Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
Posts: 9115
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by SKYO » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:36 pm

Topper wrote: I find the shrill squeal of your pained twisting to pat yourself on the back very irritating.
lol poor SL with the thinly veiled brag.

But alas good call strangeluv. :thumbs:
A long time ago, a baseball player remarked: "If I owned a ballclub, I'd hire a $5,000 coach and a $15,000 scout."

User avatar
Strangelove
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 17017
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: Lake Vostok

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Strangelove » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:50 pm

ESQ wrote: Oooh, getting to double-quote SL!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
____
GO CANUCKS GO!!!

User avatar
Strangelove
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 17017
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: Lake Vostok

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Strangelove » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:52 pm

Topper wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Strangelove [color=#000080]on Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:43 pm[/color] wrote: Personally I think Lou's feelings were hurt by the decision to go with Schneids for the last 3 playoff games. I think he feels unwanted but is trying to remain classy about this. He KNOWS the time has come for one of he or Schneids to leave town (everyone knows this) and he feels the Canucks have already made their decision based on those 3 games. He's trying to graciously step out of Schneid's way.

If I'm GM of the Canucks I fire the entire coaching staff, reassure Lou that he's The Man, and deal Schneids.

But that's just me.
Just curious as to how many of you think this may have been a big part of why Lou wanted out.

Obviously they have finally: "fired the entire coaching staff, reassured Lou that he's The Man, and dealt Schneids."

But how many think this should have been done 14 months ago when the Great Strangelove suggested it?

And I DON'T wanna see anyone going "AWWWW did Wou's widdle feewings get hurt??" :evil:

True, Lou is not an asshole (graciously steps out of Schneid's way :roll: ) but hey you can't have everything....
I find the shrill squeal of your pained twisting to pat yourself on the back very irritating.
What can one say, the Great Strangelove loves the Great Strangelove.

And well he should....
____
GO CANUCKS GO!!!

User avatar
Art Vandelay
CC Veteran
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:56 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Art Vandelay » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:24 pm

RoyalDude wrote:And I fully expect Edmonton to end up with one of those top 6 players and with how the stars have been aligning for them lately, I expect them to walk out of the draft with one of the consensus top 4 in McKinnon, Jones, Barkov, Drouin.

LOL you are bipolar bro. The Oilers are a fucking trainwreck of a franchise. Stars have been aligning, now I've heard it all. :drink: Let me guess you got a magnum of Royal Red and some 7-11 chicken wings lined up for tonight.

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10495
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:21 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:25 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote: Detroit was the BEST drafting team from about 89 - 2006 bar none and it isn't even close.
Fred wrote: I'm not trying to make light of the players that Detroit picked up. Clearly great players. But the scouting has praise heaped upon it when IMO it shouldn't. Their selection of players chosen with high picks clearly shows their inability to make good choices. .
Blob Mckenzie wrote: Who gives a rats ass what round the players were taken in ? The fact of the matter is my point stands. Detroit was far and away the best drafting team from the late 80's until 5 years ago. They have drafted way more quality NHL players than any team during that time period.
Fred wrote: No Blob that's not the concept at all. The reason that by FAR the most players in the draft come form the first round is valid...I hope you're not suggesting other wise. You keep screwing up first round picks and guess what it doesn't look good on your resume and after all that's what we're debating here, this magical Detroit scouting machine.
Blob Mckenzie wrote:dbr provided a comprehensive list of players who were picked by the Wings in the first few rounds. They were still better at drafting than most if not all teams in the early rounds. When you add in all the gems from the later rounds they blow everybody away. Not sure why you have such a difficult time trying to wrap your head round this. I guess you hadn't noticed all the HOFers and the cups.
Fred wrote: Bobby that was when Jesus was a boy. TO has a great Stanley Cup record as well ....so they're good ??

Any way you're not going to see it through my eyes and I miss your point. Mexican stand off
Blob Mckenzie wrote: The fact you bring up TO and their cups in the 6 team league to this thread is fairly telling. I knew I smelled shit somewhere......looks like Fred is talking out of his ass again.
Yup.

Fred "what we're debating here" is the drafting record of the Wings from 1989 to 2006.

Blobby has been very clear on that and you have clearly disagreed.

I say the Wings have been at least average over that time frame in the 1st round

(considering their usual position in the bottom-half of the 1st round).

I say the Wings have been fantastic over that time frame in the 2nd round PERIOD.

