Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:02 am

The Bertuzzi hit was great. Perhaps I'm naive and Torres did target Seabrook's head on purpose but at the speed they're moving the difference between a headshot and a shoulder blow could be extremely minute...the difference of an angle that results in a goal vs the post.

Interesting how all this has come about. Last year we sorely missed any big hitting like this, a guy out there on forward who can make the opponents think twice. Back in '94 it was Hunter & Antoski bodychecking the opponents into submission and softening them up for the other 3 lines. Last year the Hawks dominated us in this regard. Now the tables have turned.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby woodhog » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:19 am

Torres would have to be extremely stupid to purposely target Seabrooks head. Especially in the game he returns after serving a suspension for the same offense.
The game is very fast and like Clam said, the difference between a head and a shoulder/chest hit can be minute.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby dr.dork » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:44 am

woodhog wrote:Torres would have to be extremely stupid to purposely target Seabrooks head. Especially in the game he returns after serving a suspension for the same offense.
The game is very fast and like Clam said, the difference between a head and a shoulder/chest hit can be minute.


I don't know what Toucan is arguing. Whether it is what the rules are or what they should be. But Torres hit was arguably not blind side, it was arguably not a head shot (no head contact first, although this is hard to see from the videos I have seen) and it occurred in an area with more latitude (behind the net). Obviously there are a lot of grey areas but the NHL decided that that was a clean hit, and this is AFTER they suspended Torres a few games ago.

It would be far more simple if the rule was simply "no head shots" meaning no contact with the head first (or hitting someone so their head hits the glass). The length of suspension is then dependent on severity and intent. You hit the head first, it is a penalty/suspension. You (as a hitter) have the responsibility of avoiding head contact.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:23 pm

What I've started to notice is the alarming frequency of players now putting their hands up to their heads after body contact...trying to sell it to the refs. A few years ago it started w/ the head flipping back and/or putting their hand up to their mouth as if they were cut. Before that it was diving. I've seen Canuck players do this and it pisses me off just as much as when the other team does. Mark my words we're going to see more & more of this.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby the toucan kid » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:26 pm

Sigh...

Okay I'm not implying he deliberately took aim at his head, just that he didn't bother to try and avoid it. Being that hockey infractions are based on self-control (sticks, elbows etc.) then yes, just launching yourself is irresponsible, and you deserve to be punished if you strike the head. Bert lined him up and went shoulder to chest, that's what I'm saying the difference is... precision.

It would be far more simple if the rule was simply "no head shots" meaning no contact with the head first (or hitting someone so their head hits the glass). The length of suspension is then dependent on severity and intent. You hit the head first, it is a penalty/suspension. You (as a hitter) have the responsibility of avoiding head contact.


Agreed.

I don't know what Toucan is arguing. Whether it is what the rules are or what they should be. But Torres hit was arguably not blind side, it was arguably not a head shot (no head contact first, although this is hard to see from the videos I have seen) and it occurred in an area with more latitude (behind the net). Obviously there are a lot of grey areas but the NHL decided that that was a clean hit, and this is AFTER they suspended Torres a few games ago.


Well I'm arguing if you have a rule saying blindside hits aren't allowed, that hit shouldn't be allowed. Since, as was brought to my attention, that isn't actually the rule and it's just a bunch of typical NHL obfuscation (Bob Mckenzie et al saying that it doesn't apply to here, here and here, etc.) then apparently they get to make up whatever they want as they go. Now, you were all against that, as was I, but this stands to me as a blindside, as he didn't see it, and a headshot because Torres irresponsibly went full board for a hit with no respect. Apparently it was only a bad hit because it was interference, although I doubt that was what the refs on the ice were actually calling. And again, it was a penalty, so it isn't a clean hit in any case.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby the toucan kid » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:27 pm

What I've started to notice is the alarming frequency of players now putting their hands up to their heads after body contact...trying to sell it to the refs. A few years ago it started w/ the head flipping back and/or putting their hand up to their mouth as if they were cut. Before that it was diving. I've seen Canuck players do this and it pisses me off just as much as when the other team does. Mark my words we're going to see more & more of this.


