Vancouver allowed him to have the payday he had today. I don't think that this is an organization with a bad rep among the players - young or old. If somebody has evidence otherwise, lay it on here.


Do you mean Sturm? Or is my memory failing me?


Sturm was a UFA, so maybe he meant Ehrhoff, or another Deutschlander yet to be named. Don't remember anything involving Goc and Van?


No, I meant Sturm. Got my Deutschers mixed up. :blush:
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby tantalum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:36 am

Gillis will use his cap space. He doesn't believe in being close to the cap...either you need to be well under the cap or at the cap. The reason being until you reach the cap you don't get the benefit of LTIR exemptions. A team merely close to the cap will very quickly use up that cap room with call ups during times of injury.
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby Boston Canucker » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:06 am

Topper wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:here he would be benched after a mistake.

and deservedly so.

AV gets a bad rap on this. He allows the youngsters to make a mistakes and expects them to learn from them, he does not allow repeat offenders to threepeat.

AV developed Kesler and Burrows in Manitoba before he came to Vancouver. Cody was treated more than fairly here. he was coddled for Christ sake. I argued before last season that he needed to earn his time from a defensive role on the 4th and 3rd line while most here wanted him on the 1st or 2nd line and qb'ing the PP. As I noted, such a scenario does nothing for his development. If Cody wants to whine at Robert's camp, I'm sure someone will find the mousy little turd a piece of cheese.

The development programs GMMG has put in place for the young players in the system is well known and rivals what private consultants like Roberts does.


I still don't like that we traded Hodgson (I recall with a smile sitting on a Boston bar, Jan 7, with my Kesler shirt on, surrounded by Bruins' chuckleheads, when Coho wired one top corner on Tim Teaparty...great moment!), but at the same time I don't really get Hodgson's complaints about the Canucks. Yes, there was the injury thing a few years back, but grow up already, and he was on a cup contender with a clear path to more playing time on the 2nd pp unit and 5 on 5 down the road as the Sedins got older. I'm still not even sure what to make of the whole Hodgson situation; in a sense, I'm not happy with either side, Gillis/AV and Coho/his dad. Here's hoping Kassian is the real deal. And it'll be interesting to see how Coho reacts to Buff grabbing two centers in round 1 this year.

Still, that was a great shot:
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Re: Patience: Gillis is doing the right thing.

Postby SKYO » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:32 am

FAN wrote:
SKYO wrote:The Sedins were lucky in that they got some leeway/slack with Crawford and learned the ropes before the 'everyone has to be a two way performer like Kesler' AV came aboard. Or else the twins would probably be AHL fodder under Vigneault's empire regime.

I wouldn't make that conclusion. The Sedins were pretty good defensively to begin with. Henrik, being a center especially, was better than average defensively and his willingness to backcheck would have endeared him to AV IMO.

Crawford was actually pretty hard on rookies who couldn't play defense. Defensively-responsible guys like Chubarov and Kesler got a lot of playing time under AV but the one-way players got benched pretty quickly.

I don't agree, the Sedins are actually one of the worst defensively on our team from the forward group, hence they never kill penalties and are only brought on when the penalty is about 10 seconds over so we can start to turn the tide, and this is when they are at their peaks, almost superstars.

Nothing can compare to Roberts training regime btw topper, MG can only dream of adding a hardcore trainer like that, nonetheless, nothing money can't buy at this point via a different trainer(s)

And Cody did earn his what limited ice time he got here! while putting up points with scrub 4th line wingers.
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