Official Luongo Hate / Love Thread

[darren]

1) It 100% does matter what RL earns, and it's not "irrelevant". Salary is always tied to expectation and Lu isn't immune to that. People want the players to perform according to salary. Whether it's the fans or the GM.

"He doesn't 'make' $10M. His cap hit is only $5.3M a year".

Well, that's false - he 'makes' what he's paid - and he only has a cap hit that low because of the incredibly risky contract that MG gave him.

I think you're begging the question here. Expectation is often tied to salary (as opposed to cap hit), but that doesn't doesn't make it reasonable.

I would not say, given Lou's track record (three Vezina noms, career numbers, etc, etc), that his contract is "risky". He is unquestionably, at WORST, a quality starting goaltender in the NHL. How many goalies in this league are not only starters, but UNQUESTIONABLE quality starters? Less than 30. Not every team has one.

If he were on the block there would be plenty of takers. What's the "risk"?

Is he to blame for that loss? I think not, but he certainly didn't outperform the guy at the other end - 200' away as you say - that had had a much, much, much harder test than Louie did at that moment.

So whether the comparison is fair or not, he was nowhere near what Lundqvist's performance was. Not even in the same postal code.

And that, my friend, sums up why Roberto gets a hard time on nights like that.

My point is that the comparison is not fair. If Lundqvist were that good every night, then the Rangers would have a rafter full of recent Cup banners, and I'd want him instead of Lou. But Lundqvist ISN'T that good every night.

In fact, he has a whopping total of 4 (four) playoff wins in the last 3 (three) years. Luongo has won more ROUNDS in the last three years than Lundqvist has won GAMES. (Oh, and Lou's cap hit is quite a bit lower too )

[Mondi]

The reality I like to point to when discussing Red Light Robert (sorry, I couldn't resist) is that the two worst games of his career have occurred in the playoffs, one in the SCF and one in an elimination game.

Mr. Luongo has NEVER given up 7 or 8 in the regular season and yet for some inexplicable reason, at least inexplicable for his supporters, he has put up the worst statistical games of his career when it matters most. Not to mention various other stinkers in key games in his career (see games 4, 6 and 7 of the 2011 SCFs, game 6 vs Chic in 2010).

Luongo's career as a questionable playoff goaltender has been five years in the making, starting with an awful lapse in concentration at a crucial moment in 2007 and culminating in a SCF where the guy gave up 20+ goals in 7 games (while giving up 2 goals over three wins, so lets call that 18+ goals in 4 losses).

Regardless of the play of the defence in front of him, and the forwards at the other end of the ice, the reality is that Luongo was healthy and in the net for all 7 games in the SCFs. He was the only Canucks player on the ice for then entirety of the games (well except when he got yanked) and, perhaps most importantly, he was the highest paid player in the NHL last season.

If you are a guy being compensated in the range of Sidney Crosby and/or Alex Ovechkin you need to either put up or shut up. No excuses. You need to stop the puck more than the guy at the other end of the rink and not worry about with the media is doing or how the fans are reacting to you.

With all that being said, I do refuse to pin the entire SCF debacle on Luongo, clearly it was not all his fault. And to suggest that Luongo's detractors are claiming it was all his fault is as unreasonable as it is irresponsible. The fact is, Luongo was a huge part of the playoff flops in 2009, 2010 and 2011. And the fact is, the other top players could have done more (though I argue that with injuries serious to H. Sedin and R. Kesler it is hard to point the finger at them).

What I will say is that Luongo has been one of, if not the biggest, reason for the team's collapses since he arrived in Vancouver. In 2007, a remarkable performance was marred by a serious lapse in concentration at a critical moment. While, at that time, that lapse was seen more as an unfortunate exception than the rule it has been the case that over the years those lapses in concentration have become the hallmark of Luongo's playoff play.

Luongo is a goaltender with a regular season record almost second to none in NHL history, however his playoff performances have, year after year, failed to live up to those in regular season.

