Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:49 pm

Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:But if you look at teams like the Red Wings and Bruins you can still find great players later in the draft and combine that with smart trades you can still win the cup.
Red Wings: The argument has been made before, and it's a good one, that the Wings lucked out when it came to their drafting. Let's have a look at players on Detroit's roster that were drafted by them and have played with them exclusively.

Justin Abdelkader. 2nd round in 2005. Didn't crack the lineup as a regular until 2009-10. Is a depth forward.

Pavel Datsyuk. 6th round in 1998. Did not become a true scoring forward until 2002-03. Now an elite player.

Valtteri Filppula. 3rd round of 2002. Breakout season was 2011-12. Until then he was a 3rd line skater.

Darren Helm. 5th round of 2005. Became a 30 point player in 2010-11.

Henrik Zetterberg. 6th round of 1999. Breakout season in 2005-06.

Jonathan Ericsson. 9th round of 2002. Didn't even become a regular on the team until 2009-10. Is a bottom pairing dman.

Niklas Kronwall. 1st round of 2000. Became a regular on the roster in 2006-07. Top 2 dman.

Brendan Smith. 1st round of 2007. Still not a regular on the Wings roster.

Jakub Kindl. 1st round of 2005. Has played 2 half seasons with the big club.

Jimmy Howard. 2nd round of 2003. Didn't become legitimate NHL goaltender until 2009-10.

None of these guys cracked the NHL roster or became regular contributors for at least 4, and usually more, seasons in the system.

Looking back to 2002, the roster that mentored their current top players, you can see that they had some key players who were drafted by the organization and stayed there. They didn't win another cup until the next group really matured and the roster was augmented by some FA pickups and trades. The start of their current success can actually be traced back to some shit years until they drafted Steve Yzerman 4th overall in 1983. So is it the drafting or is it the development system? Ken Holland inherited a team in 1997 that was coached by Scotty Bowman, who had already put his fingerprints all over the organization. The system was in place already. He has just continued to manage it. It helps that he started is post-playing career as a scout, but I almost would have thought we would have seen more Zetterberg's and another Datsyuk or two over the last 15 years since he started making the calls..... :roll:
Just curious where were Lidstrom, Franzen and Holmstrem drafted. By what team and where in the draft order? I know, Lidstrom 53rd overall, Franzen - 97th overall, Holmstrom 257th overall. All by Detroit. But hey, only Gillis can't find later round steals cause he hasn't been drafting from a favorable position. Again, the Red Wings are far and away superior at finding gems outside the first round. You seem to really downplay Datsyuk and Zetterberg like they is nothing special, who drafted them and where in the order???? Whereabouts in the first round was Kronwall drafted???? On and on and on and on. Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Island Nucklehead » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:34 pm

Ken Holland traded for Robert Lang and gave up Fleischmann and Mike Green, shockingly bad. Bertuzzi for Matthias and Nick Spaling wasn't exactly a winner.

Chiarelli traded Kris Versteeg for Brandon Bochenski. Whopper.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:49 pm

RoyalDude wrote:I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say.

So should he have let the twins go and traded Kesler, Edler and Schneider etc ? You do realize EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE of these players along with Burrows and Bieksa have improved greatly since Gillis took over don't you ? You are probably the type of guy who buys an $80 strip loin at costco, marinates it with garlic flakes in a jar and parkay, cooks it on a George Foreman grill and wonders why it tastes like a catchers mitt. But hey you bought the steak right.... :lol:

You can't have it both ways Pacific Blue. Something tells me these players don't take off the same with Cheeseburger Boy calling the shots.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Uncle dans leg » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 pm

RoyalDude wrote: Gillis has had how many drafts now? 5 Drafts? That's bad my friend.
Detroits picks don't even start cracking the line up for at least 5 years after they're drafted. When they finally do, they pay their dues on the 3rd or 4th lines. Usually it takes even longer for them to become impact players.
As far as I can see, Gillis's picks are coming along quite nicely and will be in a position to be impact players along the same timeline.
Also, CoHo was a pretty decent prospect and if his old man hadn't have been snivelling in Gillis's ear so much he would still be a Canuck I figure. I dont blame Gillis for flushing that bullshit at all. Not to mention the player he picked up in the trade looks to fill a GLARING weakness recently exposed.

