Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

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Who do you start in game 5?

Luo
2
4%
Ginger
43
96%
 
Total votes : 45

Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:59 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote:
wafflecombine wrote:Say what you want, but Lou had the equivilant of the Maple Leafs playing in front of him for his games and Ginger got the real Canucks. I'm just glad they finally decided to show up.


Completely and totally agree.........BUT.......perhaps there is an underlying psychological reasoning for this?

Perhaps there is simply too much negative history there with Lou....to the point where the team simply performs better with Schneider in front?

Move to strike. Conjecture. No basis for argument.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby cjc » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:12 pm

Because most fans want Schneider to start game 5 doesn't mean we're all Luo haters. A portion may be, but I thought Luo was the only one playing in game 1 and he was awesome. I avoided game 2, (thankfully) preferring to PVR it and watch later. Ended up deleting it before seeing anything.

Schneider deserves the start, pure and simple. Just because Luo has been the starter and it was assumed he would be in these playoffs, doesn't mean he gets to step in when the "back-up" has built momentum. As I said previously, if Luo has a bad game and we lose, all hell would break loose. Unfair to him.

Time for Schneiderman.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby donlever » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:22 pm

Schneider kept them in the game in the first last night when they appeared disinterested.

The guy is cool as a cucumber and the team hung him out to dry for the first 20.

The.

Man.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby wafflecombine » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:23 pm

I don't know FL. I don't think I can voice it any better than Schneider did himself regarding Lou and Van fanbase.

The body of work offerred up by the team, has been shameful. Be that as it may, I still cheer like a mad man when they score, curse like a sailor when they screw the pooch and pray that they dig themselves out of this hole.

I still start Schneider for no other reason than I liked what I saw in Game 4 and don't want to mess with the chemistry. don't need stats to justify that. I might even bite my tongue and allow Raymond to stay out of the pressbox.

@ mathonwy - lol, we'll played sir!
@ cjc - You make some valid points and as I said, I would start Schneider too. However, my main focus was the body of work produced by the team in front of the goalies in response to some loose statistical numbers tossed out in the thread as seemingly definitive proof that 5 out of 4 dentists preferred Lou on the bench. I think there is a better than average chance that we loose games 1 and 2 regardless of who is in net. We stank it up so bad not even Grant Fuhr and a barrel of coke could have won.

Now from a highly cycnical business point of view, if Schneid's looses, his trade value remains the same. By not playing Lou, his trade value remains in tact also. We've debated in other threads whether he actually has value so I won't rehash old stuff.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby wafflecombine » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:24 pm

donlever wrote:Schneider kept them in the game in the first last night when they appeared disinterested.

The guy is cool as a cucumber and the team hung him out to dry for the first 20.

The.

Man.


Same could be said of Lou in Game 1... though they never got interested.

Agree on Schneider's quality totally... cool, good positioning and a great goalie. We are blessed in Van to have such a good tandem.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby Arachnid » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:28 pm

What's with all the hate? We are a two goalie team, go with the hottest...we actually have the luxury of alternating or injury....Luo is not done, the team plays different dynamics under each 'tender....I am pretty confident with him starting in game 5 as well but Cory has earned it too 1.02 G.A. < Luo 3.59
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby wafflecombine » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:55 pm

lol... no hate, just good discussion.

From the Province - http://blogs.theprovince.com/2012/04/18 ... t-be-easy/

LOS ANGLES – In the win-or-go-home game, the Canucks will go with their backup.

Well, you can actually stop calling Cory Schneider the backup. Two playoff starts in a row means those days are behind him.

In a decision that is sure to have lasting implications, head coach Alain Vigneault will start Schneider instead of Roberto Luongo, once the captain and the core of the team.
“Whichever decision I made would have been the right one,” Vigneault said. “But without getting into the specifics of why Cory is playing tonight, I’m confident he’s going to have a good game.”

Vigneault had a face-to-face meeting with both goalies Tuesday night. His decision to go down Marblehead Road could change the face of the franchise.
Luongo chose not talk with media, but this will be hard for him to deal with. He was the starter for Game 1 of the playoffs. He played two games, was great at points, consistently good and made just a handful of mistakes.
This isn’t about his play. This is about the team believing that Schneider is better. And if the team feels that way now, why didn’t it feel that way to start the postseason?

