Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

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darren
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by darren »

wienerdog wrote:
1) It 100% does matter what RL earns, and it's not "irrelevant". Salary is always tied to expectation and Lu isn't immune to that. People want the players to perform according to salary. Whether it's the fans or the GM.

"He doesn't 'make' $10M. His cap hit is only $5.3M a year".

Well, that's false - he 'makes' what he's paid - and he only has a cap hit that low because of the incredibly risky contract that MG gave him.
I think you're begging the question here. Expectation is often tied to salary (as opposed to cap hit), but that doesn't doesn't make it reasonable.

I would not say, given Lou's track record (three Vezina noms, career numbers, etc, etc), that his contract is "risky". He is unquestionably, at WORST, a quality starting goaltender in the NHL. How many goalies in this league are not only starters, but UNQUESTIONABLE quality starters? Less than 30. Not every team has one.

If he were on the block there would be plenty of takers. What's the "risk"?
wienerdog wrote:Is he to blame for that loss? I think not, but he certainly didn't outperform the guy at the other end - 200' away as you say - that had had a much, much, much harder test than Louie did at that moment.

So whether the comparison is fair or not, he was nowhere near what Lundqvist's performance was. Not even in the same postal code.

And that, my friend, sums up why Roberto gets a hard time on nights like that.
My point is that the comparison is not fair. If Lundqvist were that good every night, then the Rangers would have a rafter full of recent Cup banners, and I'd want him instead of Lou. But Lundqvist ISN'T that good every night.

In fact, he has a whopping total of 4 (four) playoff wins in the last 3 (three) years. Luongo has won more ROUNDS in the last three years than Lundqvist has won GAMES. (Oh, and Lou's cap hit is quite a bit lower too :lol: )
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dhabums
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by dhabums »

Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Sticky »

dhabums wrote:Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?
Interesting... Also of note to me was that the team celebration after the win was in the wild end... Schneider came TO the team to celebrate, instead of everyone going to the Vancouver crease.
I like it.
Perhaps a symbol from the team to the fan base expressing that ONE player does not a successful team make...
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by ukcanuck »

Sticky wrote:
dhabums wrote:Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?
Interesting... Also of note to me was that the team celebration after the win was in the wild end... Schneider came TO the team to celebrate, instead of everyone going to the Vancouver crease.
I like it.
Perhaps a symbol from the team to the fan base expressing that ONE player does not a successful team make...
I guess you could read that into the situation if you were inclined, but wouldn't be more likely that it was an OT win and everyone was at that end of the ice and congratulating Salo? I think the players have been pretty clear that they play for each other and the team and wouldn't bother sending any message to the fan base let alone one so divisive as that.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Sticky »

ukcanuck wrote:
Sticky wrote:
dhabums wrote:Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?
Interesting... Also of note to me was that the team celebration after the win was in the wild end... Schneider came TO the team to celebrate, instead of everyone going to the Vancouver crease.
I like it.
Perhaps a symbol from the team to the fan base expressing that ONE player does not a successful team make...
I guess you could read that into the situation if you were inclined, but wouldn't be more likely that it was an OT win and everyone was at that end of the ice and congratulating Salo? I think the players have been pretty clear that they play for each other and the team and wouldn't bother sending any message to the fan base let alone one so divisive as that.
We'll see I guess... Haven't noticed that before, but maybe I just wasn't paying attention.I guess I dont think it would be so much that ONE player doesn't make a team successful, but rather ... ONE player isn't responsible for a teams success or failure.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by ESQ »

Mondi wrote: In my view, the question is now, and always should have been, whether or not the Canucks can win with Luongo.
Interesting take. My view is that the question is, do the Canucks have a better chance of winning with Luongo? What I mean is that, can anybody actually provide a viable alternative in net?

The closest I've ever heard to a viable alternative is to take the 2011 version of Thomas, or the late-2010 version of Niemi, or the shutout version of Lundqvist, or give the reins to Schneider and see how he does as a starter. Fans in general tend to be myopic when viewing other teams and their players, and frankly no other goalie in the league is subjected to as much scrutiny as Luongo.

In my opinion, Luongo gives us the best shot to win the Cup the year the stars align and a healthy Canucks team makes the playoffs and the rulebook still exists in June.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Sticky »

Mondi wrote:
ESQ wrote:
Mondi wrote: In my view, the question is now, and always should have been, whether or not the Canucks can win with Luongo.
Interesting take. My view is that the question is, do the Canucks have a better chance of winning with Luongo? What I mean is that, can anybody actually provide a viable alternative in net?

The closest I've ever heard to a viable alternative is to take the 2011 version of Thomas, or the late-2010 version of Niemi, or the shutout version of Lundqvist, or give the reins to Schneider and see how he does as a starter. Fans in general tend to be myopic when viewing other teams and their players, and frankly no other goalie in the league is subjected to as much scrutiny as Luongo.