And of course we all agree they have been 2nd-to-none over that time frame in the lower rounds.

Let's take a closer look, shall we?

Let's....
http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospe ... uccess.htm

Question: How Many NHL Draft Picks Make it to the NHL?

Over 200 players are selected at every NHL draft. How many of them go on to have NHL careers? What are the prospects for a player selected in the first round of the NHL Draft compared to later rounds?

Answer: To properly evaluate a draft, you need a few year's distance from it. So let's look at the 1990s.
To define whether a player "makes it," let's set the threshold at 200 NHL games. We'll call them "career players."

Between 1990 and 1999, there were 2,600 names called at the NHL Entry Draft.

As of 2007, 494 of those players have appeared in at least 200 NHL games. That's a success rate of 19 percent.

But of course, not all draft picks are created equal. The guys picked in the first round are a cut above the rest:

Success rate of first-round draft picks.

Based on the 1990s sample, a first-round draft pick has a 63 percent chance of being a career player.


Beyond the first round.

This is where the NHL dream begins to fade in a hurry:

From 1990 to 1999, about one-quarter of the players selected in the second round turned into NHL career players.

Those drafted in the third round and beyond are really up against it.

From over 2,000 players selected in the third round and beyond during 1990s, just 261 made it as NHL career players.

That's about 12 percent.
I'm going to go by the criteria above because I believe it is sound criteria indeed.

If you feel otherwise, please feel free to present your own criteria, but remember "we're debating" 1989 - 2006.

Moving right along...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Re ... raft_picks

1989 – 2006 First Round Picks:

1989 Mike Sillinger (11th) 1049 regular season games + 43 playoff games
1990 Keith Primeau (3rd) 909 + 128
1991 Martin Lapointe (19th) 991 + 108
1992 Curtis Bowen (22nd) 0 + 0
1993 Anders Eriksson (22nd) 572 + 36
1994 Yan Golubovsky (23rd) 56 + 0
1995 Maxim Kuznetsov (26th) 136 + 0
1996 Jesse Wallin (26th) 49 + 0
1997 NO FIRST ROUND PICK
1998 Jiri Fischer (25th) 305 + 38
1999 NO FIRST ROUND PICK
2000 Niklas Kronwall (29th) 467 + 79 *still playing
2001 NO FIRST ROUND PICK
2002 NO FIRST ROUND PICK
2003 NO FIRST ROUND PICK
2004 NO FIRST ROUND PICK
2005 Jakub Kindl (19th) 106 + 0 *still playing
2006 NO FIRST ROUND PICK

If young Kindl does reach the 200 game threshold:

7 career NHLers out of 11 = 64% of Wing 1st round picks equate to “career players”.

If young Kindl does NOT reach the 200 game threshold:

6 career NHLers out of 11 = 55% of Wing 1st round picks equate to “career players”.

Compare those numbers with “63% chance of a 1st round pick becoming a career player”

… and consider the fact they accomplished this despite mostly LATE 1st round picks.

Now consider the fact almost all of the guys who made it were work horses.

I mean LOOK at those guys!

That's pretty solid 1st-round drafting...


1989 – 2006 Second Round Picks:

1989 Bob Boughner (32nd) 630 + 65
1990 NO SECOND ROUND PICK
1991 Jamie Pushor (32nd) 521 + 14
1992 Darren McCarty (46th) 758 + 174
1993 John Coleman (48th) 0 + )
1994 Mathieu Dandenault (49th) 868 + 83
1995 Philippe Audette (52nd) 4 + 0
1996 Aren Miller (52nd) 0 + 0
1997 Yuri Butsayev (49th) 99 + 0
1998 Ryan Barnes (55th) 2 + 0
1998 Tomas Valtanen (56th) 0 + 0
1999 NO SECOND ROUND PICK
2000 Tomas Kopecky (38th) 418 + 37
2001 Igor Grigorenko (62nd) 0 + 0
2002 Jiri Hudler (58th) 409 + 60 *still playing
2002 Tomas Fleischmann (63rd) 387 + 29 *still playing
2003 Jimmy Howard (64th) 192 + 28 *still playing
2004 NO SECOND ROUND PICK
2005 Justin Abdelkader (42nd) 208 + 37
2006 Cory Emmerton (41st) 73 + 5 *still playing
2006 Shawn Matthias (47th) 205 + 7 *still playing
2006 Dick Axelsson (62nd) 0 + 0

I think it’s fair to assume young Emmerton will reach the 200 game threshold.

