Canucks Acquire David Booth & Parts + Various Rumours

[coco_canuck]

These same guys deliver punishment to the opposition (they may not use their fists but they hit and crash and bang).

It doesn't have to come in the traditional form of "crashing and banging," is what I'm saying.

Some players are hard to knock off the puck, have size, and excel in the dirty areas without being physical in the traditional sense.

I'd love to have a skilled team that can go toe-to-toe with the most physical teams in the league, but the most important thing is to play to your strengths, and in the Canucks case, that's 2-way forwards with speed and puck movers on the back-end.

Obviously, a traditional power forward would be a great addition, but above all else, they need 2-way players who can score goals in the playoffs.

Grit and toughness are important, but seriously misjudged by many. People tend to overestimate the importance of physical toughness, and they underestimate the less physical forms of toughness.

[ukcanuck]

These same guys deliver punishment to the opposition (they may not use their fists but they hit and crash and bang).

Grit and toughness are important, but seriously misjudged by many. People tend to overestimate the importance of physical toughness, and they underestimate the less physical forms of toughness.

I agree that teams can be physically tough to play against, but I still think that you're underestimating the importance of two or three guys who can trump all that with a good shit kicking and well timed accidental hit that either cows the other team or gets them so mad they stop playing hockey starts trying to run anything that moves.

[FAN]

Potatoe1 prolly wouldn't have been so condescending if he knew you were a long-timer.

Now isn't that nice? Bullying newcomers instead of welcoming them?

[coco_canuck]

I agree that teams can be physically tough to play against, but I still think that you're underestimating the importance of two or three guys who can trump all that with a good shit kicking and well timed accidental hit that either cows the other team or gets them so mad they stop playing hockey starts trying to run anything that moves.

Except for in the new NHL, there isn't that type of tough guy deterrent you seem to think exists. I think you're confusing me saying toughness isn't as important as some are making it out to be, i.e. the missing link to win the cup, and saying toughness is a non-factor.

Unfortunately, unless you're built like the Bruins, and have an excellent mix of skill and talented tough players, a tough player or two will not: "trump all that with a good shit kicking and well timed accidental hit that either cows the other team or gets them so mad they stop playing hockey starts trying to run anything that moves."

That no longer happens unless the entire team can back that style up...and besides, I still remember seeing the big bad Bruins be victims of head shots the year they won the cup, Savard and Horton etc.

Go look at all the non playoff teams with a few "tough guys" who go headhunting without improving their team...Edmonton was a prime example last year.

Do you agree that scoring goals and strong two-way play is more important than adding traditional toughness?

If you do agree, then traditional toughness is more of a secondary trait that helps a team, but does not have the same level of importance as actually scoring goals and winning games.

So if traditional toughness is a secondary trait that isn't nearly as powerful if a player isn't somewhat well rounded, then how am I underestimating what a couple of tough guys can do?

[coco_canuck]

It boggles my mind that some people get pissed off whenever they think they're in a semantics discussion (not saying you), it's as if words have no meaning but I digress...

Sorry to break it to you bud but that's Potatoe. He thinks only his opinion is the right one and writes like he's some sort of expert that everyone should listen to.

Now isn't that nice? Bullying newcomers instead of welcoming them?

It boggles my mind that you keep crying like you're about to bleed out.

Grow a pair already and stop crying and moaning over people not being nice enough to you.

How do you get through life being so sensitive?

[Cornuck]

Potatoe1 prolly wouldn't have been so condescending if he knew you were a long-timer.

Now isn't that nice? Bullying newcomers instead of welcoming them?

Gotta go with FAN on this one. This board is open to everyone, and there isn't a 'probation' period that involves new posters passing a gauntlet.

[Blob Mckenzie]

Potatoe1 prolly wouldn't have been so condescending if he knew you were a long-timer.

Now isn't that nice? Bullying newcomers instead of welcoming them?

Gotta go with FAN on this one. This board is open to everyone, and there isn't a 'probation' period that involves new posters passing a gauntlet.

I agree with the sentiment Cornuck. Nobody should be brow beating anyone and bullying as poster FAN calls it, I really didn't see that going on here. I think poster FAN is just trying to stir it up a bit IMHO.

Take poster Potatoe1 for what he is. He knows the game , he calls it as he sees it and he has a bit of an edge. That edge can get him into trouble now and then as that's how he aquired said board handle. LOL he and I have gotten into it in the past before but he's still my bud.

[Cornuck]

Yeah, I didn't see any bullying, but I thought that it was a good opportunity to throw out a reminder.

Nothing personal, Pot.

[ukcanuck]

I agree that teams can be physically tough to play against, but I still think that you're underestimating the importance of two or three guys who can trump all that with a good shit kicking and well timed accidental hit that either cows the other team or gets them so mad they stop playing hockey starts trying to run anything that moves.

Except for in the new NHL, there isn't that type of tough guy deterrent you seem to think exists. I think you're confusing me saying toughness isn't as important as some are making it out to be, i.e. the missing link to win the cup, and saying toughness is a non-factor.

Unfortunately, unless you're built like the Bruins, and have an excellent mix of skill and talented tough players, a tough player or two will not: "trump all that with a good shit kicking and well timed accidental hit that either cows the other team or gets them so mad they stop playing hockey starts trying to run anything that moves."

That no longer happens unless the entire team can back that style up...and besides, I still remember seeing the big bad Bruins be victims of head shots the year they won the cup, Savard and Horton etc.

