Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 center?

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Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:47 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Well it's pretty much the kind of trash your proposing, Farhan. You ask if Kesler will ever be a #1 Centre, then you turn that into a ridiculous proposal to get John Tavares. If we're living in complete fantasy-ville, I think we should go for Sidney Crosby.

"How set our organization would be for many more years if we made a move like that" applies to every team in the NHL.

Man, we'd be a sick team if we had Sidney Crosby...
Is John Tavares on the level of a Crosby, Stamkos, or Malkin right now? :|

My reasoning for asking if Kesler had the potential to be a true elite # 1 dominant center like Henrik, is because of what we saw in the Nashville series last year. Maybe it was an anomaly (I think it was), but maybe it wasn't. If it wasn't, then what I suggested was that maybe 18 months down the road, Kesler's line could assume the official role as the #1 line and we wouldn't have to worry about our dominant offense being watered down. We could then use Schneider/??? as a package to trade for something else......like a quality defenseman.

However - if Kesler doesn't have that potential, then I think it's worth exploring the idea of getting a guy that COULD take over one day.......so that the Canucks maintain their strength and identity of a skilled puck possession team that could light an opposing team up while not sacrificing their solid defensive play.

People on here speculate all the time about us getting Rick Nash and Shea Weber. Even though those are different situations (I.e. Requested trade, RFA), I don't think trading for those types of guys would be any more or less difficult or impossible than trading for a guy like Tavares......especially when you consider the fact that we have the necessary pieces to put together a package of interest.

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Island Nucklehead » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:55 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote: preserving our biggest strength for years to come.
The best way to do this will be to draft and develop well. Hope guys like Schroeder, Kassian, Jensen, Tanev, Connaughton etc. turn into full-time NHL'ers and realize their potential. Hope guys like Schneider (assuming we keep him), Edler, Booth, Kesler, Hansen etc. can continue or improve their level of play. You don't go around blowing up your team because you're worried about 2,3 or 5 years away. The Red Wings are probably pretty worried about Lidstrom's eventual retirement, but guys like Shea Weber and Ryan Suter might become available. Those options aren't on the table if they trade away Kronwall, Howard and Fillpula a couple years ago for Jay Bouwmeester...

Farhan, it's just that it's so unfathomable that a President's trophy caliber team would seek to completely revamp itself in such a drastic way. To do that would indicate the Canucks feel there is a serious problem. Their play and results obviously indicate otherwise. Diplomatic enough??

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Island Nucklehead » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:14 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote: Is John Tavares on the level of a Crosby, Stamkos, or Malkin right now? :|
Nope, but he ain't far off. At his age, potential, and value to the franchise, he's as untouchable as they come.

BTW, Crosby is a UFA in 2013. He's got a NMC that kicks in for 2012-2013. I wonder if they'd be interested in a package of our 2013 UFA's this summer before he holds them hostage in negotiations?

To the Pens: Edler, Burrows, Malhotra, Higgins, Lapierre, Gillis' second chin and left eye-bag + 7th rounder.

To the Canucks: Sid the Kid and Dan Bylsma's busted stick-blade!

Git'r done MG!!!!

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:34 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Farhan Lalji wrote: preserving our biggest strength for years to come.
Those options aren't on the table if they trade away Kronwall, Howard and Fillpula a couple years ago for Jay Bouwmeester...Farhan, it's just that it's so unfathomable that a President's trophy caliber team would seek to completely revamp itself in such a drastic way. To do that would indicate the Canucks feel there is a serious problem. Their play and results obviously indicate otherwise. Diplomatic enough??


1) I know you're just citing an example, but a guy like Tavares is not going to be as big a bust as Bouwmeester was.

2) Guys like Jensen, Kassian, Connaughton, etc., are all solid prospects, but none of these guys are the type of guys that can become franchise players......or players that can be the face of a franchise once the current franchise player moves on or is no longer capable of being that guy. Hodgson wasn't either. Just as Datsyuk did for Stevie Y, perhaps a guy like Tavares could do the same for Hank when the time is right.

3) As much as I love Schneider, either him or Luongo is an extra part at this point. Schroeder doesn't even play for us right now. In essence, the only real roster player we'd be losing in my proposed package would be Edler. With all that mind, I don't think it's fair at all to say that we'd be "completely revamping itself in such a drastic way" when you consider the fact that our core players (twins, Lou, Bieksa, etc.) along with our style of play would remain completely intact.

Also - as Gillis proved at the trade deadline, and earlier this year with the Booth deal, he is NOT afraid to make changes.....as long as it improves the team and complements the current core in continuing to be successful. Their play and results obviously indicate this. Diplomatic enough?

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:25 pm

One last thing:

As "untouchable" as Tavares probably is, we also have to keep in mind that Schnieder is a massive blue chipper himself right now. Hell - some teams might even consider a potential franchise goalie being more coveted than a potential franchise center. That, combined with the fact that we'd be adding in a very solid defenseman with great upside (Edler), along with another promising center (Schroeder), and all of a sudden.......the deal doesn't sound like something that the Islanders would laugh it. A franchise goalie instead of a franchise center, plus greater depth in other areas.

