Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

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Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby Zamboni Driver » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:38 pm

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Canu ... story.html

I didn't know they could do this, but on the other hand now he's guaranteed at least a 1 yr $2.21 mil contract
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby mpp » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:46 am

YettaJoffrion wrote:It's a terrible decision.


How much would you be willing to pay for the services of, say, Jussi Jokinen, T.J. Oshie or Clarke MacArthur? Would $ 2.2m be adequate/overpayment/steal?

All these players are more or less similar to Raymond. Body stature, points, role on respective teams. Jokinen is the best known name in this group, obviously. He has scored 30 goals and had 60+ points once (coincidentally in 2009/2010, peaked right when Mason did) usually he scores less than 20 goals and 40-50 points, is defensively responsible, plays both PP and PK.

Heck, I'd love to have Jussi in Vancouver at 3 million, not just 2.2. Especially if you consider what Chris "Highest PDO in NHL last season" Kelly just got from Boston.

Back to Raymond: realistic expectation is 15-20 goals if he stays healthy. He's responsible defensively, can PK. Still relatively young. Would be given 3rd line duties. What's not to like if he gets ca. 2.2m per season, short term?

He had his ups and downs, sure. He also had that insignificant little injury last spring - one has to consider that. I too was frustrated with MayRay last season, but scapegoating makes fans blind. Not very probable to get a similar guy for similar money on the open market. And personally I'm not a fan of changes for the sake of changes.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby Meds » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:10 am

I'm not sure about all the rules of arbitration, but I have to wonder if this is a "force a contract and trade" play on the part of Gillis.

If he has another GM who is interested in Raymond, but doesn't want the hastle of having to negotiate with him AFTER trading for his him, then requesting arbitration to reduce his salary by 15% might make him a more appealing trade commodity.

Nashville is also looking to be more of an easy target for Gillis if he wants to pry the rights to Weber out of David Poile. The Predators have no first round pick this year, Ryan Suter has apparently said he is walking away and testing the UFA market, it's also looking like they might lose Radulov (RFA or KHL) and both Andrei (UFA) and Sergie (RFA) Kostitsyn. They blew their wad on Gaustad at the deadline, and now he is entering UFA. Tootoo has been a pretty big part of their energy line and he also hits the UFA market. Youngsters Colin Wilson and Anders Lindback are also RFA's come July 1st.

Poile lost Hamhuis for next to nothing in hopes he could negotiate with him at the end of the season a couple of years ago, he ended up with a 3rd round draft pick and Ryan Parent (who is now in Vancouver's system) in exchange for a $4M defenseman. He is now losing Ryan Suter, arguably one of the top 10 blueliners in the NHL, for absolutely nothing. He ridiculously low-balled Shea Weber last year, only to lose big time at arbitration, and now he stands to watch Weber walk for peanuts if Weber wants out. If that is the case then Poile needs to move him now rather than later because his value on the trade market will drop if he holds out until deadline day or the draft in 2013. The only teams that will want Weber at the deadline next year are teams that are about to make a push and know that Weber puts them over the top. However, Poile will want a good return on him at that point but that kind of return will take too big of a piece away from a would-be contender. Come draft day nobody is going to risk spending big on a guy who can do whatever he damned well wants 10 days later. Right now a team can get his rights and at least be guaranteed his services for one year.....and then hold out hope that said year is a good experience for Weber and makes him at least consider hanging around.

So.....

Would something to the tune of Edler, Raymond, and this year's 1st round pick, and maybe even throw Ryan Parent in there for kicks, be enough to secure Weber's rights from Nashville? I'm thinking it all depends on if Weber is set on playing in BC.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby FAN » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:17 am

Whoa... I posted a reply and then YettaJoffrion's post was gone and I couldn't post.

