OK, So What I have been told

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dhabums
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by dhabums »

coco_canuck wrote:
Mondi wrote: I'm a big Schneider fan, and I'm all for keeping Schneids over Luo long-term, but Schneider has proved fuck all in the playoffs and, as much as I like him, he's yet to prove he can handle the full-time starting job that comes with a lot of peaks and valleys.
Ginger proved he couldn't get half way through a playoff game and had two huge brainfarts that results in goal against.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by dbr »

Mondi wrote:Schneider has pretty much proven he can produce 30 to 40 wins if he was given the ball to run with.
Putting aside the fact the Cory doesn't even have 40 career wins (he set a career high in Dallas with his 17th victory of the season), if we are going to go with "pretty much proven" then it's tough not to say that Luongo hasn't "pretty much proven" he can win a Stanley Cup given he got 15 wins last year and the team in front of him fell apart in the finals.

Anyway on the top five vs. top ten debate, I think what Luongo gives you is a player that many years is inside the top five, some years is in the top three and others is a little outside the top ten. Essentially at the start of the year if you're putting money on a goaltender to put up a top five performance he's one of three or four guys (Lundqvist, Miller, Thomas.. ?) who has a realistic shot to give you that almost every year. Lots of others do it once, or maybe they do it twice in five seasons or something, but are not perennially great goaltenders.

Is he the goaltender for this franchise going forward? Is he going to win a Cup as a Canuck (or at all)? Who knows. Nobody is really saying yes to that, nobody is saying he doesn't have warts, nobody is saying anything like that really.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by ESQ »

I've posted this numerous times, and even though nobody is agreeing with Mondi here, I'll say it again:

Luongo is the best goalie since the lockout. Not top 10, not top 5, but number 1. The only two goalies who consistently are as good or better than Luongo in any important stat are Lundqvist for regular season play, though he hasn't been good in the playoffs, and Fleury for post-season play, though his regular season numbers have been quite bad.

The perfect example of the kind of goalie Mondi is talking about is Antti Niemi. He got hot as a rookie, and now has a Cup.

Nobody would say Niemi won the Cup, and he probably wasn't even top 5 on an absolutely stacked, peaking, red-hot Blackhawks team. But he has a Cup.

So my question is: would anybody take Niemi over Luongo? For this postseason? For next season? For the season after? Niemi has taken a Sharks team that is improved defensively on paper, and taken them to a death-match for 8th seed. His career has progressed steadily downward since the 09/10 season.

Actually never mind the Niemi comparison, Mondi's Jose Theodore is even better, if about 8 years too late.

Will Schneider be a good goalie? Almost certainly. But let's not kid ourselves, he'll be lucky to have as much success, regular season and post season, as Roberto Luongo. And if anybody wants to hitch this team's fortunes to the ability of a Niemi or Theodore, you clearly don't remember the Cloutier and pre-Cloutier years.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

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Mondi wrote: You're turning my arguments into straw men.
I think it's more a case of your straw men being set ablaze.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by Meds »

When saying that Schneider is going to surpass Luongo's resume, people often forget that Lou holds the NHL all-time record for saves in a single season.

Bottom line is that Louie IS a proven puck stopper.

The other bottom line is that he also has shown a tendancy towards falling apart and staying apart early on in games.

Schneider, to date, has not shown that tendancy, but Schneider also 64 career games to Luongo's 723.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by coco_canuck »

Mondi wrote: You're turning my arguments into straw men. Which suggests you either have no argument or it is so weak you have to change mine in order to be "correct".
Bullshit.

Show me how I'm turning your arguments into straw men.

These are things you've said:

"To argue he is still top 5 is futile."

"So what we should look at is (1) how Luongo is playing right now and (2) how he has performed historically under pressure. As those are the best indicators of how he might play in the playoffs."

"Anyways if you think Luongo is a top five player at his position, you're dreaming."


I've responded to each of those assertions.
Mondi wrote: Miller, Lundqvist, Rinne, Thomas, Fleury or Quick.
Here's you're desired response to the better players you've mentioned.

