Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:53 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say.

You are probably the type of guy who buys an $80 strip loin at costco, marinates it with garlic flakes in a jar and parkay, cooks it on a George Foreman grill and wonders why it tastes like a catchers mitt. But hey you bought the steak right.... :lol:


Wow did that ever just kill me Blob. :rofl:
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:14 pm

Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.


He's had 5 drafts. Let's look at them.

In 2008 he took Cody Hodgson 10th overall. This means he passed on Jordan Eberle, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, and Henrik Karlsson. Beyond those names there have been no real names that Gillis should have taken. There have been no diamonds that have come up out of the later rounds either.....Justin Shultz may become one, but I don't think I would have taken him over Hodgson at that point, and he was gone before Gillis drafted again. Eberle, Myers, or Karlsson, would have been better picks.....not sure on Ennis.

In 2009 he took Jordan Schroeder at 22nd overall. Nothing stands out in that draft where he missed the boat. Nobody has really blown anyone out of the water with a later round pick from that year either.

In 2010, and I could be mistaken, but I don't think the Canucks even had a draft pick until the 4th round. Again, nothing here that is looking like it was a missed gem.

In 2011 he took Niklas Jensen at 29th overall. Jensen looks to be a decent prospect in the making. Time will tell. Nobody behind him looks like they would have been a better option. And here again we see nobody coming out of nowhere in the later rounds.

In 2012 he took Brendan Gaunce 26th overall. Nobody behind Gaunce that looks to have been a more savvy selection.

Man Gillis just SUCKS at drafting. 5 years in a row with only one pick in the top 20 and he has nothing to show for it. No Datsyuk or Zetterberg, not even a Franzen. 5 years and only 3 players he passed on that would have been a better pick.....and all of them in the same year. Dammit anyways.


Erixon, Johannson, Palmieri, Ashton and Despres are players taken in the first round after Shroeder and are considered better prospects.

The big miss was Ryan O'Reilly who went early in the 2nd round, not to far after was Kyle Clifford. Drew Shore and Stefan Elliott are probably better prospects than Schroeder.

Marcus Foligno went in the 4th round. Brayden McNabb in the 3rd.

Gillis simply does not strike gold later in the draft. He sucks massive.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:19 pm

Meds wrote:Of those 3 guys only Franzen was drafted under Ken Holland's tenure as GM.


Then why didn't I see his name in your rebuttal?

Dude, Gillis could do us all a massive favor around here and start finding some good players later in the draft like your good buddy Holland did with Franzen, Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Trust me, there ain't nothing in our system whom Gillis drafted whom will match the NHL success of those 3 said players. Forgetabout. Whom you thinking in our system will end up being as good as the 3? Schroeder? Rodin? Jensen? Gaunce? Kassian? LMAO!!!!
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:33 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Meds wrote:Of those 3 guys only Franzen was drafted under Ken Holland's tenure as GM.


Then why didn't I see his name in your rebuttal?

Dude, Gillis could do us all a massive favor around here and start finding some good players later in the draft like your good buddy Holland did with Franzen, Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Trust me, there ain't nothing in our system whom Gillis drafted whom will match the NHL success of those 3 said players. Forgetabout. Whom you thinking in our system will end up being as good as the 3? Schroeder? Rodin? Jensen? Gaunce? Kassian? LMAO!!!!


Just an oversight on my part.

I doubt the Red Wings even expected those 3 players to be as successful as they have been. If they did then they wouldn't have passed them over so many times for so many duds. I doubt any GM is going to pick 3 guys in the 4th round, or later, that will turn out like they have.

Your arguments against GMMG are so full of holes man. And you forecast other prospects based on what the writers at HF say. The truth is, even Detroit didn't know what they had in Datsyuk and Zetterberg when they drafted them. Nobody did. The same rings true for most players picked after the second round. Detroit got lucky, it's like the guy who hits the inside straight flush on the river a couple of times, you don't expect his opponents to duplicate it, and you don't think they are terrible poker players when they don't hit the same lucky card. Because it is pure chance. You're entitled to your opinion about Gillis, doesn't mean your right. So quit trying to make up for the fact that you've stuck your neck way out on something and you can't back it up.

Btw, Burke's boy, Nonis, passed on Claude Giroux in 2006.....I haven't heard you say shit about that.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Meds » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:38 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.


He's had 5 drafts. Let's look at them.

In 2008 he took Cody Hodgson 10th overall. This means he passed on Jordan Eberle, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, and Henrik Karlsson. Beyond those names there have been no real names that Gillis should have taken. There have been no diamonds that have come up out of the later rounds either.....Justin Shultz may become one, but I don't think I would have taken him over Hodgson at that point, and he was gone before Gillis drafted again. Eberle, Myers, or Karlsson, would have been better picks.....not sure on Ennis.

In 2009 he took Jordan Schroeder at 22nd overall. Nothing stands out in that draft where he missed the boat. Nobody has really blown anyone out of the water with a later round pick from that year either.