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Madcombinepilot » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:57 pm

well, I gotta hand it to ya farhan,

at least your off the vinny sack.
The 'Chain of Command' is the chain I am going to beat you with until you understand I am in charge.

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Topper » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:45 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote:One last thing:

As "untouchable" as Tavares probably is, we also have to keep in mind that Schnieder is a massive blue chipper himself right now. Hell - some teams might even consider a potential franchise goalie being more coveted than a potential franchise center. That, combined with the fact that we'd be adding in a very solid defenseman with great upside (Edler), along with another promising center (Schroeder), and all of a sudden.......the deal doesn't sound like something that the Islanders would laugh it. A franchise goalie instead of a franchise center, plus greater depth in other areas.
Luongo back whence he came?
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:49 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote:well, I gotta hand it to ya farhan,

at least your off the vinny sack.
I'm becoming slight more realistic with each passing day. :P

Sometime in 2015, I am confident that I will win you over with one of my proposals. : :twisted:

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:09 pm

One last thought I have:

Whether we like to admit it or not, things can change fast.....especially when certain people reach a certain age. We of all people should know that by now.Back in 2004 for instance, none of us could even fathom the idea that the WCE were going to be going into decline in the not-so-distant future......but it happened. Although the twins showed significant improvement in the 05/06 season, the decline of the WCE outweighed it by a significant margin......resulting in the team missing the playoffs and the team being blown up. The twins were very good, but weren't good enough to the point where they could completely dominate like the WCE was doing from 02-04. Although we got lucky with the Luongo deal, and did marginally decent over the next 2 seasons, it wouldn't be until the 2008/2009 season where the Canucks would have their "desired style" back in-tact......and being worthy of "dark horse" category again.

The point I'm making is this: the biggest reason why the Canucks are successful right now, is because of the dominance of Sedin-Sedin-Burrows, and the dominance of our offense........just as the 02-04 Canucks were pretty damned good because of the dominance of the WCE. Given the age of the twins, we need to find a heir apparent to the twins......otherwise, just was the case in 05/06, the Canucks could head for an unexpected drastic drop if their #1 strength goes into decline.

If the Canucks offer aSchneider/??? Deal for acquire a top quality defenseman.......and if the twins go into slight decline 18 months from now, then we'd basically be seeing a different style of hockey (I.e. Better defensively, more inept offensively.......resulting in a style of play that wouldn't be as natural for us.........as was the case with the Canucks between 2006-2008).

What I'm saying might sound a bit complex (Im finding it difficult to express what I'm trying to say in more simplistic terms), but the ultimate point I'm trying to make is that the Canucks need to find a way to preserve their current strengths and style of play for the long term.

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Waffle » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:35 pm

Did you see the following post Farhan? It would seem on the surface to support the premise that offence is more important than defence.

Behind the numbers:The Wild West
http://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2012/4/2 ... #storyjump

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:13 pm

Waffle wrote:Did you see the following post Farhan? It would seem on the surface to support the premise that offence is more important than defence.

Behind the numbers:The Wild West
http://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2012/4/2 ... #storyjump
Interesting link.

Don't get me wrong though - I do NOT think that offense is more important than defense. That's too general of a statement for anyone to make. Teams like NYR, St. Louis, Minnesota, and NJD of yesteryear would certainly take exception to a statement like that.

It really depends on the style of the team.

In the Canucks' case, given their style of play (I.e. Puck possession, skilled, above average speed, at least 2/3's of our defensemen having the ability and willingness to move the puck forward and join the rush), the Canucks NEED to be a team that has the ability to dominate offensively.....while still having the ability to be tremendous defensively.

Although the Canucks should need to be able to have the ability to shut down, it cannot and should not be our style of play based on the players that we have.......otherwise over the long haul, our players will naturally deviate from that style since it's not our natural style. Case in point - the 2007/08 season after the Canucks simply got bored/sick/tired of playing the trap as they had the previous year (due to being forced to after not having the appropriate level of talent up front).

In a hypothetical scenario where the Canucks create a package and move one of their goalies for a defensemen, my concern is that we will not have a dominant top line to replace the twins if they start to decline in 12-18 months from now.

If the Canucks want to be a "flash in the pan" like teams such as Anaheim, Tampa Bay, and Carolina (I.e. Being dangerous for a few years only to head into decline), then no problem. However - if they truly want to build a consistent long term perennial contender like Detroit has, then they have to make sure that their identity and strengths as a team remain intact.

