2012 UFAs

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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby dbr » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:27 pm

herb wrote:Edler had a disappointing season and I could see a situation where he is traded. We thought we had a developing stud in Edler, but this year seemed to be a step back or at best a plateau.


Career highs, All Star selection..
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby donlever » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:30 pm

dbr wrote:
herb wrote:Edler had a disappointing season and I could see a situation where he is traded. We thought we had a developing stud in Edler, but this year seemed to be a step back or at best a plateau.


Career highs, All Star selection..



Both opinions correct.

Career highs All Star selection good.

Play at seasons end and in post season disappointing.
A different goddamn hockey talk messageboard!
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby herb » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:56 pm

dbr wrote:Career highs, All Star selection..


Yup, Edler had a great regular season. He really helped to fill in the void left by Ehrhoff's departure. There are lots of things to like about Edler. He's big, has good wheels, has excellent vision, is a great passer and has a good shot.

I guess my disappointment with Edler's season is because of two things;

1) He was horrible in the playoffs. Like Luongo playoff blowout meltdown bad. If he doesn't make that turnover in game 1, maybe the series works out a bit differently?

2) He is not nearly physical enough. Aside from the odd big hit (which are fewer and farther between), Edler is as soft as Sami Salo. Heck, he is probably easier to play against than Salo. I don't know if it's the back injury that has caused him to back off on the physicality or what, but he needs to be a heck of a lot harder to play against. If Edler had half of the compete level of Kevin Bieksa, he would be one hell of a player.
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby Waffle » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:53 pm

I would argue that while personally Edler had a good season (ie his goals and assists), team wise he didn't, and in fact he was not nearly as good this year as he was last year for the team.

This is of course hard to measure objectively, but I will post the numbers based on Corsi and Fenwick numbers (which are based on events in a game) and also the ones based on goals for and against while on the ice.

I know its a lot of numbers, but in general numbers above 1 are good (and the higher the better), and numbers below 1 are not good. The Haro numbers are on the offensive side, the Hard numbers on the defensive side, and the Hart numbers can be thought of as an average of the other two.

By any of these measures, he was not as good this year as last in terms of how the team did when he was on the ice. Bieska and Hamhuis were our best defenceman this year, although Bieska was a bit better this year than last and Hamhuis a bit worse. I will also post Chara's (who is considered an elite defenceman) for comparison...he also was not as good this year as last.

5v5 Score Close Ratings

11-12......................Edler........Bieska..........Hamhuis........Salo.........Chara
Corsi numbers
.............CorHaro+....0.976........1.077............1.047.........0.958........1.124
.............CorHard+....1.016........1.071............1.097.........1.023........1.145
.............CorHart+.....0.996.......1.074.............1.072........1.023.........1.135
Fenwick numbers
.........FenHaro+........0.939........1.061 ...........1.032........0.908..........1.115
.........FenHard+........1.018........1.032............1.053........1.110..........1.152
.........FenHart+........0.978........1.043............1.042.........1.009.........1.133
Goals for/against numbers
............Haro+...........0.866........1.185............1.338........0.926..........1.128
............Hard+...........0.851.........0.754............0.949.......1.458...........0.871
............Hart+............0.858........0.970............1.144........1.192..........0.999

10-11
Corsi numbers
.............CorHaro+......1.071........1.050............1.097.........0.990........1.158
.............CorHard+......1.020........1.079............1.117.........1.013........1.122
.............CorHart+......1.045.........1.064............1.107........1.001.........1.140
Fenwick numbers
..........FenHaro+........1.093..........1.045...........1.076........0.989..........1.148
..........FenHard+........1.029..........1.072...........1.070........0.962..........1.085
..........FenHart+........1.061..........1.059............1.073........0.976..........1.117
Goals for/against numbers
............Haro+...........1.262........1.051............1.195........0.726..........1.347
............Hard+...........1.104........1.259............1.085........0.762..........1.494
............Hart+...........1.183.........1.155............1.140........0.744..........1.421
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby dbr » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:01 pm

I think it's possible that Edler is turning into a different defenseman than the five tool monster some of us thought he would be, I also think its possible that he tried to replace what we lost in Ehrhoff, to some extebt at the expense of his overall game.

To expect him to put it all together every night at age 26 is unrealistic but of course it is disappointing that his game fell apart so badly when it did.

But personally I think it's way way way too premature to say he has plateaued or even regressed, no matter what his possession stats for the year say.

Some day in hindsight you guys may be right but right now to me there are too many reasons to believe that's not the case.
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby Jovocop » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:37 pm

dbr wrote:I think it's possible that Edler is turning into a different defenseman than the five tool monster some of us thought he would be, I also think its possible that he tried to replace what we lost in Ehrhoff, to some extebt at the expense of his overall game.