In 2010, and I could be mistaken, but I don't think the Canucks even had a draft pick until the 4th round. Again, nothing here that is looking like it was a missed gem.

In 2011 he took Niklas Jensen at 29th overall. Jensen looks to be a decent prospect in the making. Time will tell. Nobody behind him looks like they would have been a better option. And here again we see nobody coming out of nowhere in the later rounds.

In 2012 he took Brendan Gaunce 26th overall. Nobody behind Gaunce that looks to have been a more savvy selection.

Man Gillis just SUCKS at drafting. 5 years in a row with only one pick in the top 20 and he has nothing to show for it. No Datsyuk or Zetterberg, not even a Franzen. 5 years and only 3 players he passed on that would have been a better pick.....and all of them in the same year. Dammit anyways.


Erixon, Johannson, Palmieri, Ashton and Despres are players taken in the first round after Shroeder and are considered better prospects.

The big miss was Ryan O'Reilly who went early in the 2nd round, not to far after was Kyle Clifford. Drew Shore and Stefan Elliott are probably better prospects than Schroeder.

Marcus Foligno went in the 4th round. Brayden McNabb in the 3rd.

Gillis simply does not strike gold later in the draft. He sucks massive.


Better prospects according to who? Hockey's Future? :roll:

Is that Ryan Johannson? If so, apart from Clifford none of those guys are exactly well known names. And none of them at all has done shit at the NHL level. They may never.

The other thing you overlook, or simply ignore, is that most GMs don't have the time to actually scout players in depth themselves. They rely on a scouting team and have to base their picks off of what their scouts tell them. This rings true for every GM in the league. Your just a bitter armchair GM.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby dbr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:49 am

Sigh.

RoyalDude, seriously.. we all know what you think by now.

In this stage of this thread you are pissing and moaning about how the Canucks first round pick three years ago (ie. he turned 22 six weeks ago.. for a player not selected at the top of the draft it's extremely early to be closing the book) has fared next to eight guys selected out of the following 22 picks.

Who knows where Jordan Schroeder is going to end up, I don't know if he's a good pick or not but what was known in 2009 is that he was probably in the top five in his draft class in terms of on ice skill - I thought you liked skilled hockey players Dude?

Anyway it's foolish to argue pretty much anything about Gillis' drafting thusfar, he has tied one hand behind his back (traded away a full draft worth of picks during his five years) and there's been far too little time to tell much of anything about project players like Connauton, Rodin, Schroeder, etc. It's extremely rare for players to be selected outside of the very top of the draft and immediately succeed at the NHL level, and what we can tell so far is that for Mike Gillis finding those players is either not a priority or not a strong suit.

What we don't know yet is whether he is capable of producing a couple of legit NHLers out of each draft.

Maybe four years from now Jordan Schroeder is producing at the NHL level, Kevin Connauton is a regular and Joe Cannata is looking like another Cory Schneider (that'd make 2009 look like a pretty successful draft), maybe they all bust. We just don't know.

Of course, don't let that get in the way of your constant complaining - I guess it's more fun for you to leap to conclusions than it is to just wait and express your constant, grinding, it-must-be-so-fucking-awful-to-experience-life-through-your-eyes pessimism in a more reasonable manner.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby dbr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:52 am

Meds wrote:The other thing you overlook, or simply ignore, is that most GMs don't have the time to actually scout players in depth themselves. They rely on a scouting team and have to base their picks off of what their scouts tell them. This rings true for every GM in the league.


This is no excuse though, every GM is ultimately responsible for the decisions made at the draft whether he personally watched the players or not. A GM can pin the blame on his scouts but if he claims that's a problem and fails to address it then he's just as culpable as if he'd done the scouting himself.

Say what you will about Ron Delorme (and most Canucks fans have and will continue to), but Mike Gillis had a chance to clean house in his amateur scouting department and hasn't, really.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:18 am

Meds wrote:
Better prospects according to who? Hockey's Future? :roll:

Is that Ryan Johannson? If so, apart from Clifford none of those guys are exactly well known names. And none of them at all has done shit at the NHL level. They may never.

The other thing you overlook, or simply ignore, is that most GMs don't have the time to actually scout players in depth themselves. They rely on a scouting team and have to base their picks off of what their scouts tell them. This rings true for every GM in the league. Your just a bitter armchair GM.


There is no point in arguing with someone who doesn't know who Marcus Johansson and Ryan O'Reilly is. But hey, Go Schroeder Go!

And BTW, Despres would be our best defensive prospect in our system. But not surprised you never heard of him either.

I'm just curious as to why Gillis has been unable to find any steals outside of the first round like the Bruins have in Bergeron and Lucic, both 2nd rounders and Krecji and Marchand both 3rd rounders. Key players to the Bruins Stanley Cup win. Not one prospect of his has that potential, and pulllleasse do not mention Rodin, Connauton blah, blah, blah....