Since I assumed you knew the histories, or would care to perhaps look it up, I was expecting you to understand what I meant by saying "those other top goalies have also had inconsistencies."

Miller has been just as inconsistent as Luongo this season, if not worse, (Luongo has better stats), and Miller's last playoff game was in the first round vs Philly in game 7 where he was pulled after giving up 4 goals in 40 minutes. He pitched two shutouts that series, but gave up 5 goals in two other games along with that poor performance in game 7.

If you actually followed Miller closely, you'd know that he has the occasional off-year for his standards and has had some really poor playoff showings, in addition to the ones I've cited. Sounds like Luongo no?

Lundqvist is having a fantastic regular season, but he's yet to make it out of the 2nd round of the playoffs in 5 appearances and has had 3 first round exits. In those playoff performances, he's had some poor showings.

Rinne is also having a great season, but overall he's been average in his two playoff appearances.

Tim Thomas is a cup winner who put on one of the best goaltending performances we've seen in the cup final. This year however, his regular season hasn't been great, similar to Luongo's, and previous to last season he was oft maligned for some poor playoff performances and losing his starting job to Rask.

Fleury is having a solid regular season and he's won a cup, but he's also a goalie who has had some atrocious playoff performances that you should look up.

Quick has been lights out this year, but his two playoff appearances, two first round exits, have been laughable at best.

So let's recap to make sure you're staying with me and that I'm not making a straw man argument:

You said it's "futile" to say Luongo is a top 5 goalie, and you said you're looking at how a goalie is "currently playing" and his "playoff history."

So based on that, Miller can be easily challenged by virtue of his strong similarity to Luongo currently and historically.

Quick can also be easily challenged due to Luongo's far superior playoff performances and experience.

That's two of the six you mentioned, which means Luongo can quite easily fit into your top five equation.

Is that a clear and direct enough, or do you want to hide behind another desperate straw man claim?
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by Per »

Mondi wrote: So what we should look at is (1) how Luongo is playing right now and (2) how he has performed historically under pressure. As those are the best indicators of how he might play in the playoffs.

And what do we see? A decent, but not great regular season this year (evidenced by Jose Theodore outperforming him) and a history of cracking under pressure in the biggest games, mixed with some (but far fewer) virtuoso performances.
(1) Based on how Luongo played last night, there's no goalie in the league that's better. :look:

(2) Cracking under pressure in the biggest games, eh? And yet somehow this two time Olympian and 2010/11 Jennings winner has managed to amass one Olympic gold medal, two world championship golds, a world cup gold and two QMJHL championship titles. Not to mention that he brought his team to game seven of the Stanley Cup final last season.

I'm not sure I'd rank him as top five this season, but I wouldn't consider it a futile argument.

Definitely top ten, possibly top five.

There are pretty good arguments both ways. Neither position should be considered futile imho.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by Per »

Mondi wrote: You, and the others, act as if what I say is completely unfounded but there are plenty of commentators, fans and players (i.e. wasn't Luongo top 5 overrated in the players poll?) who agree.
Well, I guess he was (4th, 6%) but Vancouver "won" as the most overrated team with 24% of the vote... :shock:
He also made first place in 2011, when the question was slightly different put:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/allstar ... -score-on/

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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by coco_canuck »

Mondi wrote: Players with "inconsistencies" can oftentimes be attributed to playing for bad team. It is not as simple as looking at Ryan Miller's playoff record (and stats) and/or his slow start this season. The guy plays for the Sabres, he can only do so much and, let's face it, it has been a lot. Up until this year the a lot of that could apply to Lundqvist, Rinne and even Halak.
Oh, you mean the same Sabres that won the Presidents Trophy in 2007 and had a 110 point season in 2006?
Mondi wrote: Of course, you haven't even mentioned Luongo's history slow of starts and notorious inconsistencies during the past few seasons. Nor have you acknowledged the only time Luongo has given up 7+ goals in a game, ever in his NHL career, was during a playoff game.
duh, I did say that Luongo's inconsistencies aren't unlike other goalies.