Anyhow, I suggested taking Raymond to arbitration in another thread and the concern was that it would only be a one year deal and the team would end up losing Raymond for nothing next year. The reality is that there was nothing stopping Raymond from simply accepting his qualifying offer and becoming UFA the next year or taking the team to arbitration. As it stands, there is nothing stopping Raymond from signing a longer-term contract whether Raymond was taken to arbitration or given a qualifying offer. Management wasn't in the best position to begin with and this is a calculated move that they spent time thinking about.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby CrzyCanuck » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:31 am

Wonder how much Raymond would fetch in the market should we set him free?

Perhaps MG and crew foresaw the chance of Raymond getting more than 2.5 in the market (I highly doubt it) so decided to file cut down arbitration, thus making Raymond at least a bit easier to deal? (I doubt it)

Think this is just all asset management. As some others have mentioned, MG does not like losing his asset for nothing.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:44 am

CrzyCanuck wrote:Perhaps MG and crew foresaw the chance of Raymond getting more than 2.5 in the market (I highly doubt it) so decided to file cut down arbitration, thus making Raymond at least a bit easier to deal? (I doubt it)

Think this is just all asset management. As some others have mentioned, MG does not like losing his asset for nothing.


I can't fathom a scenario where a GM would offer sheet Mason Raymond. A $2.5 offer sheet gives us a 2nd round pick. Not sure if that's valuable for the Canucks, but it gives us something back and clears Raymond from our books. Either way, doubtful an opposing GM thinks so highly of Raymond that he A) wouldn't offer MG a trade, and B) would throw a 2nd rounder around for a 10-goal, 20-point guy with some serious injury history.

I do think Gillis will trade Raymond as part of a package. We have too many tweeners, and not enough impact players.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby dbr » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:17 am

mpp wrote:
YettaJoffrion wrote:It's a terrible decision.


How much would you be willing to pay for the services of, say, Jussi Jokinen, T.J. Oshie or Clarke MacArthur? Would $ 2.2m be adequate/overpayment/steal?

All these players are more or less similar to Raymond. Body stature, points, role on respective teams.


Uhh, TJ Oshie would definitely fall into the "less similar to Raymond" category. He outweighs Raymond by 20-30 lbs despite being shorter, he can play physically even against much larger players, he gets first line ice time and he led his team in scoring this year.

His next contract will take him very much out of the Raymon/MacArthur/Jokinen pay grade, mostly because he is a significantly better player.

He had his ups and downs, sure. He also had that insignificant little injury last spring - one has to consider that. I too was frustrated with MayRay last season, but scapegoating makes fans blind. Not very probable to get a similar guy for similar money on the open market. And personally I'm not a fan of changes for the sake of changes.


I do agree but I think it is time for a change on this roster and Raymond is just about the most replaceable forward on the team (other than your Dale Wiese and Aaron Volpatti types). If the Canucks backup plan is to go into the season with Mason Raymond, Chris Higgins, Jannik Hansen and Zack Kassian all competing for one spot on the second line, two spots on the third and one spot on the fourth line that's okay I guess.

But my preference would be to bring in a player who is a clear upgrade, and Raymond is probably the least suited of that group to play further down the lineup in addition the in all likelihood being the most expensive option there.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:12 am

CrzyCanuck wrote:
Think this is just all asset management. As some others have mentioned, MG does not like losing his asset for nothing.


Asset management could also be utilized by cutting Raymond loose and spending the 2.5 million towards a player that isn't a useless piece of shit.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby BladesofSteel » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:13 am

Two words:

Asset Management.

When July 1st hits, UFA's in the similar mold to that Raymond will be going to the highest bidders, likely starting around $3.25++++. Would it not make sense to sign Mason to $1 mil less, and then move him to a team who missed out the frenzy?

There is always a price to pay for acquiring a player. If it via trade, then asset(s) need to be relinquished. If it through free agency, than cap space is sacrificed while also the potential to dole out NTC/NMC incentives. eg. Both Fleishmann and Upshall both managed to cash in on a healthy salary and NTC's in the contract... who???