In Nonis 3 short years he drafted Raymond, Edler and Hansen outside the first round! Shit, I don't even see any of Gillis late round picks having that potential. Forgetaboutit.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby dbr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:59 am

RoyalDude wrote:I'm just curious as to why Gillis has been unable to find any steals outside of the first round like the Bruins have in Bergeron and Lucic, both 2nd rounders and Krecji and Marchand both 3rd rounders. Key players to the Bruins Stanley Cup win. Not one prospect of his has that potential, and pulllleasse do not mention Rodin, Connauton blah, blah, blah....


Yawn. So Gillis doesn't stack up against four very impressive draft picks across four years by one of the league's best run organizations, you're really going out on a limb there Dude.

Bergeron was a great pick out of one of the best draft classes ever (but I could complain about him the same way you do about others.. what the fuck were the Bruins thinking passing on Shea Weber?), it's beyond unrealistic to expect that even occasionally from any organization.

Lucic I think we are all pissed about. His size allowed him to break into the league almost right away but it was two seasons after the 2006 draft before he produced like a good third liner and four before he produced like a second or first liner. The Canucks didn't have a second (or first, or third) in the draft of players that would currently be where Lucic was at in that third season, and overall in Gillis' tenure have just Hodgson/Sauve who are in comparable positions to Lucic in that fifth season.

Krejci and Marchand don't compare because they each took years (three for Krejci, four for Marchand) to break into the league after they were drafted. The Canucks only really have one forward drafted in a similar spot in Anton Rodin and he's had injury problems that have held up his development... all the rest of their selections have been too recent to judge or too late in the draft to fairly compare.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Island Nucklehead » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:27 am

Gillis' draft picks have more NHL GP than Holland's, since Gillis was hired.

Boston has had 99 NHL games played from their 2008 and on draft picks (Vancouver 76). 74 of them by 2nd Overall Tyler Seguin.

If you look at the Maple Leafs, they have 230 games played over that period. 212 of them by Luke Schenn. Same number of 2008 and on draft choices that suited up in NHL games as the Canucks (2). One of the youngest, and worst teams in the league over the past couple seasons, and their draft choices haven't cracked the roster.

Gillis doesn't appear to be any better or worse than these other guys. As others have said it's too soon to tell. Going back and saying Chiarelli and Holland found gems over a much larger sample and development period doesn't tell us anything about Gillis.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Fred » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:43 pm

This will keep a few busy be they MG doubter or admirers


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showt ... p?t=577075
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Tciso » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:47 pm

Meds wrote:Now let's look at the players on the Canucks roster that have been drafted and developed by this team (comparing systems here, not GM's).



Dont' forget Luc Bourdon (r.i.p.). Another great talent the team drafted, and was slotted in as a future top 4 or better D-man.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby Tciso » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:58 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Dude, Gillis could do us all a massive favor around here and start finding some good players later in the draft like your good buddy Holland did with Franzen, Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Trust me, there ain't nothing in our system whom Gillis drafted whom will match the NHL success of those 3 said players. Forgetabout. Whom you thinking in our system will end up being as good as the 3? Schroeder? Rodin? Jensen? Gaunce? Kassian? LMAO!!!!


If we are looking at GMs finding talent, you cannot overlook Eddie Lack. GMMG was the guy who signed him in 2010 as a free agent. And, while goalies take a long time to mature, he may easily be as good as any of the 3 mentioned above.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:32 pm

Tciso wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Dude, Gillis could do us all a massive favor around here and start finding some good players later in the draft like your good buddy Holland did with Franzen, Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Trust me, there ain't nothing in our system whom Gillis drafted whom will match the NHL success of those 3 said players. Forgetabout. Whom you thinking in our system will end up being as good as the 3? Schroeder? Rodin? Jensen? Gaunce? Kassian? LMAO!!!!


If we are looking at GMs finding talent, you cannot overlook Eddie Lack. GMMG was the guy who signed him in 2010 as a free agent. And, while goalies take a long time to mature, he may easily be as good as any of the 3 mentioned above.


Shite, were you sauced when you posted this? Must've.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Postby RoyalDude » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:34 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:Gillis' draft picks have more NHL GP than Holland's, since Gillis was hired.

Boston has had 99 NHL games played from their 2008 and on draft picks (Vancouver 76). 74 of them by 2nd Overall Tyler Seguin.

If you look at the Maple Leafs, they have 230 games played over that period. 212 of them by Luke Schenn. Same number of 2008 and on draft choices that suited up in NHL games as the Canucks (2). One of the youngest, and worst teams in the league over the past couple seasons, and their draft choices haven't cracked the roster.

Gillis doesn't appear to be any better or worse than these other guys. As others have said it's too soon to tell. Going back and saying Chiarelli and Holland found gems over a much larger sample and development period doesn't tell us anything about Gillis.


What kind of convoluted bull crap stat is this?
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