In my view, the question is now, and always should have been, whether or not the Canucks can win with Luongo. We no longer need to debate if he is a good or great player (or other inane questions such as if we like the way he handles the media/fan criticism). The answer to whether he is a good player an obvious, yes. The answer to whether or not Vancouver can win the Cup with Luongo in net is very much open. In my opinion, while it remains possible, I think it is more likely that Luongo does not have what it takes to win the Cup.

Last season was the season for Luongo and instead of rising to the occasion and all but sealing a Cup victory in game 3 of SCFs the guy gave up 8. Blame the Twins, blame AV all you want, the reality is the guy had never given up 8 in the NHL in his career until the SCFs.

I'll support Luongo insofar as he is a member of the Canucks until the end, but do I think he has the requisite mental toughness to win the Cup? I am not so sure.

[dhabums]

Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?

[Sticky]

Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?

Interesting... Also of note to me was that the team celebration after the win was in the wild end... Schneider came TO the team to celebrate, instead of everyone going to the Vancouver crease.
I like it.
Perhaps a symbol from the team to the fan base expressing that ONE player does not a successful team make...

[ukcanuck]

Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?

Interesting... Also of note to me was that the team celebration after the win was in the wild end... Schneider came TO the team to celebrate, instead of everyone going to the Vancouver crease.
I like it.
Perhaps a symbol from the team to the fan base expressing that ONE player does not a successful team make...

I guess you could read that into the situation if you were inclined, but wouldn't be more likely that it was an OT win and everyone was at that end of the ice and congratulating Salo? I think the players have been pretty clear that they play for each other and the team and wouldn't bother sending any message to the fan base let alone one so divisive as that.

[Sticky]

Anyone else notice the almost sarcastic pro-Schneider cheer the first time he was mentioned as the starter yesterday?

Interesting... Also of note to me was that the team celebration after the win was in the wild end... Schneider came TO the team to celebrate, instead of everyone going to the Vancouver crease.
I like it.
Perhaps a symbol from the team to the fan base expressing that ONE player does not a successful team make...

I guess you could read that into the situation if you were inclined, but wouldn't be more likely that it was an OT win and everyone was at that end of the ice and congratulating Salo? I think the players have been pretty clear that they play for each other and the team and wouldn't bother sending any message to the fan base let alone one so divisive as that.

We'll see I guess... Haven't noticed that before, but maybe I just wasn't paying attention.I guess I dont think it would be so much that ONE player doesn't make a team successful, but rather ... ONE player isn't responsible for a teams success or failure.

[ESQ]

In my view, the question is now, and always should have been, whether or not the Canucks can win with Luongo.

Interesting take. My view is that the question is, do the Canucks have a better chance of winning with Luongo? What I mean is that, can anybody actually provide a viable alternative in net?

The closest I've ever heard to a viable alternative is to take the 2011 version of Thomas, or the late-2010 version of Niemi, or the shutout version of Lundqvist, or give the reins to Schneider and see how he does as a starter. Fans in general tend to be myopic when viewing other teams and their players, and frankly no other goalie in the league is subjected to as much scrutiny as Luongo.

In my opinion, Luongo gives us the best shot to win the Cup the year the stars align and a healthy Canucks team makes the playoffs and the rulebook still exists in June.

[Mondi]

In my view, the question is now, and always should have been, whether or not the Canucks can win with Luongo.

Interesting take. My view is that the question is, do the Canucks have a better chance of winning with Luongo? What I mean is that, can anybody actually provide a viable alternative in net?

The closest I've ever heard to a viable alternative is to take the 2011 version of Thomas, or the late-2010 version of Niemi, or the shutout version of Lundqvist, or give the reins to Schneider and see how he does as a starter. Fans in general tend to be myopic when viewing other teams and their players, and frankly no other goalie in the league is subjected to as much scrutiny as Luongo.

In my opinion, Luongo gives us the best shot to win the Cup the year the stars align and a healthy Canucks team makes the playoffs and the rulebook still exists in June.

I'm not going to sit here and say you are wrong, because you make an excellent points about (1) the myopia of the fan base and (2) the viability of alternatives.

