Are the Sedins on the Decline?

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Are the Sedins on the decline?

No, they're fine, just in a slump
35
74%
Yes, we're doomed
5
11%
No sure, still too early to say
7
15%
 
Total votes : 47

Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby coco_canuck » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:59 pm

mathonwy wrote:Sure beats doing real work. :) :) :)

So, who here is actually accomplishing anything at work these days? lol.


:lol:

I had to abandon this discussion for a few hours to wrap up work in order to watch the game live instead of on DVR.

So, yes, I did get some work done in between debating hockey.....kinda like a little coffee with your sugar....
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Meds » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:12 pm

coco_canuck wrote:That's a regressive way of looking at their performances for a number of reasons.


No, it's a factual way of looking at their performances. It is neither progressive nor regressive.

coco wrote:Secondly, the twins relative failures are measured in 3 second round exits and a loss in the Stanley Cup final in their 4 playoff appearances as the star players on this team. So in each playoff year, they've been amongst the the top 2-8 teams standing.

So in terms of their potential future success, they're constantly in the top 25% of the league come playoff time. In terms of probability alone, the more you rounds you win, and the more appearances you have, the better your chances of winning the cup.

So they're showing that their chances of getting it done are improving by regularly winning at least one round and last year moving all the way to the final game of the season.

As you said yourself, they're getting closer. So if they're continually growing, and inching closer to their ultimate goal, then it's rather short-sighted to say they cannot get it done and have never had it within in them to win, because that presupposes an imaginary ceiling that cannot be bypassed regardless of any possible improvements.

To say something is impossible, when it's clear it's not impossible, is pretty stupid in my mind.


Nobody is disbuting the fact that they have been in the top 25% come playoffs. Nobody cares about that either. What is up for debate is if they can be in the top 25% in games where everything is on the line, and can they then lead the team from being top 8 to top spot. They lead the team to the top 2 last year, so yes, they can get that far. They were useless in 2 of 4 rounds though.

Nobody said it is impossible.

coco wrote:Agreed, but I don't see how that works against my argument, if you're intending it as a point of emphasis for your own position against mine.

The context of my initial post was directed at those who say the twins cannot be a part of a team that goes deep, let alone win the cup. Not debating whether they're good enough to play superman.


It doesn't really work for either side if the twins are the sole subjects under scrutiny. You'll note that that particular comment prefaced my admission to playing devil's advocate.

coco wrote:The other factor that strengthens this side of the ledger is the pure ability, character and individual accomplishments of the Twins. Between them they have a Hart, a Lindsey, and two Art-Ross trophies.

We're talking about elite level players who are on one of the best teams in the league and they've had moderate to good playoff success individually and with their teams.


We have all seen plenty of players, particularly of the European variety (no offence Per), who have had their share of regular season success only to disappear after 82 games. As I said, the talent and actual skill of the Sedin's is not at all up for debate, at least in my mind. They have elite skill sets.

coco wrote:Isn't it more irrational to question the success ceiling of two of the best players in the league who are clearly dedicated and motivated to win the cup, than saying they have the ability to possibly win the cup?

And the biggest distinction being made by me is that it is POSSIBLE the Twins can do it while the other says it's IMPOSSIBLE. If it's difficult to ascertain certainties, then why is an assumed certainty a similarly just and rational argument?


As I said, I'm playing the devil's advocate. My opinion of the Sedin's is that they are elite players in the NHL, late bloomers, incredibly smart, have great character, and are the epitomy of stoicism on the ice. Can they lead this team to a Cup? Before tonight I would have said probably not. My reason was simple: They don't have the emotional edge to LEAD the team there. Although tonight seemed to indicate that maybe they could surprise me as Henrik certainly showed more aggression than we've ever seen from him before after Keith brought the flying elbow on Daniel.

The point of my original reply to your post was to point out that it is not logically impossible to make the argument that the Sedin's do not have what it takes. I fully agree with you, they probably do have what it takes, but I can only point to evidence that suggests it, not proves it. Therefore the other side of the coin can be construed logically. It would be illogical to argue that they don't have what it takes simply because they are European, or because they don't have the skill or endurance. If you are going to say that my original argument is stupid, lacks thought or ignores all powers of observation, then go right ahead, but I don't think you'll find many rational supporters that can seriously say that I'm "pretty fucking stupid". It's not a stupid argument if it is put together empirically or objectively. That was my original point.

The only question-mark left in my mind regarding the Sedin's is, as I said, whether or not they have the "edge" to lead the team to absolute victory. Keith may have just done Canuckdom a favor tonight by drilling it into them with his elbow.
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Meds » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:16 pm

coco_canuck wrote:
mathonwy wrote:Sure beats doing real work. :) :) :)

So, who here is actually accomplishing anything at work these days? lol.


