BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby DavidPratt_ » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:08 pm

mathonwy wrote:You still haven't shown me why Brian Burke is a sham.

REALLY? DOESN'T HIS RECORD AFTER NEARLY FOUR YEARS IN TORONTO WITH NO PLAYOFF ACTIVITY IN SIGHT SAY SOMETHING?

He's an attention whore, he's an ego maniac and he's offends the shit out of the media but these things don't make him a sham.

YES HE IS

Your post just seems like the continuation of a hate crusade you got for Burke instead of an objective analysis.

I DON'T REALLY LIKE HIM, BUT FACTS ARE FACTS

Anaheim - You're discrediting Burke for winning the Stanley Cup because he inherited a good team and you imply that anyone could have won it with Anaheim's roster at that point of time but Burke was in the right place right time and "lucked" into some good trades. Come on man. If it was that easy, everyone would be winning a SC.

I ACKNOWLEDGED THAT BURKE ADDED THE FINAL PIECES. WITHOUT PRONGER AND NIEDERMAYER, THAT CUP TEAM IN 2007 MAY NOT HAVE WON IT ALL. THEN AGAIN, WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY IS BURKE IS FINE WITH THE 'FINISHING TOUCHES' BUT THE REAL BRAINPOWER OF BUILDING A TEAM WITH A REAL PLAN AND STRATEGY THAT IS CONSISTENTLY COMPETITIVE (THINK DETROIT) FUELED WITHOUT EGO BUT WITH CAREFUL PLANNING, PATIENCE AND A FOCUS ON SYSTEMS AND DRAFTING IS NOT HIS FORTE. SO, HAVING SAID THAT, RE-BUILDING THE LEAFS WITH BRIAN BURKE AT THE HELM IS A PATH TO DISASTER. AFTER NEARLY FOUR SEASONS....I REST MY CASE.

Vancouver - You're discrediting Burke for not going out and getting a goaltender. I can't really comment on this one as I can't remember what options were available to us at that point of time. Cloutier was bad in the playoffs but he did win 30+ games for us in three consecutive season. Do we blame "we choked" on Brian Burke as well?

HE DIDN'T REALLY GET ANOTHER TOP-FLIGHT GOALTENDER. YEAR AFTER YEAR, CLOUTIER WOULD LET IN BAD GOALS AND FALL APART. THAT'S OK IF YOU'RE LUCKY TO BE IN THE PLAYOFFS. NOT GOOD IF YOU HAVE JOVO, BERTUZZI, NASLUND, MORRISON, ETC. AT YOUR DISPOSAL WITH BAD GOALTENDING. LOOK AT MIKE GILLIS. WHY HASN'T HE TRADED CORY SCHNEIDER? IF LUONGO CHOKES, MIKE GILLIS AND ALAIN VIGNEAULT WILL PUT SCHNEIDER IN. THEY'VE LEARNED THEIR LESSON. WHO ELSE DID BURKE BRING IN TO CHALLENGE CLOUTIER? ALEX AULD? JOHAN HEDBERG? NEITHER ONE OF THOSE GUYS WAS A STANLEY CUP GOALIE.


Toronto - You're discrediting Burke for not being in touch with how the modern player should be coached. Up until 7 or 8 games ago, Toronto was in a playoff position and had been in there for the majority of the season. Then the goaltenders forgot how to goaltend and it was a downward spiral after that.

GUSTAVSSON HAS BEEN INCONSISTENT FOR THE PAST THREE SEASONS. JAMES REIMER WAS PLAYING IN THE ECHL 2 SEASONS AGO. DO YOU THINK BRIAN WOULD HAVE HAD THE FORSIGHT TO DO SOMETHING IN THE OFF SEASON LAST YEAR? HELL, IF I WAS HIM, I WOULD HAVE PICKED UP BEN BISHOP FROM ST.LOUIS INSTEAD OF OTTAWA. WHAT ABOUT JOSH HARDING FROM MINNESOTA? WITH GUSTAVSSON AND REIMER IN GOAL, UNLESS BURKE CALLS UP A GOALIE FROM THE MARLIES, THE LEAFS ARE DOOMED.


You're quoting Kevin Lowe to support your argument because we all know Lowe is the most objective and unbiased fan of Burke... :crazy: Are you going to quote Don Cherry next time?