Yeah, but that doesn't make high sticking a bad penalty.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby Cornuck » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:33 pm

“What's wrong, what's right?” Daniel Sedin asked the Vancouver Province after the game. “We don't know, you don't know and I don't know if the refs know.”


This about sums it for me.

Clam, yes, the "fake head snap" and the "Hey ref! Look! I might be bleeding!!" moves are disgusting. I'll add in the "Arms up in the air to convey innocence" move whenever a player loses his stick near another player. Hockey players are slowly turning into a bunch drama queens and Eddie Shore must be rolling in his grave. Whatever happened to just getting hit, and moving on?

What's next? "Hey Ref!! Look!!! I just got my brain scan back!" :?
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:55 pm

the toucan kid wrote:Now, you were all against that, as was I, but this stands to me as a blindside, as he didn't see it


What is the NHL's definition of "blindside"? Arbour?

I don't see how front on front hits can ever be considered "blindside". If a player turns his head at the last minute is that blindside? What if he averts his eyes? How can a ref in a split second pick that up? This is further complicating an already hazy area. To me anything from beside or behind a player is blindside, anything from the front that is a clean hit (ie no elbow and no jumping) should be fair game. Even "intent" is a murky area in some cases. Some are blatant but others are completely up to the refs discretion. Isn't the onus on the player to be aware of whats ahead of him and keep his head up? I think a much larger problem is any hitting from behind...but even then we all know damn well some players now actually turn their back so they do take a hit from behind and draw a penalty. Whenever a player has an opportunity to let up and intentionally hits another from behind or to the head he should be hammered by a lengthy suspension.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby the toucan kid » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:18 pm

Isn't the Torres hit from the side, whereas the Bertuzzi hit from the front though?

Hockey players are slowly turning into a bunch drama queens and Eddie Shore must be rolling in his grave.


What? They've been drama queens for as long as I've been watching. This is just another way they can fake it, but still a valuable method of preventing unnecessary violence.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby dangler » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:29 pm

good to see the league got it right this time. I was a little worried that he would get suspended based on it being his first game back and his run at Campbell earlier in the game(which was far more of an infraction), but Colin Campbell obviously didn't buy into all the hype and realised Torres had no choice as to where he could hit Seabrook when they collided at that speed.

Hopefully Seabrook will be OK but seeing all the big hits hes taken lately he better be careful.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games

Postby Tciso » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:38 pm

trouble wrote:There should be no suspension. on that hit...

Trouble


If there is a suspension for the "hit to the head", then Q and his staff need some discipline too. Seabrook did not get checked out by the staff after that hit, and didn't spend his time in the green room, or whatever it's called. So, either Q does not believe it was a real hit to the head,or he doesn't care about Seabrook anymore than Torres cares about him. Either way, I am losing a ton of respect for Q.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games

Postby Tciso » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:48 pm

the toucan kid wrote:I don't have any problem with stating the game is quick, but that doesn't absolve reckless force, you can't just throw yourself at someone and let the results be what they may. The Bertuzzi hit I watched and think it's one of the best hits I have ever seen, he really measured it and still did the job.


Touc, I give you tons of credit for sticking to your guns on this. I totally disagree with you, but I admire your spirit. I can just as easily argue that Bert has more experience throwing hits than Torres, so we shouldn't expect Torres to be able to be as good at it as Bert. Torres is more reckless, but control is a learned response. If Torres has another 500 games, then maybe he'd have been able to make a better/safer hit. So, if hitting is a skill, Torres should not be singled out for trying to get in a few more practice hits as he improves that aspect of his game. It's a weak argument on my part, but so is expecting Torres to be able to respond to Seabrook dropping his head and cranking his neck around.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby the toucan kid » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:24 pm

Tciso, all I say is that Torres has plenty of NHL experience. But otherwise fair enough.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby the toucan kid » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:57 pm

I have to say, I was at a friend's place, and it came on the tube, and I just look at it... it isn't a good hit.
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Re: Torres gets 4 games (and then none)

Postby Robert » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:41 pm

We know the hit was leagal, but what pisses me off is when a player gets hit and goes down a ref more often than not is looking to penalize. It pisses me off.

At least the league got this one right.
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