To expect him to put it all together every night at age 26 is unrealistic but of course it is disappointing that his game fell apart so badly when it did.

But personally I think it's way way way too premature to say he has plateaued or even regressed, no matter what his possession stats for the year say.

Some day in hindsight you guys may be right but right now to me there are too many reasons to believe that's not the case.


To be fair, the whole defense was trying hard to replace what the Canucks lost in Ehrhoff. Edler is not or never will be the true #1 dman that the Canucks need.
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby Strangelove » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:51 pm

dbr wrote:I think it's possible that Edler is turning into a different defenseman than the five tool monster some of us thought he would be, I also think its possible that he tried to replace what we lost in Ehrhoff, to some extebt at the expense of his overall game.

To expect him to put it all together every night at age 26 is unrealistic but of course it is disappointing that his game fell apart so badly when it did.

But personally I think it's way way way too premature to say he has plateaued or even regressed, no matter what his possession stats for the year say.

Some day in hindsight you guys may be right but right now to me there are too many reasons to believe that's not the case.


Edler's main problem is that he's too damned nice. We need a major asshole in the top 4 and Edler would probably need to be the dee going the other way in part of a package for said beast.
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby SKYO » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:19 pm

Edler realistically is an awesome #2 dman and plays much better as such, so hopefully we can acquire a right side dman who can log big minutes so they can form a deadly combo for next season.
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby Strangelove » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:28 pm

SKYO wrote:Edler realistically is an awesome #2 dman and plays much better as such, so hopefully we can acquire a right side dman who can log big minutes so they can form a deadly combo for next season.


That would be great Skyo, but I think it's more realistic we trade Edler+ for that RS beast.

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Ballard - Beast
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby tantalum » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:35 pm

Strangelove wrote:That would be great Skyo, but I think it's more realistic we trade Edler+ for that RS beast.

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Ballard - Beast



Seeing a lot of trading Edler but why not Bieksa? I realize Edler has more value of course, but while Edler had a rough series he stepped up in his previous playoffs. I like Bieksa and he's a great team guy, but it still concerns me that you still can't play him with other partners but Willie MItchell and Dan Hamhuis. Just a thought. I'm really not adverse to trading any member of the team.
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby dbr » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:45 pm

Strangelove wrote:Edler's main problem is that he's too damned nice. We need a major asshole in the top 4 and Edler would probably need to be the dee going the other way in part of a package for said beast.


Yeah agreed on Edler and the need for a big time asshole who can play tough minutes - I thought that was Kevin Bieksa but he seems to fall apart when he's out there trying to initiate.

Anyway if we're not dealing Edler for the RS beast then I'm not sure trading him away doesn't take the Canucks too far off from the offensive team Mike Gillis claims he is building.. that Hamhuis/Bieksa/Ballard/Beast top four.. if you're talking about Luke Schenn then that's two players who can contribute to the attack (but can't be expected to make something out of nothing).

If Gillis can scoop up a great offensive defender like Justin Schultz then you can probably deal Edler, or if he's getting you Shea Weber in return then you can probably deal him. Otherwise..
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby Waffle » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:48 pm

Most NHL players have an off year here and there, and Edler's year may be just that.

If he can keep his goals and assists up next year, and play like he did last year (until his hand was broken in the playoffs) he is just about as good as anyone.

But yes it would be nice to see a lot more tough play from someone back there.
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby dbr » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:52 pm

Waffle wrote:If he can keep his goals and assists up next year, and play like he did last year (until his hand was broken in the playoffs) he is just about as good as anyone.


This is it with Edler for me - he has shown so many tools that, if used properly and at the right times, would make him one of the league's best defensemen.

Does that make his failure to be that at 26 disappointing? I guess, yeah. But it's pretty damn early to be closing the book on this player.

If two or three seasons from now he's still all-world some nights and the fifth or sixth best defenseman on the team others then yeah, I think it will be time to wonder if his potential will ever be realized.

(Of course, the Canucks may not be able to wait that long - still my preference would be to add a better defenseman than Alex and keep him too.)
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby Fred » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:07 pm

Here's a question regarding the'Nucks defense...who is their number one guy ? if the answer is not clear i think we have a problem. Second question after henrik who is the next play maker on the team ?
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Re: 2012 UFAs

Postby Jovocop » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:44 am

Fred wrote:Here's a question regarding the'Nucks defense...who is their number one guy ? if the answer is not clear i think we have a problem. Second question after henrik who is the next play maker on the team ?


Having a #1 dman would not solve all the problems, the chemistry is just not there.

Daniel is the next play maker on the team. Seriously, some teams do not even have a playmaker to begin with let alone having two.
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