Where you and I depart is on one of the alternatives: Cory Schneider. I see Schneider as equally capable in terms of physical skills and, in addition, far superior mentally, as in he is not carrying the weight of an odd national media obsession and three playoff debacles around with him wherever he goes.

In my view, Schneider is the superior option because he doesn't not have to deal with the media and fan obsession nor does he seem to take losses, goals, boos, negative criticism nearly as personally. At the very least, Schneider is in the position Luongo was in 2007. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but Cory has nothing to lose or no historical pressure on him. However one wants to term it, Schneider is set up for success in the same way Luongo was in 2007. We all saw how Luongo performed back then.

It may just be a case of the market and player outgrowing one another. Then again, Luongo could win the cup this year and he'd be more than within his rights to tell a lot of people to STFU or GFTs. Ha.

[Sticky]

In my view, the question is now, and always should have been, whether or not the Canucks can win with Luongo.

Interesting take. My view is that the question is, do the Canucks have a better chance of winning with Luongo? What I mean is that, can anybody actually provide a viable alternative in net?

The closest I've ever heard to a viable alternative is to take the 2011 version of Thomas, or the late-2010 version of Niemi, or the shutout version of Lundqvist, or give the reins to Schneider and see how he does as a starter. Fans in general tend to be myopic when viewing other teams and their players, and frankly no other goalie in the league is subjected to as much scrutiny as Luongo.

In my opinion, Luongo gives us the best shot to win the Cup the year the stars align and a healthy Canucks team makes the playoffs and the rulebook still exists in June.

I'm not going to sit here and say you are wrong, because you make an excellent points about (1) the myopia of the fan base and (2) the viability of alternatives.

Where you and I depart is on one of the alternatives: Cory Schneider. I see Schneider as equally capable in terms of physical skills and, in addition, far superior mentally, as in he is not carrying the weight of an odd national media obsession and three playoff debacles around with him wherever he goes.

In my view, Schneider is the superior option because he doesn't not have to deal with the media and fan obsession nor does he seem to take losses, goals, boos, negative criticism nearly as personally. At the very least, Schneider is in the position Luongo was in 2007. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but Cory has nothing to lose or no historical pressure on him. However one wants to term it, Schneider is set up for success in the same way Luongo was in 2007. We all saw how Luongo performed back then.

It may just be a case of the market and player outgrowing one another. Then again, Luongo could win the cup this year and he'd be more than within his rights to tell a lot of people to STFU or GFTs. Ha.

Schneider may very well be as good in terms of skills and capabilities... And may even be seen as far superior mentally.

But seriously... When was the last time you saw a backup goaltender draw the media and fan obsessions?

How long after Roberto hypothetically moves along, do you think it would be before Cory would be standing in front of the incontinent, trigger happy firing squad that is the Vancouver sports media and fan base?

I havent seen enough from Cory to tell if he is of the highest (read : Christlike) demeanor, able to deal with the media and fan obsession in this city.

[ukcanuck]

Schneider may very well be as good in terms of skills and capabilities... And may even be seen as far superior mentally.

But seriously... When was the last time you saw a backup goaltender draw the media and fan obsessions?

How long after Roberto hypothetically moves along, do you think it would be before Cory would be standing in front of the incontinent, trigger happy firing squad that is the Vancouver sports media and fan base?

I havent seen enough from Cory to tell if he is of the highest (read : Christlike) demeanor, able to deal with the media and fan obsession in this city.

this is point that makes me wonder, so far Cory has not had to handle the pressure that Luongo does. Look what happened when he got the nod against Chicago, he hacked up the puck a few times and injured himself at a crucial point. He basically cracked under the weight of the moment. if people have zero patience for Luongo how long will the honeymoon be for Schneider and how would he respond. i am afraid that in the rush to pin the blame on Luongo and decide we will never win the cup with him...
well, I know I wouldn't want to be the guy's replacement.

[Mondi]

I don't think you can use Cory's start versus Chicago as an example of how he'd perform if he was the number 1 going into the playoffs and coming off of a 30+ win season.