In my opinion, Luongo gives us the best shot to win the Cup the year the stars align and a healthy Canucks team makes the playoffs and the rulebook still exists in June.
I'm not going to sit here and say you are wrong, because you make an excellent points about (1) the myopia of the fan base and (2) the viability of alternatives.

Where you and I depart is on one of the alternatives: Cory Schneider. I see Schneider as equally capable in terms of physical skills and, in addition, far superior mentally, as in he is not carrying the weight of an odd national media obsession and three playoff debacles around with him wherever he goes.

In my view, Schneider is the superior option because he doesn't not have to deal with the media and fan obsession nor does he seem to take losses, goals, boos, negative criticism nearly as personally. At the very least, Schneider is in the position Luongo was in 2007. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but Cory has nothing to lose or no historical pressure on him. However one wants to term it, Schneider is set up for success in the same way Luongo was in 2007. We all saw how Luongo performed back then.

It may just be a case of the market and player outgrowing one another. Then again, Luongo could win the cup this year and he'd be more than within his rights to tell a lot of people to STFU or GFTs. Ha.

Schneider may very well be as good in terms of skills and capabilities... And may even be seen as far superior mentally.

But seriously... When was the last time you saw a backup goaltender draw the media and fan obsessions?

How long after Roberto hypothetically moves along, do you think it would be before Cory would be standing in front of the incontinent, trigger happy firing squad that is the Vancouver sports media and fan base?

I havent seen enough from Cory to tell if he is of the highest (read : Christlike) demeanor, able to deal with the media and fan obsession in this city.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by ukcanuck »

Sticky wrote:

Schneider may very well be as good in terms of skills and capabilities... And may even be seen as far superior mentally.

But seriously... When was the last time you saw a backup goaltender draw the media and fan obsessions?

How long after Roberto hypothetically moves along, do you think it would be before Cory would be standing in front of the incontinent, trigger happy firing squad that is the Vancouver sports media and fan base?

I havent seen enough from Cory to tell if he is of the highest (read : Christlike) demeanor, able to deal with the media and fan obsession in this city.

this is point that makes me wonder, so far Cory has not had to handle the pressure that Luongo does. Look what happened when he got the nod against Chicago, he hacked up the puck a few times and injured himself at a crucial point. He basically cracked under the weight of the moment. if people have zero patience for Luongo how long will the honeymoon be for Schneider and how would he respond. i am afraid that in the rush to pin the blame on Luongo and decide we will never win the cup with him...
well, I know I wouldn't want to be the guy's replacement.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Meds »

darren wrote:
My point is that the comparison is not fair. If Lundqvist were that good every night, then the Rangers would have a rafter full of recent Cup banners, and I'd want him instead of Lou. But Lundqvist ISN'T that good every night.

In fact, he has a whopping total of 4 (four) playoff wins in the last 3 (three) years. Luongo has won more ROUNDS in the last three years than Lundqvist has won GAMES. (Oh, and Lou's cap hit is quite a bit lower too :lol: )
I love how people like to take credit away from Luongo because of the team in front of him, and then also give credit to Luongo for the team in front of him at other times (the latter being rarer than the former). Luongo built his reputation as an elite goaltender in Florida behind a team that couldn't find themselves a playoff birth to save their lives, despite having Bobby Lou playing all-world hockey behind them. Now people fault Lundqvist for the Ranger's lack of success? Granted, NYR has some top talent on their roster skating in front of Lundqvist, but so did Florida back when Louie was there.

I suppose you were one of the finger pointers looking down your extended index at Lundqvist in 2010 when the Ranger's and Flyer's played their last game of the regular season and the winner was in and the loser was out. The Ranger's were total shit in that game. The Flyer's were simply flying. Lundqvist held the door shut and the game tied 1-1 until the final buzzer at the end of OT. He faced 47 shots while his team only mustered 25 against Boucher at the other end. He wasn't great in the shootout, but when you consider that with the game on the line, do or die for the playoffs riding on the final score, and Tortorella sends Olli Jokinen over the boards, what chance does any goalie really have of getting credit for a win?

My point is that the team in front of a goaltender should always be considered when looking at a goaltender's success.....or lack thereof. Lundqvist has stolen more games for the Ranger's than Luongo has for the Canuck's. We all gave Louie full marks in 2007 when the team made it to the playoffs and eliminated Dallas in 7 games. Lundqvist may not be the same goaltender that Louie WAS, but he is a better bet than Louie IS.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Island Nucklehead »

Meds wrote: Lundqvist may not be the same goaltender that Louie WAS, but he is a better bet than Louie IS.
He's also the highest paid goalie in hockey. They have similar career regular season numbers, slight edge to Lundqvist based on G/A... save % is identical. Is he worth 20% more in salary than Luongo? My guess is probably no...