I think you need to cut ole luggage eyes some slack here
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:28 pm

RoyalDude wrote:I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say. I guess Meds realized that he couldn't compare GM's when it came Gillis drafting, cause it sucks, so he so conveniently shifts it to 'systems' and then how amazing Gillis is at re-siging players he inherited or signing BC born UFA's who wanted to come back and home and play in BC. LMAO

Pick an argument Meds, GM's or systems???? The bottom line is, the Canucks were the only team in the NHL at the end of last season whom did not have one of their own drafted players in the line-up, Gillis has had how many drafts now? 5 Drafts? That's bad my friend.
I did that because Detroit has a great system for developing players and it's hardly fair to compare the work of a GM, who has been manning the helm of the same team for 15 years, to another GM who has only been in his current posting for 4 years. Also, Gillis has made it no secret that he looks at Detroit's system as a model going forward.

Also, Gillis has only been the GM in Vancouver since 2008. That's only 4 years. If you look at all these Detroit players that you want to hold up as amazing draft picks from later rounds, well they took at least 4 years to mature to the point where they were NHL ready. And, again, 4 years vs. 15 years, not really a basis for comparisson, especially when the longer serving guy started as a scout and not a player agent.

Comparing Chiarelli and Gillis is the GM comparrison (I didn't clarify that in my last post). 6 years vs. 4 years, and their respective teams met in the finals 2 seasons ago. Outside of Lucic and Marchand, I'm not sure who Chiarelli has drafted in later rounds that have panned out for the Bruins.....and as I already said, he was only the GM for a month when those picks were made, so he's taking pretty much all cues from the scouts that year. As for trades, pretty close really. Ehrhoff was a better pick up for Vancouver than Seidenberg was for Boston. Horton a better pickup for the Bruins than Higgins or Booth have been for Vancouver.
RoyalDude wrote:Just curious where were Lidstrom, Franzen and Holmstrem drafted.
Of those 3 guys only Franzen was drafted under Ken Holland's tenure as GM. So I guess you are now comparing systems rather than General Managers?

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:50 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.
He's had 5 drafts. Let's look at them.

In 2008 he took Cody Hodgson 10th overall. This means he passed on Jordan Eberle, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, and Henrik Karlsson. Beyond those names there have been no real names that Gillis should have taken. There have been no diamonds that have come up out of the later rounds either.....Justin Shultz may become one, but I don't think I would have taken him over Hodgson at that point, and he was gone before Gillis drafted again. Eberle, Myers, or Karlsson, would have been better picks.....not sure on Ennis.

In 2009 he took Jordan Schroeder at 22nd overall. Nothing stands out in that draft where he missed the boat. Nobody has really blown anyone out of the water with a later round pick from that year either.

In 2010, and I could be mistaken, but I don't think the Canucks even had a draft pick until the 4th round. Again, nothing here that is looking like it was a missed gem.

In 2011 he took Niklas Jensen at 29th overall. Jensen looks to be a decent prospect in the making. Time will tell. Nobody behind him looks like they would have been a better option. And here again we see nobody coming out of nowhere in the later rounds.

In 2012 he took Brendan Gaunce 26th overall. Nobody behind Gaunce that looks to have been a more savvy selection.