The lower Mason's salary, the more cap space Gillis has to work with and/or the greater the trade value of his asset - as the silly season nears.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby the Dogsalmon » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:18 am

BladesofSteel wrote:Two words:

Asset Management.

When July 1st hits, UFA's in the similar mold to that Raymond will be going to the highest bidders, likely starting around $3.25++++. Would it not make sense to sign Mason to $1 mil less, and then move him to a team who missed out the frenzy?

There is always a price to pay for acquiring a player. If it via trade, then asset(s) need to be relinquished. If it through free agency, than cap space is sacrificed while also the potential to dole out NTC/NMC incentives. eg. Both Fleishmann and Upshall both managed to cash in on a healthy salary and NTC's in the contract... who???

The lower Mason's salary, the more cap space Gillis has to work with and/or the greater the trade value of his asset - as the silly season nears.



Asset management...a figure of speech that confirms you overpaid for a player you cannot trade...
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby Aaronp18 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:55 am

Because of how high the cap currently is, and where it may be heading, Raymond for $2-2.5M is pretty much par for the course.

He is an asset and there are definitely teams that would be more than willing to give him that kind of money on the open market. Gillis needs to get him under contract and if it's around what he makes now he is still a very tradeable asset.

He's coming off an injury plagued season. Don't forget he broke his thumb and had a shoulder injury before the playoffs.

He scored 25 goals a couple years ago. You don't simply walk away from an asset that can do that and has the potential to do it again with a healthy off season of training.

I think we let him play for the first few months and show that he can regain his form. then we decide if he fits long term. Hopefully he either shows he can make an impact or he increases his trade value.

Letting go of another NHL caliber forward knowing Kesler will be missing the beginning of the season isn't exactly smart.

This move is a no brainer IMO.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Keep in mind that, rumour has it, they tried very hard to deal Raymond at the trade deadline and there were no takers. None of the contending or playoff bound teams felt he could help them or provide depth. I doubt much has changed now except teams may have more cap room.

By filing for arbitration the Canucks are saying to Raymond we still want you but you have to earn your next contract. Come back from the back injury and show us you are worth a new deal. They are not throwing him away.

For his part he is pretty well hooped until the arbitrator makes his award. So maybe the Canucks win maybe his side wins but he like the Canucks are stuck with the deal whatever it is. By signing early he isn't yet eligible for a NTC or a NMC so he would be biting the bullet for one year and still worry about being traded. There is a minimum as to how low his salary can go in this process so I see no reason for him to sign before arbitration unless it is a multi year deal and I doubt the Canucks do longer than 2 years at below 2.5 cap hit. His best thing to do is wait for arbitration or ask for a trade.

But he is more tradable right now as the receiving teams knows the downside and knows they will have him for at least one season. He can't just walk July 1.

Not a perfect situation for either the Canucks or Raymond but one has to think he may be part of a Luongo package.
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Re: Canucks file for arbitrartion to cut Mason Raymond's pay

Postby Zamboni Driver » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:40 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Keep in mind that, rumour has it, they tried very hard to deal Raymond at the trade deadline and there were no takers. None of the contending or playoff bound teams felt he could help them or provide depth. I doubt much has changed now except teams may have more cap room.

By filing for arbitration the Canucks are saying to Raymond we still want you but you have to earn your next contract. Come back from the back injury and show us you are worth a new deal. They are not throwing him away.


Pretty much seems that way. Note that the agent didn't seem all bent out of shape, so the two parties may have agreed to kick it up to the arbitrator to decide, and then see how he does this season before negotiating the next deal.

Meds wrote:Would something to the tune of Edler, Raymond, and this year's 1st round pick, and maybe even throw Ryan Parent in there for kicks, be enough to secure Weber's rights from Nashville? I'm thinking it all depends on if Weber is set on playing in BC.


Given what Gillis said about valuing offfensive hockey, I can't see them trading Edler & a pick for just the rights to any player, not even Weber.
There is always the chance that someone will make him a crazy-stupid offer of $9 mil or whatever, and then do the Canucks match?
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