You have no idea how Lundqivst would do here, his playoff numbers are worse than Lou's. You know that Luongo and the Canucks went to game 7 of the Finals. Lost to the greatest goaltending (arguably ever), and couldn't score more than a goal per game.

Luongo needed to be better. The whole team needed to be better. But it is a fact that he was one of four goalies (two starters) still playing hockey while everyone else golfed.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Meds »

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Meds wrote: Lundqvist may not be the same goaltender that Louie WAS, but he is a better bet than Louie IS.
He's also the highest paid goalie in hockey. They have similar career regular season numbers, slight edge to Lundqvist based on G/A... save % is identical. Is he worth 20% more in salary than Luongo? My guess is probably no...

You have no idea how Lundqivst would do here, his playoff numbers are worse than Lou's. You know that Luongo and the Canucks went to game 7 of the Finals. Lost to the greatest goaltending (arguably ever), and couldn't score more than a goal per game.

Luongo needed to be better. The whole team needed to be better. But it is a fact that he was one of four goalies (two starters) still playing hockey while everyone else golfed.
That's all true. I would still take Lundqvist over Lou in a do or die game with this team.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Strangelove »

Rumsfeld wrote:Would the good doctor care to elaborate?
No.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Meds »

Rumsfeld wrote:The notion that Luongo is anything more than an average playoff goalie is pants-on-head retarded at this point.
Is that, short-pants or regular-pants, retarded?
An ELITE goalie, IMO, is a goalie who, at least once or twice a playoff, steals games for his team in which his team is being outplayed, outshot and outchanced. How many times has Lou done that in the playoffs? Have we ever even won a playoff game with Lou in net in which we were badly outplayed?

Luongo very rarely steals games, has never stolen a series, and has an alarmingly frequent tendency to get absolutely lit up by weak shot after weak shot.
This I will have to disagree with and point to 2007 against Dallas. He completely outplayed Turco, who was considered to be one of the NHL's elite at that point. And we eliminated Dallas, who were the favorites to win that series going in. Our offense was non-existent thanks to a coach who had yet to be Gillis'd and we ended up playing some very long over-time games that round. Of course he then pulled the cork on his very own bottle of playoff choke wine and decided to watch the ref rather than the puck. It's true that Luongo has gotten almost no love from the officiating in this league, but that is besides the point and by no means does it excuse him.

I actually think that the injury he suffered two seasons ago is when his game really turned south. He quit coming across the net the way he used to, he was more prone to spread out on his belly, and he lost about 2 inches on either side of his pads when down in the butterfly. He totally lost the ability to steal a game for us, and any confidence he had left evaporated in the 2nd round against Chicago. From there on out he was No-Show Lou when we needed him to be No-Goal Lou, and the media hounds and fans began to circle like vultures. The added pressure from his family, the new goalie coach, the fact that he was about to be pushed (and then was last year) by Schneider, and also pressure from management, as well as his own competitive drive and pride, have simply taken too great a toll on Luongo. Vancouver is just not a good fit for him anymore, he is a goalie that will thrive in a smaller market where there is less expectation from the fans and media.

This is not a slight against him either IMO. There are only 2 goalies that I can think of in the last 10-15 years that have handled the media scrutiny and pressure to win without batting an eye. Brodeur and Roy, both had teams in front of them that were elite, the Devil's were shutdown experts, and the Sakic/Forsberg lead Av's were stacked from head-to-toe. Hasek is a distant 3rd who never won a cup until he was playing behind the Red Wing's dynasty, but always turned in strong performances when the chips were down and got Buffalo all the way to the finals only to lose on a blown call.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Meds »

darren wrote:
dhabums wrote: While you may want to tell yourself your goalie's performance doesn't affect the rest of the team and how the game is played, I'll most respectfully and smirkingly disagree.
You bought your ticket, so you can smirk if you want.

However, the FACTS are on my side, not yours.
What facts are those exactly?

If a goalie shits the bed, the team in front of him generally follows suit, while the team coming at him gains confidence with every rush.

Seriously though, if you have facts I'd appreciate seeing them.
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Re: Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

Post by Rumsfeld »

Meds wrote:This I will have to disagree with and point to 2007 against Dallas. He completely outplayed Turco, who was considered to be one of the NHL's elite at that point. And we eliminated Dallas, who were the favorites to win that series going in. Our offense was non-existent thanks to a coach who had yet to be Gillis'd and we ended up playing some very long over-time games that round.
I think your memory might be a little foggy with regard to that series. Luongo in no way "completely outplayed Turco".

Turco had three shutouts in that series. Three. The only game that wasn't decided by one goal was game seven, in which we had two empty-netters.

If you want to give Luongo the edge in that series, fine, but if so it was by the slimmest of margins. Going into game seven the media consensus was that Luongo was at best even with Turco, with many pundits giving the edge to Turco. Both goaltenders were outstanding in that series, and it didn't hurt their performances that both teams had anemic offenses who struggled mightily to put the puck in the net with any consistency.
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