Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schneider?

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Farhan Lalji

Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schneider?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:54 am

Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schneider?

Buy low sell high. Isn't that the old adage? So far this season, both Schneider and Hodgson have looked VERY impressive...impressive to the point where if packaged together, could probably fetch us an excellent return. So with that in mind, do you think it would be a wise decision on Gillis' part to trade them.....for "that one guy."

Personally - I would say 'no' at this point.....since I think Hodgson will develop into the player that we all expected (quite possibly sooner than we think?), while it's also a huge advantage having both Schneider and Luongo back there....especially if Luongo implodes again come playoff time. In a salary cap era, I think trading for "that one guy" is a little too risky...but that's just me.

Anyways - I was just wondering what you guys thought? I personally would keep Hodgson and Schneider right now, but we can't ignore the fact that the Canucks' window is NOW.....and that if we ever did have a shot at getting a guy like Zack Parise or whoever....then perhaps THIS would be the season to make that shit happen.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I also want to end this post with one final thought: Do you think the Canucks could survive with Schneider and Lack as a goaltending tandem? (i.e. The Canucks find a buyer for Luongo and decide to trade Luongo for ????).

wienerdog
CC 2nd Team All-Star
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:47 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by wienerdog » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:43 am

I'm guessing you haven't watched too many of the games yet this season, including tonight's.

Schneider's not going anywhere. At this point, he's is vital to keeping us competitive. Luongo is still miles off his game.

And with all our injuries up front, CoHo's not going anywhere either, unless it's for another forward to fill that slot.

So no.

dbr
CC Legend
Posts: 3050
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by dbr » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:37 am

The bottom line is, can this team replace these players with better players at the same or similar cap hits? Or is the team in a position where it is willing to make a trade that makes it worse right now?

The answer to both questions is a pretty firm "no" IMO.

Potatoe1
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1612
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:49 pm

dbr wrote:The bottom line is, can this team replace these players with better players at the same or similar cap hits? Or is the team in a position where it is willing to make a trade that makes it worse right now?

The answer to both questions is a pretty firm "no" IMO.
Agreed.

Hodgson and Schneider make a combined 2.5 mill. Given our cap situation I dont see how we would manage to bring back a player making any more then that.

Schneider flat out wins games for us and Cody has been above a 50 point pace since nov1, and contunues to trend up.

I don't see how you make the team any better by moving out 2 players who are vastly out producing their cap hit.

I guess the potential is there to package one or both up with Keith Ballard and bring in a more expensive player, but that's the only option I can see.

If the Canucks are going to make a "bold move" the time to do it will be at next years draft when they potentially have some cap space.

BTW, while we are on the subject of cap space, after watching Josh Gorges quite closely this season, he would absolutely be my no1 target in free agency next summer.

He's a grittier, though slightly less gifted version of Dan Hamhuis, and would look fantastic on Alex Edlers right side next season.

Born and raised in Kelowna BC.

dbr
CC Legend
Posts: 3050
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by dbr » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:17 pm

Gorges has been a real solid contributor for the Habs, I'd love him here - especially on the contracts they've managed to get him under - but I always figured they would eventually shell out to lock him up long term.

User avatar
herb
CC Legend
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by herb » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:51 pm

The answer has got to be no.

The window to win the Cup is now. Both players are playing important roles that cannot be replaced via organizational depth or trades.

Potatoe1
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1612
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Potatoe1 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:58 pm

dbr wrote:Gorges has been a real solid contributor for the Habs, I'd love him here - especially on the contracts they've managed to get him under - but I always figured they would eventually shell out to lock him up long term.
They might.

That said I have read that he wasn't thrilled over his contract situation last season and if the Habs keep losing he may look at his options come July.

If that happens you have to think Vancouver would be one of his top choices.

Elite team in his home province plus a long term opening next to a top notch defenseman (either Hamhuis or Edler).

Could be an ideal fit for both parties.

I really think Gorges age, character, skating, tenacity, and defensive aptitude, would be very appealing for GMMG.

User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
Posts: 6771
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Meds » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:36 pm

This team as had a lot of trouble hanging on to first round picks, and when they have it takes forever to develop. The Sedins are among the top 5 or 6 forwards in the league now, but it took them almost 10 years to get there. For probably the first time since Linden, we have 2 first round picks who are showing signs of becoming very good players.

Schneider has, in two seasons, gone from being a high-hopes prospect, to easily pushing one of the leagues so-called elite goaltenders for the starting job. Many think he's ready, many think he should take Luongo's job now.

Hodgson has been hampered by injuries, but in his first real chance with the big club he is making a strong case for himself. As Pot pointed out, he is trending upwards of the 50 point pace now, and he has been putting up 2nd line numbers playing with 3rd line wingers and getting 3rd line minutes. His game has steadily improved, and now appears to be taking some major strides.

Trading either of these guys is a mistake, it would take away to big pieces of this team's future in exchange for a shorter term return.

Also, this team has turned a corner this season.....finally. I wouldn't mess with the chemistry we are seeing right now when you consider the offensive production of the last 8 games. The Canucks have scored 3 goals or better in each outing, and 4 and 5 goals in all but three of those games. If there are any changes worth making it is on the blueline where both Rome and Alberts could be packaged up with a prospect or pick to bring in a better return (possibly?).