11 career NHLers out of 19 = 58% of Wing 2nd round picks equate to “career players”

…. FAR exceeding the average of 25%.

If you choose to believe Emmerton will NOT reach the 200 game threshold Wings are still at 53% = stellar!

It all adds up to this:

The Red Wings have done a solid job of drafting in the 1st round, given position, in Blob’s stated timeframe.

The Red Wings have done a fantastic job of drafting in the 2nd round in Blob’s stated timeframe.

And of course we all agree the Wings have been lights-out beyond the 2nd round in Blob’s stated timeframe.

Speaking of lights-out Fred.... thanks for coming out. :mex:
LOL ! I just read this now. That's some damn good detective work for a doctor. Lights out is about right. :lol:
Lol
TRY TO FOCUS ON HOW MY ASS TASTES IN ONE YEAR

ESQ
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1663
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by ESQ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:28 am

Lol okay blob, pulling out a 5-year old post, which looks at draft picks from 32-12 years ago.

Especially hilarious that Emmerton is brought up as "fair to assume will reach the 200 game threshold", since I'm pretty sure he hasn't played in the NHL since that post! :lol:

But thanks for resuscitating this thread, its the longest thread I've ever created on this board :oops:

By the way, would you say Holland's drafting has been "lights out" after the 2nd round for the past 12 years?

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10495
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:35 am

Give me time to respond. Just got busy here...

I liked bumping it for Docs funny post. Apparently Fred sent him a scathing pm about that

We will leave the Holland shit here instead of the Around the league thread
TRY TO FOCUS ON HOW MY ASS TASTES IN ONE YEAR

User avatar
Reefer2
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3682
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:47 am

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Reefer2 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:56 am

Holy hell in a hand basket, Did Strange and Blob agree on something?

Did I read that right?

ESQ
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1663
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by ESQ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:37 pm

Blob, here's my take on Holland:

Detroit won 3 cups with Scotty Bowman's team. Pre salary cap, they were a UFA powerhouse.

Post-salary cap is when Holland put his stamp on the team. He fluked out with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. But he was also significantly aided by the decades-ago draft picks of Captain Yzerman in 2002, and Captain Lidstrom.

The fact that Zetterberg and Datsyuk were flukes is, in essence, irrelevant, because they were drafted by Holland, and they turned into superstars.

But I would argue since those late-90s picks, Holland has managed to draft a single 1st line forward (Larkin), and 3 top-6 forwardsv(+Nyquist and Franzen) total over the past 18 drafts.

I appreciate that doc was looking at a window of drafts to argue that Holland was a good drafter. However, his lack of success over the past 10 years imo supports the view that he was not good, and his reputation was greatly aided by being "lights-out" in the later rounds.

I'll offer this as evidence of my argument - if he was a good drafter, the Wings would be in a better position today, and not facing a 5+ year rebuild. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that the Wings are further along than the Canucks, and they have 3 years of 1st round exits and one playoff series win in be past 5 years to show for it.

Compare the Wings to the Sharks. They had a similarly-aged core in Jumbo and Marleau. The sharks have been able to continuously add youth, and are now looking at a seamless transition. Wilson has pulled it off with one top-10 pick in the last decade.

That, to me, is the measure of a great GM. Holland is in an adverse situation now with an old core, however he is responsible for creating this adversity, and has had 15 years to prepare for it.

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10495
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:22 pm

I don’t buy “fluking out”. They are either your picks or they aren’t. We hear the same nonsense about the “standard number of picks” ad nauseam in this forum. The Wings have drafted a shitload of decent NHL players from 06-16. Likely more than the Canucks and likely mid pack.

I’ll do the research later but I don’t think Holland is the drooling mongoloid at the draft table you’re making him out to be.

Sorry got lacrosse practice to get to 8-)

Off the top of my head Detroit drafted an equal version of Erik Gudbranson in 07 at pick 27. You know ....the guy this board drools over like the second coming of Scott Stevens
TRY TO FOCUS ON HOW MY ASS TASTES IN ONE YEAR

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10495
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:35 pm

Since Doc and I already proved Detroit’s drafting was stellar till 06, we’ll focus on the ten years from 07-16.