The point I was trying to make was that Cory hasn't had time to fall prey to the obnoxiousness of our market. Much like Luongo did, I think he'd have 2 to 3 years grace before he cracked. Seeing as how our window is open now, I'm an advocate for Cory.

In addition, the people who have no faith in Cory and speak about how Luongo is a proven commodity have to admit that there is PLENTY of evidence of rookie (or young) goalies coming in and playing above their heads. In my view, that precisely because they have not had time to truly understand the pressures of the big games

This goes further to my theory that Cory may have a few years before he cracks.

And more seriously, he just seems like a guy who can handle the bonehead questions from idiot-media (Sekeres and Botchford) meant to stir up controversy and undermine player confidence. He seems more affable and less vain than Luongo.

[Meds]

My point is that the comparison is not fair. If Lundqvist were that good every night, then the Rangers would have a rafter full of recent Cup banners, and I'd want him instead of Lou. But Lundqvist ISN'T that good every night.

In fact, he has a whopping total of 4 (four) playoff wins in the last 3 (three) years. Luongo has won more ROUNDS in the last three years than Lundqvist has won GAMES. (Oh, and Lou's cap hit is quite a bit lower too )

I love how people like to take credit away from Luongo because of the team in front of him, and then also give credit to Luongo for the team in front of him at other times (the latter being rarer than the former). Luongo built his reputation as an elite goaltender in Florida behind a team that couldn't find themselves a playoff birth to save their lives, despite having Bobby Lou playing all-world hockey behind them. Now people fault Lundqvist for the Ranger's lack of success? Granted, NYR has some top talent on their roster skating in front of Lundqvist, but so did Florida back when Louie was there.

I suppose you were one of the finger pointers looking down your extended index at Lundqvist in 2010 when the Ranger's and Flyer's played their last game of the regular season and the winner was in and the loser was out. The Ranger's were total shit in that game. The Flyer's were simply flying. Lundqvist held the door shut and the game tied 1-1 until the final buzzer at the end of OT. He faced 47 shots while his team only mustered 25 against Boucher at the other end. He wasn't great in the shootout, but when you consider that with the game on the line, do or die for the playoffs riding on the final score, and Tortorella sends Olli Jokinen over the boards, what chance does any goalie really have of getting credit for a win?

My point is that the team in front of a goaltender should always be considered when looking at a goaltender's success.....or lack thereof. Lundqvist has stolen more games for the Ranger's than Luongo has for the Canuck's. We all gave Louie full marks in 2007 when the team made it to the playoffs and eliminated Dallas in 7 games. Lundqvist may not be the same goaltender that Louie WAS, but he is a better bet than Louie IS.

[Island Nucklehead]

Lundqvist may not be the same goaltender that Louie WAS, but he is a better bet than Louie IS.

He's also the highest paid goalie in hockey. They have similar career regular season numbers, slight edge to Lundqvist based on G/A... save % is identical. Is he worth 20% more in salary than Luongo? My guess is probably no...

You have no idea how Lundqivst would do here, his playoff numbers are worse than Lou's. You know that Luongo and the Canucks went to game 7 of the Finals. Lost to the greatest goaltending (arguably ever), and couldn't score more than a goal per game.

Luongo needed to be better. The whole team needed to be better. But it is a fact that he was one of four goalies (two starters) still playing hockey while everyone else golfed.

[Meds]

Lundqvist may not be the same goaltender that Louie WAS, but he is a better bet than Louie IS.

He's also the highest paid goalie in hockey. They have similar career regular season numbers, slight edge to Lundqvist based on G/A... save % is identical. Is he worth 20% more in salary than Luongo? My guess is probably no...

You have no idea how Lundqivst would do here, his playoff numbers are worse than Lou's. You know that Luongo and the Canucks went to game 7 of the Finals. Lost to the greatest goaltending (arguably ever), and couldn't score more than a goal per game.

Luongo needed to be better. The whole team needed to be better. But it is a fact that he was one of four goalies (two starters) still playing hockey while everyone else golfed.

That's all true. I would still take Lundqvist over Lou in a do or die game with this team.

[Strangelove]

Would the good doctor care to elaborate?

No.