KEVIN LOWE WAS RESPONDING TO BURKE'S ATTACKS ON HIM 4 YEARS AGO AFTER BURKE WAS CRITICAL OF SOME OF LOWE'S FREE-AGENT SIGNINGS. KEVIN LOWE IS NOT A MANAGERIAL GENIUS EITHER, BUT A LOT OF WHAT HE SAYS HAS SOME TRUTH TO IT. BURKE DID BUILD UP A BAD CANUCKS TEAM BUT HAD SOME ASSETS IN BERTUZZI AND NASLUND ALREADY IN PLACE. HE DRAFTED POORLY, DIDN'T DEVELOP SOME OF THE PLAYERS THEY DRAFTED AND IT SHOWED. BURKE GOT LUCKY IN ANAHEIM BUT DID ADD SOME OF THE MISSING PIECES. GOOD ON HIM FOR DOING THAT. HE DID WIN A CUP.

THE TRUTH IS - WHEN HE HAS HAD TO DO IT ALL ON HIS OWN, NO INHERITING COREY PERRY OR RYAN GETZLAF, NO INHERITING TODD BERTUZZI OR MARKUS NASLUND, JUST THE 'SAVIOUR' OF THE LEAFS....AFTER NEARLY FOURS SEASONS...TO QUOTE A LITTLE OLD LADY SPEAKING DURING AN OLD WENDY'S HAMBUGER COMMERCIAL....'WHERE'S THE BEEF?'



Coaching philosophy.. Yes. Bylsma is part of the new generation of coaches that seems to be enjoying quite a lot of success. There's Bylsma and there's Arniel and Payne. Arniel and Payne are both part of the younger generation of coaches that couldn't get it done and were subsequently fired and replaced with arguably older generation guys. Hitch is old school and Richards is just a temp.


PLAYERS HAVE CHANGED. KEN HITCHCOCK HAS ACKNOWLEDGED HE HAS HAD TO CHANGE HIS STYLE OF COACHING IN ST.LOUIS. MARC CRAWFORD ACKNOWLEDGED THAT IN DALLAS. READING BURKE'S COMMENTS TELLS ME HE IS OUT OF TOUCH.

Re: Firing Mike Babcock. This isn't the first time you've said this.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 34,1125831

There's quite a big difference between firing and not extending. Geezes man.

Sooooo.... Brian Burke is a sham. Blah blah blah. You're like the Wizard of Oz. One pulls away the curtains and there's not much substance.

NOPE. JUST HAVE A LOT OF FACTS TO BACK UP WHAT I SAY. AND FINALLY....IF BURKE IS SO GREAT...

HOW MANY PLAYOFF GAMES HAVE THE LEAFS PLAYED SINCE HE TOOK OVER NEARLY FOUR SEASONS AGO?

THAT'S RIGHT. I REST MY CASE BUB.

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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby dhabums » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:39 pm

I will always be a fan of Burke's absolute inability to grasp the importance of a goalie.
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby wienerdog » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:42 pm

Calling Burke a "sham" is completely out to fucking lunch, IMO. Burke might be many things, but a sham isn't one of them.

Discredit the moves he made in Anaheim all you want, but you can't flush Burke down the toilet as a sham, unless you want to do exactly the same thing with Gillis here in Vancouver. Both men walked into very similar situations: a very strong core upon which to build that was left behind by his predecessor. The difference so far is that Burke actually won the mug with his crack at bat.

For the record, I like MG a whole lot more than BB as a GM (AINEC), but it's not like Burke rolled into the Ducks head-office, put his crew and autopilot and sat back and drank Old Fashioneds while he watched the team chug on to an inevitable Cup win.

Despite inheriting what he got, he did deal for Pronger and Neids. Those two are pretty fucking huge pieces of what made the Ducks a Cup-winning team. They don't win shit without either guy, IMO. He also flushed Fedorov, which is a move that didn't get enough credit.

Burke also manged to pilot this team in Vancouver out of some pretty dark fucking days indeed. Goalie problems - among other things - prevented us from ever having any success here, admitted. That was very short-sighted of him. But he did engineer what may now be regarded as the single biggest coup at the draft table in the last two decades: landing both Sedins.

Burke certainly has some mortal character flaws, to be sure, and they are costing him right now. He is a classic "always deal from a position of strength" bully type, but BB's major issue is that he doesn't have anything of strength to use in TO. That franchise is fucked.

So, I think he's done a middling job with a franchise that was in utter ruins - the Kessel deal really fucked them bad, and that was all about BB's ego. But other than that, he's made some lemonade and I'd still rather have him at the helm of my team than Tambellini, for example.