User avatar
Jovocop
CC Legend
Posts: 3779
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Jovocop » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:21 pm

Meds wrote:This team as had a lot of trouble hanging on to first round picks, and when they have it takes forever to develop. The Sedins are among the top 5 or 6 forwards in the league now, but it took them almost 10 years to get there. For probably the first time since Linden, we have 2 first round picks who are showing signs of becoming very good players.
Ohlund and Kesler might have something to say about that... Honourable mention: Nedved, Grabner, and Umberger... Allen...

User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
Posts: 6771
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Meds » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:43 pm

Jovocop wrote:
Meds wrote:This team as had a lot of trouble hanging on to first round picks, and when they have it takes forever to develop. The Sedins are among the top 5 or 6 forwards in the league now, but it took them almost 10 years to get there. For probably the first time since Linden, we have 2 first round picks who are showing signs of becoming very good players.
Ohlund and Kesler might have something to say about that... Honourable mention: Nedved, Grabner, and Umberger... Allen...
And where are Nedved, Allen, Grabner, and Umberger now? How long did they last in Vancouver? Where did they finish their careers? Even Ohlund has been gone for a couple of years.

For some reason I thought we took Kesler in the 2nd or 3rd round.....looked again, 23rd overall. :oops:

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Farhan Lalji » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:51 pm

wienerdog wrote:I'm guessing you haven't watched too many of the games yet this season, including tonight's.

Schneider's not going anywhere. At this point, he's is vital to keeping us competitive. Luongo is still miles off his game.

And with all our injuries up front, CoHo's not going anywhere either, unless it's for another forward to fill that slot.

So no.
Hey wienerdog,

I admittedly haven't watched too many games this year (I was experiencing 'cup hangover'), but I've been back in full force ever since the Lions won the Grey Cup. I feel like I've got my second wind and I've watched every Canuck game ever since. Having said that, I am well aware of Schneider's stellar play and Luongo's struggles. However - some things to consider:

1) Buy low, sell high. There is a reason why this old adage has stuck around for as long as it has.

2) An outstanding team in front can overcompensate for average or slightly above average goaltending in the playoffs. Detroit proved this with Chris Osgood back in 08' and 09', while Chicago proved this with Niemi in 2010. If the team in front is overbearing and dominating, then non-superstarish goaltending can be compensated for. Even with that being said though, despite Luongo's inconsistent play, the guy is still an elite level goalie. Yes - he shit the bed in a few key games last year but he also played brilliantly as well. If the team in front is playing well (something that they did NOT do against their losses against Chicago and Boston), then Luongo will do the same 9 times out of 10.

As I stated, I probably would NOT pull the trigger and trade Hodgson or Schneider at this point (for the reasons that Potatoe stated)..........but the way Hodgson and Schneider are playing right now, why SHOULDN"T we atleast consider the idea of possibly getting someone like Shea Weber or Zack Parise over here?

If Kesler had a guy like Parise to play with, we would literally have two of the top lines in the game. Opposing teams in the playoffs would have to choose whether to focus on the twins (with their top 'd' and shut down centers) or Kesler/Parise. On the flip side - what if we got a guy like Shea Weber? We all know how much of a beast this guy is on defense....and we all know how susceptible the Canucks' D has often been to injury. The point I'm trying to make here is that perhaps we COULD do something with Hodgson and Schneider now........now that their values have increased dramatically over the past 4 months.

I personally wouldn't trade Hodgson and Schneider.........but I do think it's worth talking about.

User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
Posts: 15208
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Hockey Widow » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:28 pm

I suppose that all depends upon what you see the future of the team as. The twins will be around for 3 more seasons after this and in 4 more you have to re up Kesler. Next year is Maholtra's last year and Lappy too. So suddenly the future down the middle is getting a little thin.

Good teams don't just stock up for that one cup run. They build for now and keep the future in mind. Detroit is an example of doing it the right way and Calgary is an example of doing it the wrong way.

Unless there is an offer that makes us substantially better Cody is here to stay. He is the future not only as the 3rd line centre now but I see him moving on up once the twins retire.

As for Cory, well he is RFA next year. The Canucks can take him to arbitration or lock him up by re-signing him for two more years which coincides with Luongo's first opportunity to ask for a trade. If I'm MG I do all I can to lock Cory up for those two years and see what comes down the road.

None of this trade an asset for the sake of making a trade. Both these guys are part of our future and I don't want that mortgaged for a one year run at the cup. But obviously if MG can make a deal that makes the team substantially better now and adds picks or prospects than he has to do that but not just because he wants to make a trade.

We don;t have a lot of cap wiggle room this season so any trade bringing guys back will require more than Cody and Cory going. I do think he will look for deals like he got last year with Lappy and Higgins. I can see him pulling off one or two of those before the deadline passes but I do not expect any blockbuster deals.