Miller once gave up 6 goals in a playoff game. But giving up 8 is so much worse and damning right?

If a goalie is poor and gives up 4-5 goals in a game and loses it's not as damning?

So then being poor and losing on a few occasions in crucial games and being very poor and losing on a few occasions in crucial games makes that much of a difference to you?

If you look at the ebbs and flows of regular seasons, you'll notice every single goalie has a poor month or two where their numbers are similar to Luongo's in October. The slow start is great fodder, but it's hardly dissimilar to what other goalies go through at perhaps different points of the season.
Mondi wrote: I'm not so sure why it makes you angry and indignant that I don't think Luongo is a top five goalie in the league. But, at the end of the day, this a subjective argument which neither of us can win. You, and the others, act as if what I say is completely unfounded but there are plenty of commentators, fans and players (i.e. wasn't Luongo top 5 overrated in the players poll?) who agree. Listen Luongo is a fine player and at times he's been top 2 or 3 in the league. Right now I think there are at least 5 goalies I'd rather have.
I'm not angry and you're back-peddling.

You're the one who said it's "futile" to say Luongo is a top 5 goalie, you said that I'm "dreaming," and you said you judge a goalie on his "current play" and "playoff history."

You said I'm using a straw man argument.

I've either argued against those points or used the same criteria against other goalies, and now you're making subtle ad hominem jabs by saying that I'm responding on emotion and ignoring facts.

Sorry Mondi, but your responses have been weak and now you're scaling back your exhaustive claims and making it seem like I'm being unreasonable in how I'm arguing against your seemingly fluid notions.

Like I said earlier, there are obvious flaws and inconsistencies in what we've seen from your series of posts in this discussion.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by damonberryman »

Roberto has been a great to good tender. I think goalie is one postion you have to take the whole career into consideration. His physical skills are that of a number 1 tender. If he had the mental approach of Rinne or Thomas he would be hands down the best. He made a save on a deflection by Kopitar last night that demonstrated great reflexes. He still has them and will for a while. His achilles heal is his mental approach and this is where coaching and management need to get creative.

There is a lot of money invested in Lou and our team needs to find a way to help him with his mental prep before each game. He needs to not get too high or go too low as he gets off his game with either type of emotion. If he can stay in his zone and let his skill lead there is no one better.

If indeed he is having relational problems and they throw him off his game then the club needs to do whatever they have to do in order for him to be ok or in order for them to use Ginger when they know he is not good mentally.

About Raymond I am not as sure as some regarding getting rid of him. I keep waiting for him to break out and this season early on I thought he was going to do that very thing. Instead he went back to the perimeter player he was. His speed creates so many chances it surprises me he does not get more assists. I say assists rather than goals because he is not a natural sniper but his passing is ok and I cannot help but wonder if he would do better in center? Maybe not with this club but I think someone is going to benefit by having him and right now despite all the critics he is still a very good PK and responsible in the D zone. His dash down the wing needs to be utilized to get more scoring chances.

Anyhow, I sure want to win this thing one day.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by ESQ »

Mondi wrote: We all know hockey is team game, so you win as a team and lose as a team.
I agree with Coco's breakdown of the other top goalies. I also follow the position closely around the league because of fantasy hockey, and Coco is spot on.

Miller is a great example of what happens when a team that relies on a star goalie (like the Canucks do) has a goalie melt down. Miller this year is demonstrating what a true "off year" is, and even though he's turned it around, the Sabres are probably going to miss the playoffs a year after adding several key upgrades. Prior to February, Miller was a sub-.900 goalie. Canucks' fans definition of Luongo's "off-year" has the Canucks within 2 points of 1st overall. Just a little perspective.

If you want to talk about slow starts, that takes Kipper and Miller. I'd rather that than Thomas and Lundqvist saving their worst for last.

Quick benefits from a defense-first system, but as Coco said, he hasn't been able to carry his team in the playoffs, or "win a series where he wasn't the favourite".