So yeah, I've got a definition issue here.

If you want a reference point, Doug MacLean is a "sham". He destroyed the Jackets. That man had no business being at the helm of an NHL franchise.

BB is an asshole, a bully, a blowhard. But he's not a sham.
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby ESQ » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:29 pm

wienerdog wrote:If you want a reference point, Doug MacLean is a "sham". He destroyed the Jackets. That man had no business being at the helm of an NHL franchise.

BB is an asshole, a bully, a blowhard. But he's not a sham.

Hm ok, interesting comparison.

Columbus' record under Doug Maclean was 172–258–62 from 2000/01 to 2006/07. In spite of being an expansion team, he only had three top-5 picks, and two of those were 4th overalls. He had an incredible knack of drafting players exactly where they were expected to go, but all of them flopping. He had a combination of poor scouting and poor developing.

The leafs record since Burke became GM (including all of the 08-09 season) is 131-135-45. Burke took over an Original 6 franchise, with the second-most cup wins in the NHL, and has finished above .500 once in 3 years. Maclean never finished above .500, but did make it to 3rd in the Central once.

Maclean had a winning percentage of 34%, while Burkes is 42%.

When you take into account the expansion years for Maclean, I would say the two are fairly comparable for the quality of the on-ice product, with Burke getting a slight edge. Something Maclean and Burke have in common is both have shown an inability to improve any aspect of their franchise - drafting, developing, or win-loss record.
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby mathonwy » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:54 pm

Ok.. for ESQ and Pratt boy.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sham

1sham noun \ˈsham\

Definition of SHAM

1 : a trick that deludes : hoax <feared that the deal was a sham>
2 : cheap falseness : hypocrisy <saw through the hollowness, the sham, the silliness of the empty pageant — Oscar Wilde>
3 : an ornamental covering for a pillow
4 : an imitation or counterfeit purporting to be genuine
5 : a person who shams

-

Are you honestly trying to convince me, you, the world, that Brian Burke is an imitation General Manager. That he has in fact tricked everyone in the NHL into thinking that he's a General Manager when in fact he is not.

Seriously? Man, I think you guys are way too focused on Burkie's mistakes and not giving him enough credit for the things that he's done properly. I also think that your view point has been skewed by his character flaws and how the media portrays him.

He is one of the most decisive general managers in the NHL. Yeah, his ego handicaps him from time to time and causes him to make bad / emotional decisions. But, he's willing to put himself in the captain seat, in the biggest hockey market in the world. If you're a sham general manager, you don't do that and THAT my friends, is a fact.

There is no need to dispute this issue anymore. Those that don't like him, will probably never like him. I neither like him or dislike him but I do respect him a tonne.
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby wienerdog » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:50 pm

For the record, I dislike the way BB carries himself publically. It's what prevents him from being a better GM. Like I said - asshole, bully, etc. Those are fair game.

Sham is nothing short of ridiculous.

Using the logic that he's a sham b/c the Leafs specifically haven't made the playoffs is like saying Naslund is a "sham" of a hockey player because he never produced in the post-season, or was a "choker". It's weak reasoning, IMO.

Also for the record, I'm not sure I'd dislike the man as a person either. The way he handled his son's death, for example, shows me he may have a big heart behind the scenes.

Pratt has let what should have remained a purely professionsal tussle get inappropriately personal. Time to let it go.
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby Fred » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:31 pm

IMO there one thing as sure as God made little apples if he doesn't make progress next season he's toast. Other teams have re tooled and it doesn't take 4 years. You can't just keep going on and one with this little success. It wouldn't work in my profession or any one else either.

When he give the picks up for Kessel a player Boston didn't want ( as I understand because his personality just doesn't fit hockey as a sport.) Then to loose out on the Richards sweep stake and end up with yet another deadbeat Connolly, wow and that's to say nothing about Phaneuf a man that make elementary errors en masse. ( the best thing that can happen to Schenn is get the Hell out of there) Without the first round picks he set the Leafs future back 2 maybe 3 years before the draft picks become genuine NHL players. Now he's reversed his theory of picking up FA and going back to drafting....he's thankfully wasting the Leafs future. I wrote on another site that Riemer would be rushed rather than developed and wasted and it looks like it's well down that patch ( compare how Schneider was handled )

And I like the guy but you have to think the story doesn't look good at this time. Which I'm enjoying :D
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby Strangelove » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:28 pm

mathonwy wrote:5 : a person who shams


Hmmm one could say El Burko is a sham when one considers the fact he promised Team Pugnacity, Testosterone, Truculence, and Belligerence.... and delivered Team Weinie. :mrgreen:

Also Burkie was promising to turn the Leaves into a playoff team in short order.