Come the draft he will have a solid idea of what Cory's camp expects in terms of coin and he can always deal Cory then if he has to and the return on draft day is usually not bad. So my vote is no way you trade those two at this point in time...unless someone makes MG a ridiculous offer that just cannot be ignored.
The only HW the Canucks need

User avatar
Jovocop
CC Legend
Posts: 3779
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Jovocop » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:50 pm

Meds wrote:
Jovocop wrote:
Meds wrote:This team as had a lot of trouble hanging on to first round picks, and when they have it takes forever to develop. The Sedins are among the top 5 or 6 forwards in the league now, but it took them almost 10 years to get there. For probably the first time since Linden, we have 2 first round picks who are showing signs of becoming very good players.
Ohlund and Kesler might have something to say about that... Honourable mention: Nedved, Grabner, and Umberger... Allen...
And where are Nedved, Allen, Grabner, and Umberger now? How long did they last in Vancouver? Where did they finish their careers? Even Ohlund has been gone for a couple of years.

For some reason I thought we took Kesler in the 2nd or 3rd round.....looked again, 23rd overall. :oops:
You were only saying "becoming very good players". I don't see the requirement of still being a Canuck...

As much as I hate Nedved and Umberger, they are solid NHL players. Grabner is still young... so who knows...

As for Ohlund, I am not sure what you want from a defenseman but he was a very good one for the Canucks. The Canucks gave him up not because he was bad. It's more like he was getting old and slow.

Farhan Lalji

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by Farhan Lalji » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:22 pm

Hockey Widow wrote: So my vote is no way you trade those two at this point in time...unless someone makes MG a ridiculous offer that just cannot be ignored.
Great post HW and I feel the exact same way. The last part of your last sentence is what prompted me to make this thread however. "A ridiculous offer that just cannot be ignored." Given the rapid development that we've seen from Schneider and Hodgson, is it reasonable to assume that perhaps we WOULD receive a "ridiculous offer that cannot be ignored?" (and in effect, making this entire subject something that is actually debate worthy).

In answering my own question, I probably still wouldn't do it. I like the idea of having BOTH Schneider and Luongo back there......as it gives us something similar to what Thomas/Rask have in Boston (or perhaps even what Detroit had with Vernon/Osgood or Osgood/Hasek from back in the day).

Hodgson also looks like a keeper, and I'd hate to see him become a superstar somewhere else. As you mentioned, I'd much rather be like Detroit than Calgary.

wienerdog
CC 2nd Team All-Star
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:47 pm

Re: Farhan's $0.02: Has the time come to shop Hodgson/Schnei

Post by wienerdog » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:43 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote: 1) Buy low, sell high. There is a reason why this old adage has stuck around for as long as it has.

2) An outstanding team in front can overcompensate for average or slightly above average goaltending in the playoffs. Detroit proved this with Chris Osgood back in 08' and 09', while Chicago proved this with Niemi in 2010. If the team in front is overbearing and dominating, then non-superstarish goaltending can be compensated for. Even with that being said though, despite Luongo's inconsistent play, the guy is still an elite level goalie. Yes - he shit the bed in a few key games last year but he also played brilliantly as well. If the team in front is playing well (something that they did NOT do against their losses against Chicago and Boston), then Luongo will do the same 9 times out of 10.

As I stated, I probably would NOT pull the trigger and trade Hodgson or Schneider at this point (for the reasons that Potatoe stated)..........but the way Hodgson and Schneider are playing right now, why SHOULDN"T we atleast consider the idea of possibly getting someone like Shea Weber or Zack Parise over here?

If Kesler had a guy like Parise to play with, we would literally have two of the top lines in the game. Opposing teams in the playoffs would have to choose whether to focus on the twins (with their top 'd' and shut down centers) or Kesler/Parise. On the flip side - what if we got a guy like Shea Weber? We all know how much of a beast this guy is on defense....and we all know how susceptible the Canucks' D has often been to injury. The point I'm trying to make here is that perhaps we COULD do something with Hodgson and Schneider now........now that their values have increased dramatically over the past 4 months.

I personally wouldn't trade Hodgson and Schneider.........but I do think it's worth talking about.
Basically, here's my answer, Farhan:

1) If you think Luongo will win you the Cup this year with a lesser defense then last year, then feel free to go ahead and trade Schneider. I don't happen to have faith in that right now, and I don't believe MG does either. Osgood theories or no.

2) We don't need a player like Parise. He thows a carefully crafted cap structure out of whack. The Amex line is a perfectly good 1B line without Parise. We need defenders, not T6 forwards. So as much of a wet dream as it would be to have the guy, no to Parise.

3) Weber is one of the few I'd consider making a trade for with these pieces, but they already have a key guy in net so I don't see it happening. Coho plus what gets that done?

Our team is trending just fine right now: we are back on track to elite status and both players are contributing in huge ways. I'm not much of a sell-just-because-I-can guy.

If it makes our team siginifcantly better then, yes, of course you do it. But as dbr said, that's not easy to do. Parise certainly isn't going to do it b/c you have to dump a shitload of salary. Same with Weber. We already have a shitload of upper echelon players, how many more do we need?

So, I suppose it's worth talking about if there are specifics, but w/o the specifics, my answer is still: Hells no. I don't trade either guy right now. Least of all Schneider.

Post Reply