Top 6 forwards/top 4 d

Tatar
Nyquist
Larkin
Mantha

Depth guys - bottom six forwards/bottom pairing D

Anasasthiou- could easily develop into a top 6 guy at 24
Bertuzzi - see above
Jarnkrok- on a deep team but a quality player and likely a top 6 on half the teams
Janmark-Nylen- solid young player, likely a top 6 guy on some teams.
Smith- easily equal to a guy this board jizzes over in Gudbranson
Mrazek- struggled in a brief showing in Philly, but overall had been a competent 1a/1b goalie.

Svechnikov May yet develop into a good player. He’s 21


Rasmussen looks decent. The pundits have said Detroit killed the last draft. I don’t think that Holland is the dribbling mess that you think he is.
TRY TO FOCUS ON HOW MY ASS TASTES IN ONE YEAR

ESQ
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1663
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by ESQ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:13 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:35 pm
Since Doc and I already proved Detroit’s drafting was stellar till 06, we’ll focus on the ten years from 07-16.

Top 6 forwards/top 4 d

Tatar
Nyquist
Larkin
Mantha

Depth guys - bottom six forwards/bottom pairing D

Anasasthiou- could easily develop into a top 6 guy at 24
Bertuzzi - see above
Jarnkrok- on a deep team but a quality player and likely a top 6 on half the teams
Janmark-Nylen- solid young player, likely a top 6 guy on some teams.
Smith- easily equal to a guy this board jizzes over in Gudbranson
Mrazek- struggled in a brief showing in Philly, but overall had been a competent 1a/1b goalie.

Svechnikov May yet develop into a good player. He’s 21


Rasmussen looks decent. The pundits have said Detroit killed the last draft. I don’t think that Holland is the dribbling mess that you think he is.
You've got 10 Detroit players listed, from the past 10 drafts. I would say you 're being pretty generous in your assessments of those players.

I don't think that's any better than the Canucks' output over those 10 years, which puts both of them at the bottom of the pack.

Since the Detroit decline started at close to the same time as the Canucks, who do you think will be back in the playoffs first?

User avatar
Per
CC Legend
Posts: 3512
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:45 am

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Per » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:01 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:21 am
Strangelove wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Strangelove wrote: 1989 Bob Boughner (32nd) 630 + 65
Is that pronounced Buff-ner, Bow-ner or Bo-ner? :eh:
Whatever you do, always give 100 %!
Except when donating blood.

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10495
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:42 am

ESQ wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:13 pm
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:35 pm
Since Doc and I already proved Detroit’s drafting was stellar till 06, we’ll focus on the ten years from 07-16.

Top 6 forwards/top 4 d

Tatar
Nyquist
Larkin
Mantha

Depth guys - bottom six forwards/bottom pairing D

Anasasthiou- could easily develop into a top 6 guy at 24
Bertuzzi - see above
Jarnkrok- on a deep team but a quality player and likely a top 6 on half the teams
Janmark-Nylen- solid young player, likely a top 6 guy on some teams.
Smith- easily equal to a guy this board jizzes over in Gudbranson
Mrazek- struggled in a brief showing in Philly, but overall had been a competent 1a/1b goalie.

Svechnikov May yet develop into a good player. He’s 21


Rasmussen looks decent. The pundits have said Detroit killed the last draft. I don’t think that Holland is the dribbling mess that you think he is.
You've got 10 Detroit players listed, from the past 10 drafts. I would say you 're being pretty generous in your assessments of those players.

I don't think that's any better than the Canucks' output over those 10 years, which puts both of them at the bottom of the pack.

Since the Detroit decline started at close to the same time as the Canucks, who do you think will be back in the playoffs first?
Svenchnikov makes it 11. He will play in the league.

For Vancouver

Horvat- top 6
Boeser - top 6


Virtanen-bottom 6
McCann- bottom 6

Connauton-bottom pairing
Hutton-depth guy
Forsling- lump him in with Svechnikov

Definitely below Detroit for output.

You want to use Schroeder and Gaunce. Detroit has a few more guys who have made the impact these guys have.

I’d say I’m being equally if not more generous in my assessments of Vancouver picks
TRY TO FOCUS ON HOW MY ASS TASTES IN ONE YEAR

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10495
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:47 am

As for playoffs I think that both teams stink but Detroit plays in an easier conference
TRY TO FOCUS ON HOW MY ASS TASTES IN ONE YEAR

Post Reply