:lol:

I had to abandon this discussion for a few hours to wrap up work in order to watch the game live instead of on DVR.

So, yes, I did get some work done in between debating hockey.....kinda like a little coffee with your sugar....


Is that kinda like the Sedin's abandoning the team just so they can play their cycle game even when it's not working?

Friggen useless sonsov......

:look:

I jest.

:P
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby coco_canuck » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:42 pm

Meds wrote:Nobody said it is impossible.


You certainly didn't, but those who said they can't do it, and never had it in them to do it believe it's an impossibility, and that's what my original comment was directed at.

Meds wrote:The point of my original reply to your post was to point out that it is not logically impossible to make the argument that the Sedin's do not have what it takes. I fully agree with you, they probably do have what it takes, but I can only point to evidence that suggests it, not proves it. Therefore the other side of the coin can be construed logically. It would be illogical to argue that they don't have what it takes simply because they are European, or because they don't have the skill or endurance. If you are going to say that my original argument is stupid, lacks thought or ignores all powers of observation, then go right ahead, but I don't think you'll find many rational supporters that can seriously say that I'm "pretty fucking stupid". It's not a stupid argument if it is put together empirically or objectively. That was my original point.


Not at all.

I've enjoyed this debate.

My initial comment was directed at the more irrational form of argumentation and bias that's used against the Sedins, specifically with those who are convinced they cannot in any conceivable way win the cup.

With it came some bravado and a polarizing statement.

Tis' the looseness of a "goddamn internet hockey message board."

What we just did, was engage in a debate about the potential likelihood of the Twins getting it done. You've made a sound argument.

Meds wrote:The only question-mark left in my mind regarding the Sedin's is, as I said, whether or not they have the "edge" to lead the team to absolute victory. Keith may have just done Canuckdom a favor tonight by drilling it into them with his elbow.


This has the feel of a major turning point...my only hope is that Daniel will be ok, and by ok I mean he doesn't miss more than 2-3 weeks.
Last edited by coco_canuck on Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby coco_canuck » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:44 pm

Meds wrote:Is that kinda like the Sedin's abandoning the team just so they can play their cycle game even when it's not working?

Friggen useless sonsov......

:look:

I jest.

:P


We all have our peculiar insanities.

:look:
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby porp » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:10 pm

Meds wrote:The only question-mark left in my mind regarding the Sedin's is, as I said, whether or not they have the "edge" to lead the team to absolute victory. Keith may have just done Canuckdom a favor tonight by drilling it into them with his elbow.


Well said; although I'd rather discuss this further when it comes to whether the Sedins *really* helped the team win-it-all, in a few months.
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Meds » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm

porp wrote:
Meds wrote:The only question-mark left in my mind regarding the Sedin's is, as I said, whether or not they have the "edge" to lead the team to absolute victory. Keith may have just done Canuckdom a favor tonight by drilling it into them with his elbow.


Well said; although I'd rather discuss this further when it comes to whether the Sedins *really* helped the team win-it-all, in a few months.


Unfortunately, with the role that the Sedin's play on this team, the Canucks will not be winning a Stanley Cup without their help. Even a partial contribution from them would likely have meant a win rather than a loss in the finals.
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Meds » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:04 pm

http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=623268

“I’m not scared of flying, I’m scared of crashing, that’s my problem,” he laughed, again being incredibly serious.

It wasn’t always like this for Henrik, he remembers a time when he was as worry free as anyone else on board. Then, roughly seven years ago, he was on one of the worst flights he can remember and he began over thinking things.


Just what we need. A captain and first line center who over-thinks stuff and lets it get into his head.

Shit. :|
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Per » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:22 am

Meds wrote:
porp wrote:
Meds wrote:The only question-mark left in my mind regarding the Sedin's is, as I said, whether or not they have the "edge" to lead the team to absolute victory. Keith may have just done Canuckdom a favor tonight by drilling it into them with his elbow.


Well said; although I'd rather discuss this further when it comes to whether the Sedins *really* helped the team win-it-all, in a few months.


Unfortunately, with the role that the Sedin's play on this team, the Canucks will not be winning a Stanley Cup without their help. Even a partial contribution from them would likely have meant a win rather than a loss in the finals.

You mean like scoring the game tying goal and assisting on the overtime game winner, like Daniel did in game two against Boston?