Man Gillis just SUCKS at drafting. 5 years in a row with only one pick in the top 20 and he has nothing to show for it. No Datsyuk or Zetterberg, not even a Franzen. 5 years and only 3 players he passed on that would have been a better pick.....and all of them in the same year. Dammit anyways.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:53 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:I just love how Meds switches mid stream to benefit his own delusional argument from comparing GM's when talking about the Bruins drafting to JUMPING TO systems when analyzing Canucks draft picks like Gillis had so much to do with it. Fuck me. When will people stop waxing on about how amazing Gillis is for re-signing Nonis and Burke Canuck players. Wow, a real GM feat I say.
You are probably the type of guy who buys an $80 strip loin at costco, marinates it with garlic flakes in a jar and parkay, cooks it on a George Foreman grill and wonders why it tastes like a catchers mitt. But hey you bought the steak right.... :lol:
Wow did that ever just kill me Blob. :rofl:

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:14 pm

Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.
He's had 5 drafts. Let's look at them.

In 2008 he took Cody Hodgson 10th overall. This means he passed on Jordan Eberle, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, and Henrik Karlsson. Beyond those names there have been no real names that Gillis should have taken. There have been no diamonds that have come up out of the later rounds either.....Justin Shultz may become one, but I don't think I would have taken him over Hodgson at that point, and he was gone before Gillis drafted again. Eberle, Myers, or Karlsson, would have been better picks.....not sure on Ennis.

In 2009 he took Jordan Schroeder at 22nd overall. Nothing stands out in that draft where he missed the boat. Nobody has really blown anyone out of the water with a later round pick from that year either.

In 2010, and I could be mistaken, but I don't think the Canucks even had a draft pick until the 4th round. Again, nothing here that is looking like it was a missed gem.

In 2011 he took Niklas Jensen at 29th overall. Jensen looks to be a decent prospect in the making. Time will tell. Nobody behind him looks like they would have been a better option. And here again we see nobody coming out of nowhere in the later rounds.

In 2012 he took Brendan Gaunce 26th overall. Nobody behind Gaunce that looks to have been a more savvy selection.

Man Gillis just SUCKS at drafting. 5 years in a row with only one pick in the top 20 and he has nothing to show for it. No Datsyuk or Zetterberg, not even a Franzen. 5 years and only 3 players he passed on that would have been a better pick.....and all of them in the same year. Dammit anyways.
Erixon, Johannson, Palmieri, Ashton and Despres are players taken in the first round after Shroeder and are considered better prospects.

The big miss was Ryan O'Reilly who went early in the 2nd round, not to far after was Kyle Clifford. Drew Shore and Stefan Elliott are probably better prospects than Schroeder.

Marcus Foligno went in the 4th round. Brayden McNabb in the 3rd.

Gillis simply does not strike gold later in the draft. He sucks massive.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:19 pm

Meds wrote: Of those 3 guys only Franzen was drafted under Ken Holland's tenure as GM.
Then why didn't I see his name in your rebuttal?

Dude, Gillis could do us all a massive favor around here and start finding some good players later in the draft like your good buddy Holland did with Franzen, Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Trust me, there ain't nothing in our system whom Gillis drafted whom will match the NHL success of those 3 said players. Forgetabout. Whom you thinking in our system will end up being as good as the 3? Schroeder? Rodin? Jensen? Gaunce? Kassian? LMAO!!!!
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:33 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Meds wrote: Of those 3 guys only Franzen was drafted under Ken Holland's tenure as GM.
Then why didn't I see his name in your rebuttal?

Dude, Gillis could do us all a massive favor around here and start finding some good players later in the draft like your good buddy Holland did with Franzen, Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Trust me, there ain't nothing in our system whom Gillis drafted whom will match the NHL success of those 3 said players. Forgetabout. Whom you thinking in our system will end up being as good as the 3? Schroeder? Rodin? Jensen? Gaunce? Kassian? LMAO!!!!
Just an oversight on my part.

I doubt the Red Wings even expected those 3 players to be as successful as they have been. If they did then they wouldn't have passed them over so many times for so many duds. I doubt any GM is going to pick 3 guys in the 4th round, or later, that will turn out like they have.