Thomas is stringing together back-to-back seasons for the first time in his career. Two years ago if it isn't for Raask, Boston doesn't make the playoffs. But Thomas' legacy will be putting on one of the greatest performances in recent playoff history, not only winning the Conn Smythe but breaking MacLean's 17 year old records in the process. He won that cup for Boston, unfortunately nobody on the Canucks was able to win it for us, but Luongo probably came the closest and was the series MVP for the Canucks.

Lundqvist is the only goalie I'd rather have than Luongo, and that's just because of age. Rinne I wouldn't make up my mind on until I see what he does this post-season. Rinne has appeared great, but he's playing behind two of the best defensemen in the game, with what is generally considered the best D-corps for the past several years.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by coco_canuck »

ESQ wrote: Lundqvist is the only goalie I'd rather have than Luongo, and that's just because of age. Rinne I wouldn't make up my mind on until I see what he does this post-season. Rinne has appeared great, but he's playing behind two of the best defensemen in the game, with what is generally considered the best D-corps for the past several years.
I would be fine with interchanging Lundqvist, Miller, Rinne, Thomas and Luongo. An argument can easily be made that Fleury also belongs in that grouping. Kipper may be a victim of playing on a poor team more than anything, but the last 4 times he's made the playoffs his team has exited in the 1st round, including the year they won the NW division, and his last two playoff appearances have been notably poor.

Carey Price has really elevated his game after his issues a couple of years ago and he looks poised to consistently be in the top 5 discussion.

You can put Quick and Howard in Price's class, but neither has been overly impressive in any playoff series to date.

Netminders like Rask and Schneider have extremely high potential, but until they prove something substantial as starting goalies, it's difficult to legitimately consider them in the top 5.

Halak doesn't have an extensive resume as a starter and he's been plagued by significant inconsistencies as an NHL goalie, and he's yet to even win 30 games in a season. Based on his one playoff run and impressive numbers so far this season, it's hardly a stretch to say he can perform very well for the Blues in the post-season, but again he hasn't done enough to be considered as a top 5 guy quite yet.

Now, I'm not disparaging any of these goalies, and quite clearly they're all #1s that have solid to great abilities, and it would not surprise me if any of them lead their teams deep in the playoffs over the next few years. But an objective and thorough analysis of a combination of factors and histories that account this season, career and playoff experiences, invariably places Luongo in the top 5 goalie category...and at the very least, he's in the group of 5-7 goalies that can be interchanged in that top 5 list.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by donlever »

Obviously when he is "on his game" there is no argument to be made.

Easily he achieves top grouping status.

The last 3 games he has found his niche.

The save on the Kopitar tip last night was stellar!

We see Roberto all the time. Other goalies we see only sporadically. I mean what is a reasonable number? I've personally seen some of the netminders mentioned 6-10 times this year.

How can we make a comparison with such a small sample size?

Everyone has shitty runs and everyone lets in their share of bad goals.

My argument about Roberto has never been about that but rather other symptoms entirely. I'm not bringing any of that up because, honestly, I don't really give enough of a shit to beat the Roberto drum over and over (and over) again.

He's here, clearly he can be absolutely fucking great.

Let's hope that is the guy we see starting a couple of weeks from now.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by Cornuck »

What's that saying? "Goalie Graveyard"? ;)

Does it really matter whether or not Luongo is Top "5" or Top "7"? He will be defined by one thing in Vancouver at the end of his tenure: Did he win a Cup for Vancouver? Anything else is just filler.
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Re: OK, So What I have been told

Post by wafflecombine »

I have to agree with you Cornuck. Even if Lou plays like a machine, gets Con Smythe and leads us to the cup, the next day there will be people saying "its the perfect time to trade Lou".

"Top of his game"
"Ginger is younger and the future"
"Think of how many pucks in a bag we will get for Lou".

Bottom line is that Lou and his team control their own destiny. I personally am excited for the playoff, wishing like hell Danny wasn't concussed and happy to see some signs of passion and life from the team.

And we are two point out of top spot with 6ish games left.

Not bad in my books.
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