Looking at Canucks scoring in the final is a rather strange experience. First of all, there was so little of it, only eight goals spread over seven games, you need a microscope. And then when you finally find it, this is the Canucks scoring chart for the finals against Boston last year:

Player G A TP
Daniel.. 1 3 4
Burrows 2 1 3
Lapdog 2 1 3
Torres. 1 2 3
Hansen 1 2 3
Edler... 0 2 2
Henrik. 1 0 1
Kesler.. 0 1 1
Higgins 0 1 1
Salo.... 0 1 1
Bieksa. 0 1 1
Ehrhoff 0 1 1

Daniel topping the chart, followed by Burrows seems fairly reasonable, but then third through fifth place: Lapdog, Torres and Hansen - wow! :wow:

All in all, I think Luo was one of the few players who actually did show up, and then not in every game. :(
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Farhan Lalji » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:17 am

Uggggh.

One favor guys - I'm enjoying reading this thread as much as the next guy, but is it ok if we refrain ourselves from analyzing or revisiting the series against Boston last year?

Ps ---------- And to the guys who are stating that the Canucks didn't show up to Game 7 last spring, check the stats. The Canucks out hit and out shot Boston by a very wide margin, and it didn't have anything to do with Boston having far more puck possession (they didn't....it was even) or the Canucks simply stacking tons of shots in the 3rd while Boston was playing shutdown hockey (shots evenly distributed).

The Canucks were definitely raped in games 3,4, and 6, but Game 7 was lost due to a coin flip. Both teams had great opportunities, but Boston just managed to capitalize on their's..........kind of like we did on January 7th when we beat Boston and derailed their season.
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Nuckertuzzi » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:27 pm

A little late to the party on this one but it is an intriguing topic for me because this has been on my mind for a while..even long before the slump.

I don't know if it's just a Canuck thing but I find that late bloomer superstars generally have a shorter window of dominance and tend to decline earlier in their careers than the true career superstar. After watching guys like Bertuzzi and Naslund reach elite status in their mid to late 20's and then completely fall off the map barely into their 30's, I couldn't help but wonder if the Sedins, who've taken similar paths so far, are destined for the same fate now that they're on the other side of 30. Of course I'm generalizing and basing it on a couple of examples that could be no more than mere coincidence. But while their recent slump may not be an indication that it's happening now, it could be a sign that it might be on the horizon.

Right now I'm not ready to declare that just yet because there have been too many factors this year to indicate their recent drop off in play may not be a career trend...

1. Physical, mental and emotional fatique. When you combine the long emotional run last year, the ridiculous schedule with so many condensed eastern road trips, the lack of an all-star break, and the amount of games going to shootout, it's safe to say no forwards have played more hockey in the past calendar year than them. For me it's more mental fatigue than anything..there's no bigger crutch for creative players than to not be mentally sharp.

2. Lack of power-plays. We all know their game is built on the PP and while they're not exactly nothing without the PP, they simply aren't as impactful. Many games since Xmas they look like they're lost waiting for the PP that rarely comes.

3. Regressing game. Thanks to the lack of PP's the officials are clearly slowing the game down again allowing clutch and grab to re-enter the game. They haven't had to fight off as many muggings since earlier in their careers.

4. No Ehrhoff. Say what you will about him but nobody benefitted more than the Sedins from his ability to move the puck up ice and man the point. That skill from the back end has been missed, no doubt about it.


If things fall short for us this year, maybe the best thing for a good run next year is an early exit so that they can use the entire summer to reset, refocus and get their conditioning back to the high level we're used to seeing from them. If that happens and they still struggle next year, then we might be talking about a decline. I'm not there just yet.

...of course the best way to dispel it (providing Danny returns) is for them to take the team straight to the end and hoist this year.
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:05 pm

The Sedins didn't look very good when they were playing together, just before Daniel got hurt. Now that Dank is out, Hank has gone red hot with his new linemates. When Danny comes back, AV might want to try splitting the Sedins to see if it can spread out the scoring; maybe Dank can get the Kes line going. And Boy, I didn't think it was a good idea to put Lap-Dawg on that 1st line, but he's now looking like the next Guy Lafleur. We have seen guys post some good numbers when they're first playing with the Sedins, but it usually doesn't last too long (ie - king, bitz, raymond, etc). If Hank can boost the numbers of a guy like Lap-Dawg long term, I think Hank may still be on the top of his game.

If Lap-Dawg can become our version of a john druce/fernando pisani, a role player who becomes red hot and pots in a lot of goals for us in the playoffs, it'll really help us go a long way.
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Re: Are the Sedins on the Decline?

Postby Topper » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:29 am

I get the feeling Meds doesn't understand most of the words he types, is sitting there with a thesaurus and a dictionary.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
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