Your arguments against GMMG are so full of holes man. And you forecast other prospects based on what the writers at HF say. The truth is, even Detroit didn't know what they had in Datsyuk and Zetterberg when they drafted them. Nobody did. The same rings true for most players picked after the second round. Detroit got lucky, it's like the guy who hits the inside straight flush on the river a couple of times, you don't expect his opponents to duplicate it, and you don't think they are terrible poker players when they don't hit the same lucky card. Because it is pure chance. You're entitled to your opinion about Gillis, doesn't mean your right. So quit trying to make up for the fact that you've stuck your neck way out on something and you can't back it up.

Btw, Burke's boy, Nonis, passed on Claude Giroux in 2006.....I haven't heard you say shit about that.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by Meds » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:38 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Meds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Gillis has no excuse, he sucks at drafting.
He's had 5 drafts. Let's look at them.

In 2008 he took Cody Hodgson 10th overall. This means he passed on Jordan Eberle, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, and Henrik Karlsson. Beyond those names there have been no real names that Gillis should have taken. There have been no diamonds that have come up out of the later rounds either.....Justin Shultz may become one, but I don't think I would have taken him over Hodgson at that point, and he was gone before Gillis drafted again. Eberle, Myers, or Karlsson, would have been better picks.....not sure on Ennis.

In 2009 he took Jordan Schroeder at 22nd overall. Nothing stands out in that draft where he missed the boat. Nobody has really blown anyone out of the water with a later round pick from that year either.

In 2010, and I could be mistaken, but I don't think the Canucks even had a draft pick until the 4th round. Again, nothing here that is looking like it was a missed gem.

In 2011 he took Niklas Jensen at 29th overall. Jensen looks to be a decent prospect in the making. Time will tell. Nobody behind him looks like they would have been a better option. And here again we see nobody coming out of nowhere in the later rounds.

In 2012 he took Brendan Gaunce 26th overall. Nobody behind Gaunce that looks to have been a more savvy selection.

Man Gillis just SUCKS at drafting. 5 years in a row with only one pick in the top 20 and he has nothing to show for it. No Datsyuk or Zetterberg, not even a Franzen. 5 years and only 3 players he passed on that would have been a better pick.....and all of them in the same year. Dammit anyways.
Erixon, Johannson, Palmieri, Ashton and Despres are players taken in the first round after Shroeder and are considered better prospects.

The big miss was Ryan O'Reilly who went early in the 2nd round, not to far after was Kyle Clifford. Drew Shore and Stefan Elliott are probably better prospects than Schroeder.

Marcus Foligno went in the 4th round. Brayden McNabb in the 3rd.

Gillis simply does not strike gold later in the draft. He sucks massive.
Better prospects according to who? Hockey's Future? :roll:

Is that Ryan Johannson? If so, apart from Clifford none of those guys are exactly well known names. And none of them at all has done shit at the NHL level. They may never.

The other thing you overlook, or simply ignore, is that most GMs don't have the time to actually scout players in depth themselves. They rely on a scouting team and have to base their picks off of what their scouts tell them. This rings true for every GM in the league. Your just a bitter armchair GM.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:49 am

Sigh.

RoyalDude, seriously.. we all know what you think by now.

In this stage of this thread you are pissing and moaning about how the Canucks first round pick three years ago (ie. he turned 22 six weeks ago.. for a player not selected at the top of the draft it's extremely early to be closing the book) has fared next to eight guys selected out of the following 22 picks.

Who knows where Jordan Schroeder is going to end up, I don't know if he's a good pick or not but what was known in 2009 is that he was probably in the top five in his draft class in terms of on ice skill - I thought you liked skilled hockey players Dude?

Anyway it's foolish to argue pretty much anything about Gillis' drafting thusfar, he has tied one hand behind his back (traded away a full draft worth of picks during his five years) and there's been far too little time to tell much of anything about project players like Connauton, Rodin, Schroeder, etc. It's extremely rare for players to be selected outside of the very top of the draft and immediately succeed at the NHL level, and what we can tell so far is that for Mike Gillis finding those players is either not a priority or not a strong suit.