It’s a good question. And will be reversed if Schneider wins tonight and the Cancuks go back to Luongo for Game 5. Don’t for a second think that’s not possible.

For now, through no fault of his own, Luongo has lost his spot as the team’s definitive No. 1 goalie. It’s hard to imagine him wanting to play another year in Vancouver under these circumstances.

Why would he want to come back and split the position, or worse be resigned to being the backup, if Schneider does prove he really is better?

The Canucks took away Luongo’s goalie coach Ian Clark a couple of years ago. They reduced his workload dramatically, even though he has always said he loves to play. And now, he’s benched for the two biggest games of the year, a decision which had to involve GM Mike Gillis with strong input from goalie coach Rollie Melanson.

So to sum up, they fired his coach, cut his games and took away his job in the playoffs, which he lives for. Being a pround man, at some point he’s going to say enough is enough.

“I’m not surprised at all,” Schneider said. “Nothing surprises us anymore. We both have to be ready for anything.
“After playing last game, I thought there was a chance I would play again.
“We’re both professionals and grown men. We can handle anything they decide.”

Moving forward with Schneider tonight is yet another clue they are planning move forward with him next year.
A Luongo trade will not be easy. If he does tell the team he wants out, he’ll select a few destinations for the Canucks to choose from. Tampa would be on the list, probably Florida and some wild cards, maybe Detroit. It won’t be long.
Luongo is singed until 2022. That’s ten more years.
Coming back with both goalies next year can’t be totally ruled out, but it seems terribly unlikely right now.

If Luongo is gone, life will change for Schneider who would be the starter for the first time in his NHL career.
“I’ve been a starter at other levels, I played 60 games in Manitoba,” Schneider said. “I understand, it’s not the NHL. But you have the same ups and downs in that season as you would in any season.
“It’s harder to be perfect over more games.”
And we all know Vancouver demands their goalies be perfect!
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:56 pm

wafflecombine wrote:I don't know FL. I don't think I can voice it any better than Schneider did himself regarding Lou and Van fanbase.

The body of work offerred up by the team, has been shameful. Be that as it may, I still cheer like a mad man when they score, curse like a sailor when they screw the pooch and pray that they dig themselves out of this hole.

I still start Schneider for no other reason than I liked what I saw in Game 4 and don't want to mess with the chemistry. don't need stats to justify that. I might even bite my tongue and allow Raymond to stay out of the pressbox.

@ mathonwy - lol, we'll played sir!
@ cjc - You make some valid points and as I said, I would start Schneider too. However, my main focus was the body of work produced by the team in front of the goalies in response to some loose statistical numbers tossed out in the thread as seemingly definitive proof that 5 out of 4 dentists preferred Lou on the bench. I think there is a better than average chance that we loose games 1 and 2 regardless of who is in net. We stank it up so bad not even Grant Fuhr and a barrel of coke could have won.

Now from a highly cycnical business point of view, if Schneid's looses, his trade value remains the same. By not playing Lou, his trade value remains in tact also. We've debated in other threads whether he actually has value so I won't rehash old stuff.


What did I play? Did I win something? :)

Exactly what you said. The statement of, the team plays better in front of Schneid, is a statement that I currently have no empirical evidence to prove or disprove.

Making decisions based on gut feelings is good if you want to gamble but I'm more into managed risk. I'm sure one could use some of the Fenwick and Corsi info to determine if there is a statistical significance between games played in front of Luo and games played in front of Schneid.

But yes, even though Luo didn't play badly. The fact is, the team did play drastically better in games 3 and 4 with Schneid in the net. I guess the question is, how much emphasis does AV put on the correlation of the team playing better and Schneid in net versus Luo in net.

If you subscribe to the hot goalie theory (which probably 95% of hockey fans/analysts/talking heads do), then Schneid is your man for game 5. Of course, doing what everyone else is doing is typically not how one becomes successful.