Go look at all the non playoff teams with a few "tough guys" who go headhunting without improving their team...Edmonton was a prime example last year.

Do you agree that scoring goals and strong two-way play is more important than adding traditional toughness?

If you do agree, then traditional toughness is more of a secondary trait that helps a team, but does not have the same level of importance as actually scoring goals and winning games.

So if traditional toughness is a secondary trait that isn't nearly as powerful if a player isn't somewhat well rounded, then how am I underestimating what a couple of tough guys can do?

Perhaps there is a distinction being made that we are simply crossing our wires over, I'm sure everyone agrees that to score goals in any league you need to be able to come out of the corners with the puck, you need to be able to stand in front of the net and go into the tough areas.

But if every time you do that there is a guy sticking his elbow in your face or butt ending you on the sly so that not even the ref standing right there can see it. If you cant get out of the corner with the puck or stand in or go to the tough areas, you're faced with either trying to play through it or take exception by fighting fire with fire.

The Sedin's response God love em, is to outsmart that and play through it, but then they find themselves being hooked and held, knocked down or checking to see that their body parts are intact or worse dive and hope the refs get involved.

The alternative is to hit back, but the Bruins pack response is an effect answer to that. Slightly tug on a jersey or put the blade of your stick in a knee pit or even dare try a face wash or finger bite and all of a sudden you have a hulking Lucic in your face AND a Marchand trying to submarine you at the same time.

Eventually its a game of oneupmanship or an arms build up where you need that nuclear deterrent or MAD style response by not one player but at least some or all of the roster. The Bruins need to be the ones trying to respond to the physical play and be worrying about how to get out of the corner with the puck without leaking blood.

now what about the officiating and the rules of the game and goodsportsmanship? well clearly thats all well and good, but when it counts in the playoffs we have seen time and again its the teams with the guts and fortitude, the size And the downright meanness who will cross the line first that are favoured by the refs, the media, the fans and the gods



I do recognise that the players we want dont grow on trees and every other GM strokes himself over signing these players but thats the challenge

[Potatoe1]

Get off your high horse Pot. It's old and tired. Combat an argument with reason rather than contempt. You do that a lot better, and, yes, when you stick to argument rather than condescension, I'll admit you do quite well. See below:

Again, I would encourage you to stop crying. No one likes a crybaby.

And if last season's 32 points are relevant so were the prior season's 33 goals. Now that pretty much outdoes anyone on the second line doesn't it?

So is David Booth still a 30 goal man, Mason Raymond going to get 25 this year?

Grabner has shown that he has the ability to use his speed and hands to generate scoring. I think he can and will do so again. You clearly don't.

No I think he will score...

I just dont think he will score enough to off set his deficiencies.

Again why have Grabner at 30 to 45 points when Chris Higgesn gets you that number and also plays a gritty 2-way game. How manny points does grabner need to outscore Higgens by to justify a spot in the top6 ?

If my argument is so ridiculous and such an embarrassment then why don't we have a cup? Oh, that's right, history is a ridiculous embarrassment.

What does this have to do with anything I said?

There is a "massive" difference between winning a cup and being capable of winning a cup.

The Canucks made it as far as a team can make it with out actually winning so IMO they are very clearly capable of winning it all. That of course does not mean they will.

Personally I think that Luck plays a fairly major factor in who ultimately wins it all.

I think there are 5 or 6 teams capable of winning most years, who hoists the mug is typically the team with some luck with regard to injuries, match upps, bounces, and how the game is reffed.

Look at LA this year...

Yes they have a very talented group who played really well, but they were almost 100% healthy, got a ton of good bounces, incredibly good match upps, and the "put the whistle away" reffing style played right into their strength.

Take any of the 5 or 6 top teams in the league, present a similar set of circumstances, and the results will be quite predictable.

[Fred]

Toughness come in all form. I recall Tom Watt saying at a coaches work shop at UBC, in the pros intimidation is a reasonable part of any system. When i worked with a kid from the Seattle Thunderbirds he told me they always tried to come on the ice second and they always lined up in the dressing room the biggest first and then down the line. How many recall the Canucks hired a psychologist to determine the new uniform colours, and he came up with black as the most intimidating colour ( that's the downhill skate on a black shirt) What ever it is the Canucks fail to grasp, and, come up with the turn the other cheek and take the PP, which may be academically the correct thing to do but a complete waste of time when the PP is not working or the officials stop calling penalties. IMO the Canucks need to prepare during the season for what they can expect during the play-offs. They need to be the perpetrators not the responders. If for no other reason the second infraction is generally the penalty call.

The mind set has to change and that starts with AV, assuming MG has brought in the necessary studs

[ukcanuck]

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!!

Didnt that guy die in a pool with white stuff stuck to his nose???

[Fred]

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!!

That would be nice, put the Jesus feet away for the summer and leave the walking on water to others better suited.

[Potatoe1]

Yeah, I didn't see any bullying, but I thought that it was a good opportunity to throw out a reminder.

Nothing personal, Pot.

None taken,

I don't think I treat new people any differently anyway.

Though I am sort of confused as to why the poster in question was using 2 user names.

[FAN]

It boggles my mind that you keep crying like you're about to bleed out.

Grow a pair already and stop crying and moaning over people not being nice enough to you.

How do you get through life being so sensitive?

Maybe you should refresh yourself on the guidelines.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8551

In the end, discussions will get heated, opinions will be debated ad nauseum and all we're asking is that a civil tone is used. What might be ok between you and someone else, might not be ok with the dozens of other posters that read it.