What we don't know yet is whether he is capable of producing a couple of legit NHLers out of each draft.

Maybe four years from now Jordan Schroeder is producing at the NHL level, Kevin Connauton is a regular and Joe Cannata is looking like another Cory Schneider (that'd make 2009 look like a pretty successful draft), maybe they all bust. We just don't know.

Of course, don't let that get in the way of your constant complaining - I guess it's more fun for you to leap to conclusions than it is to just wait and express your constant, grinding, it-must-be-so-fucking-awful-to-experience-life-through-your-eyes pessimism in a more reasonable manner.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:52 am

Meds wrote:The other thing you overlook, or simply ignore, is that most GMs don't have the time to actually scout players in depth themselves. They rely on a scouting team and have to base their picks off of what their scouts tell them. This rings true for every GM in the league.
This is no excuse though, every GM is ultimately responsible for the decisions made at the draft whether he personally watched the players or not. A GM can pin the blame on his scouts but if he claims that's a problem and fails to address it then he's just as culpable as if he'd done the scouting himself.

Say what you will about Ron Delorme (and most Canucks fans have and will continue to), but Mike Gillis had a chance to clean house in his amateur scouting department and hasn't, really.

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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by RoyalDude » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:18 am

Meds wrote:
Better prospects according to who? Hockey's Future? :roll:

Is that Ryan Johannson? If so, apart from Clifford none of those guys are exactly well known names. And none of them at all has done shit at the NHL level. They may never.

The other thing you overlook, or simply ignore, is that most GMs don't have the time to actually scout players in depth themselves. They rely on a scouting team and have to base their picks off of what their scouts tell them. This rings true for every GM in the league. Your just a bitter armchair GM.
There is no point in arguing with someone who doesn't know who Marcus Johansson and Ryan O'Reilly is. But hey, Go Schroeder Go!

And BTW, Despres would be our best defensive prospect in our system. But not surprised you never heard of him either.

I'm just curious as to why Gillis has been unable to find any steals outside of the first round like the Bruins have in Bergeron and Lucic, both 2nd rounders and Krecji and Marchand both 3rd rounders. Key players to the Bruins Stanley Cup win. Not one prospect of his has that potential, and pulllleasse do not mention Rodin, Connauton blah, blah, blah....

In Nonis 3 short years he drafted Raymond, Edler and Hansen outside the first round! Shit, I don't even see any of Gillis late round picks having that potential. Forgetaboutit.
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Re: Luongo will Waive NTC If Asked To

Post by dbr » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:59 am

RoyalDude wrote:I'm just curious as to why Gillis has been unable to find any steals outside of the first round like the Bruins have in Bergeron and Lucic, both 2nd rounders and Krecji and Marchand both 3rd rounders. Key players to the Bruins Stanley Cup win. Not one prospect of his has that potential, and pulllleasse do not mention Rodin, Connauton blah, blah, blah....
Yawn. So Gillis doesn't stack up against four very impressive draft picks across four years by one of the league's best run organizations, you're really going out on a limb there Dude.

Bergeron was a great pick out of one of the best draft classes ever (but I could complain about him the same way you do about others.. what the fuck were the Bruins thinking passing on Shea Weber?), it's beyond unrealistic to expect that even occasionally from any organization.

Lucic I think we are all pissed about. His size allowed him to break into the league almost right away but it was two seasons after the 2006 draft before he produced like a good third liner and four before he produced like a second or first liner. The Canucks didn't have a second (or first, or third) in the draft of players that would currently be where Lucic was at in that third season, and overall in Gillis' tenure have just Hodgson/Sauve who are in comparable positions to Lucic in that fifth season.

Krejci and Marchand don't compare because they each took years (three for Krejci, four for Marchand) to break into the league after they were drafted. The Canucks only really have one forward drafted in a similar spot in Anton Rodin and he's had injury problems that have held up his development... all the rest of their selections have been too recent to judge or too late in the draft to fairly compare.

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