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Island Nucklehead » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:05 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote: In a hypothetical scenario where the Canucks create a package and move one of their goalies for a defensemen, my concern is that we will not have a dominant top line to replace the twins if they start to decline in 12-18 months from now.
If the Sedins decline as fast as you say trading one of our goalies and our most productive D-man isn't going to save us. If the Sedins magically forget how to play hockey that fast we're fucked. Blow it up. Done.
If the Canucks want to be a "flash in the pan" like teams such as Anaheim, Tampa Bay, and Carolina (I.e. Being dangerous for a few years only to head into decline), then no problem. However - if they truly want to build a consistent long term perennial contender like Detroit has, then they have to make sure that their identity and strengths as a team remain intact.
How often does Detroit go about trading their best assets for singular players? They are a great team because they AUGMENT their core and are better than the sum of their parts. They don't go out seeking out a new core entirely. Datsyuk had back to back 97 point seasons, and now is under a point/game guy. Is he on the decline? Should they be in a panic to find someone to replace him? I don't see them rushing to do so. I do see them signing depth pieces like Bertuzzi and Ian White, all the while continuing to draft and develop their own players.

Tampa Bay has a ton of draft picks this summer. That seems a likely option for our goaltending logjam. A couple first round picks would go a long way to strengthening the organization's depth. And it is a far more realistic way to follow a Detroit model than what you're proposing. We should be looking to draft the next Giroux (22nd overall), James Neal (33rd), Jordan Eberle (22nd), Nicklas Kronwall (29th) etc. We don't need John Tavares this year or next, we need young, cheap, talented players for 3-4 years down the road.

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Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Tiger » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:01 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote:well, I gotta hand it to ya farhan,

at least your off the vinny sack.
And reuniting the WCE... :)

Agree with Islands assessment of the Canucks.. We are now reasonably strong down the center..
Nobody is going to replace the core forward players ( possible exception = Raymond )..
This year saw an improvement on the bottom 2 lines and in overall team toughness but we were unable to
get a "Beast" Dman.. which should be our prime target for the offseason..

TheTaveres trade idea lacks any substantive reasoning.. basically a bad pipe dream..
" If you cant beat them in the alley - you can't beat them on the ice

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:56 am

Tiger wrote:
And reuniting the WCE... :)
Last time I suggested THAT was in late 2008 when I figured that the Mats Sundin ship had sailed and that the Canucks could spend 8 million on the WCE (4 for Nazzy, 2.5 for Bert, 1.5 for Mo) instead as a solid 3rd or 4th line......for 1 year. Given that we had freed up money to play with, I didn't think it was a terribly bad idea at the time.

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Can Ryan Kesler ever be an elite #1 cen

Post by Farhan Lalji » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:46 am

Island Nucklehead wrote: If the Sedins decline as fast as you say trading one of our goalies and our most productive D-man isn't going to save us. If the Sedins magically forget how to play hockey that fast we're fucked. Blow it up. Done.
As I stated, I don't think the twins will decline in a similar manner to the WCE. I clearly stated that I think the twins will still be very good players for years to come, but will most likely not be the 100+ point calibre players that they were last year and the year before (maybe one more season, but that's it). The point of my WCE analogy was to show a worst case scenario.......and that things can change insanely fast.
How often does Detroit go about trading their best assets for singular players? They are a great team because they AUGMENT their core and are better than the sum of their parts. They don't go out seeking out a new core entirely. Datsyuk had back to back 97 point seasons, and now is under a point/game guy. Is he on the decline? Should they be in a panic to find someone to replace him? I don't see them rushing to do so. I do see them signing depth pieces like Bertuzzi and Ian White, all the while continuing to draft and develop their own players.
Not often, but they have done this in the past (I.e. Keith Primeau and Paul Coffey for Brendan Shanahan). My idea doesn't involve seeking out a "new core entirely."

-Read that above statement
-Now read that above statement again.
-Our core is the twins, Kesler, Bieksa, and one of our current goalies. Period. We'd still have all that, and much more of our current team.

One reason why the Red Wings were able to continue their success, was because guys like Datsyuk and Franzen were successfully able to replace Yzerman and Shanahan as the top "alpha leaders"........which also allowed them to preserve their strengths and identity as a team. Depth and pieces are great, but you need those 1-2 top tier guys that can replace your current top 1-2 tier guys when the time arrives.

Tampa Bay has a ton of draft picks this summer. That seems a likely option for our goaltending logjam. A couple first round picks would go a long way to strengthening the organization's depth. And it is a far more realistic way to follow a Detroit model than what you're proposing. We should be looking to draft the next Giroux (22nd overall), James Neal (33rd), Jordan Eberle (22nd), Nicklas Kronwall (29th) etc. We don't need John Tavares this year or next, we need young, cheap, talented players for 3-4 years down the road.
I can agree with that, and that's a great point. Keep this in mind though - for every Giroux that's out there, most draft picks take much longer to develop. The twins for instance, took about 6 years to really come into their own. We could risk having 1-2 down years at some point (I.e. Kind of like we did when we transitioned from the WCE era to the twins era), but that's just my opinion.

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