Nice cynical business view point. I like it. However, I'm pretty sure the decision makers at the Canuck organization are in no way even thinking that far ahead. The Canucks going out in the first round will be very bad for the Vancouver economy as well as bad for overall BC morale. But, I will make sure I have my tinfoil hat on just in case. 8-)
Last edited by mathonwy on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby Arbour » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:00 pm

wafflecombine wrote:I hate to quibble with you but lets also compare the quality of the team in front of both Lou and Schneid's on the games in question

Which is why I said in so many words all things being equal start the goalie with the hot hand. The last two games weren't exactly a cake walk for Schneider either, some terrific saves including stopping a penalty shot. If the situation were reversed I'd say start Lou. At this point the Canucks have the luxury of having two goal tenders who can steal a game, and as you point out the way they've played they made need it to win the next three in a row.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby Meds » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:25 am

Bottom line: The team got it together and Schneider should have 2 wins in his pocket returning home from LA, it was an unlucky goal that put us away in game 3. Well, unlucky and stupid on the part of Edler who was nowhere to be found in games 1through 3.

In front of Luongo the team played a scattered, unenthusiastic game. The team appeared to lose confidence in Luongo after the second defeat at the hands of Chicago in 2010. They were shaken following 2009, but it didn't really show until Schneider showed up last year and they suddenly saw what consistency in the crease could do for a team.

It doesn't even matter that Luongo was the best player in a Canucks jersey in games 1 and 2, the rest of the team was garbage and didn't support him, and the fact of the matter is that Schneider has let in 2 goals in 2 games and Luongo let in 7 in 2 games. Schneider looks poised and confident in net, he just appears unflappable. However, Luongo, on the other hand, looks more scrambled and doesn't present with the same calm demeanor, and while that may be due in part to the fact that the team in front of him was absolute shit, Schneider has just looked more composed all season and the team has looked more confident at both ends.....and as a coach you are a complete moron if you mess with that in an elimination game.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby Meds » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:39 am

mathonwy wrote:
Farhan Lalji wrote:
wafflecombine wrote:Say what you want, but Lou had the equivilant of the Maple Leafs playing in front of him for his games and Ginger got the real Canucks. I'm just glad they finally decided to show up.


Completely and totally agree.........BUT.......perhaps there is an underlying psychological reasoning for this?

Perhaps there is simply too much negative history there with Lou....to the point where the team simply performs better with Schneider in front?

Move to strike. Conjecture. No basis for argument.


The stats are the basis for argument. Over the past two years the Canucks have consistently performed better with Schneider in net than when Luongo has gotten the start. Their winning percentages speak for themselves, their save percentages and GAA's also speak volumes. I can't think of any hockey player who doesn't think, on some level, that they have a better chance to win a game when they start off with the goalie who holds the best individual stats.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby darren » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:06 am

Maybe it's only a coincidence that the Canucks allowed 3 or 4 goals in the first two games and only one in each of the last two games.

But I know which coincidence I prefer.

I've been a Lou supporter when everyone else was throwing him under the bus because the team in front of him couldn't score. Lou is a top 10 goalie, who just (IMHO) lost his job to a top 5 goalie.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby wafflecombine » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:33 am

You give Ginger the team that showed up in Game 1 and 2 and he looses too and has a similar GAA/S%. Have we forgotten the last game against Calgary where that was precisely the case, with fewer penalties and we still lost 3-1? First part of this series we were on our heels from the first shift. Lets not build this into something it isn't. If the team has subconsciously voted with its feet by ALLOWING themselves to ALMOST be eliminated in a first round SWEEP cause they PREFER Ginger to Lou... well then we deserve to be out for being unprofessional. For my money this was simply a relapse of the "shit the bed" style play we saw just before the Chicago game that woke us up. Lack of scoreing, dead PP and special olympics style defensive play.

I'm just happy they finally showed up. I have empathy for Lou but am also glad we have Ginger ready to go. Best tandem in the league and I hope I'm still watching Canucks hockey come June.
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby Topper » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:48 pm

Isn't what is going on, precisely why Cory was not traded?
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Re: Game 5 playoff elimination - Luo or Ginger?

Postby NorCalNucks » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:43 pm

As much as I am worry about Lu's mental toughness I am not so sure I would want to crown Ginger as the No. 1. Much of what I hear and read here in the States about the games are NOT about Lu but rather the inability of the forwards to put goals in. As a quote unquote "elite" team, you can't expect your goalie to stand on his head day in and day out. That's what teams with no depth need to resort to, hoping their goalie can dig/save them. I strongly hope that we can sign Ginger to a reasonable raise and Lu will be willing to share the load. We will have TWO top 10 goalies in the league and I don't think anyone else can proclaim that, not Boston, not Nashville.

edit: I also think part of the "controversy" is because Vancouver media want to sell some more news for people to read...
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