El Shamo.

He was milking his success in Anaheim to the TO media/fans, suggesting he could do the same there.

I'm one of those who chalks his success in Anaheim up to the luck of the Irish.

He inherited a great team, as others have pointed out.

Then immediately Scott Neidermayer falls into his lap!! Newly UFA Scott had been offered the cap-max salary of $7.8mil at the time by his long-time team the Devils, but told his agent to call Anaheim because he wanted to play with his brother Rob. TOTAL LUCK on Burkie's side, all he had to do was say yes to one of the top 2 defensemen in the league.

And then Pronger fell into his fat Irish lap! Pronger had demanded a trade outta Edmonton and the Ducks had the kind of young players & picks the Oil was looking for (it takes Burkie a few years to deplete the cupboards ;) ). Lupul, Smid, 2007 1st, 2008 1st, and a 2008 2nd (one of those picks turned into Eberle, don't know about the others).

Yeah so Burkie kinda sucks as a GM when you discount his huge roll of luck in Anaheim.

And he DOES talk outta his ass a helluva lot (even for a lawyer).

I hope he remains the GM of the Leaves forever. :thumbs:
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby Strangelove » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:34 pm

mathonwy wrote:My dislike of that team is more about the center-of-the-universe mentality created by the media than about the actual team


Funny, El Burko figures HE is the center-of-the-universe. :lol:
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby DavidPratt_ » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:38 pm

OK - HOW ABOUT WHEN I SAY 'SHAM' I REALLY MEAN OVERRATED.

BECAUSE BRIAN IS OVERRATED. THE TORONTO EXPERIENCE PROVES IT.

PRATT OUT
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby Arachnid » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:45 pm

Looks at BB's Stanley Cup ring...

I feel sorry Double Penetration :(

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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby DavidPratt_ » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:49 pm

Arachnid wrote:I feel sorry Double Penetration :(



YOU FEEL SORRY FOR YOUR DOUBLE PENETRATION? DID IT HURT?

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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby dhabums » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:56 pm

DavidPratt_ wrote:OK - HOW ABOUT WHEN I SAY 'SHAM' I REALLY MEAN OVERRATED.

BECAUSE BRIAN IS OVERRATED. THE TORONTO EXPERIENCE PROVES IT.

PRATT OUT


That kind of changes the entire theme of the thread. Overrated by who?
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby Zamboni Driver » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:32 am

Strangelove wrote:
mathonwy wrote:5 : a person who shams


Hmmm one could say El Burko is a sham when one considers the fact he promised Team Pugnacity, Testosterone, Truculence, and Belligerence.... and delivered Team Weinie. :mrgreen:

Also Burkie was promising to turn the Leaves into a playoff team in short order.

El Shamo.

He was milking his success in Anaheim to the TO media/fans, suggesting he could do the same there.

I'm one of those who chalks his success in Anaheim up to the luck of the Irish.

He inherited a great team, as others have pointed out.

Then immediately Scott Neidermayer falls into his lap!! Newly UFA Scott had been offered the cap-max salary of $7.8mil at the time by his long-time team the Devils, but told his agent to call Anaheim because he wanted to play with his brother Rob. TOTAL LUCK on Burkie's side, all he had to do was say yes to one of the top 2 defensemen in the league.

And then Pronger fell into his fat Irish lap! Pronger had demanded a trade outta Edmonton and the Ducks had the kind of young players & picks the Oil was looking for (it takes Burkie a few years to deplete the cupboards ;) ). Lupul, Smid, 2007 1st, 2008 1st, and a 2008 2nd (one of those picks turned into Eberle, don't know about the others).

Yeah so Burkie kinda sucks as a GM when you discount his huge roll of luck in Anaheim.

And he DOES talk outta his ass a helluva lot (even for a lawyer).

I hope he remains the GM of the Leaves forever. :thumbs:

:mrgreen: Good post. Too bad we only get to beat down on the Laffs once a year. :twisted:
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Re: BRIAN BURKE'S TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Postby LotusBlossom » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:07 am

I see David is back and fighting the Burkie fight.

How I've missed putting your posts through an app that minimizes the usage of capital letters :P
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