Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by trouble » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:36 pm

Arachnid wrote:
trouble wrote:Sorry i have to disagree with Retiring Linden & Smyl.. Ring of Honor. YES.

The Canucks need to win a cup before a player can even come close to getting it retired. He did alot for the Canucks but No Cup
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by Arachnid » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:35 pm

trouble wrote:
Arachnid wrote:
trouble wrote:Sorry i have to disagree with Retiring Linden & Smyl.. Ring of Honor. YES.

The Canucks need to win a cup before a player can even come close to getting it retired. He did alot for the Canucks but No Cup
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by levelheaded » Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:36 pm

Trouble and Arachnid you're both idiots.


As for Naslund, he deserves some sort of recognition and this is a fairly stand version of it. Lesser players than him have had their numbers retired, and for a team desperate for tradition in their 40th season might as well start somewhere.

Naslund ushered in an era of success and turned Vancouver into a big market team from one that was barely drawing 10k fans and under the very real threat of relocation. Sure he never brought us the cup, but the fact that we considered ourselves on par with teams like Detroit and Toronto in the pre-salary cap days is testament to the impact he had on this franchise.

Did he develop the same rapport with the fans that Linden and Smyl did? No. However, he put up more points, served as captain longer and had the same number of cup wins as both of them. Take away the cup runs and Linden and Smyl are no more important than Orland Kurtenbach in Canucks history.

So congratulations to Nazzy, he got me into this team and for that I'm eternally grateful. 02/03 was the closest we've ever come to a cup in my dedicated hockey watching life, and I'll never forget how exciting and dominating the WCE was that year. Maybe if the stars had aligned slightly better we'd have a lone cup banner in our rafters. However, that's not what's important about Naslund. He ushered in an era of success and significance that put this team on the hockey map, and we're still seeing dividends from it today with high profile free agents choosing to sign with us.

I'm looking forward to seeing #19 hanging besides #16 and #19. All three deserve to be there for different reasons, but all three deserve to be there nonetheless.

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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by ClamRussel » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:27 pm

DonCherry4PM wrote:Check your facts.

He left for the Rangers at a time when nearly the entirety of the fickle Vancouver fans had turned on him and were all over his back about how he didn't deserve the the contract he had (when he could have signed for much more in another city when making that contract), how he wasn't a good captain, how he no longer cared about the game, etc. Don't really understand how you expect the guy to stay under those circumstances. I don't think he even received an offer so your complaint is a bit less than fair.
Perhaps you have selective memory but his play was BRUTAL in his last couple of seasons here...in fact right about the time AV came onboard. Nazzy tried to add a defensive element to his game and was backchecking for the first time, doing what AV wanted and his offensive game went south. That said, it seemed there were injuries involved, his shot had disappeared etc BUT you could see it in his face; his spirit was beaten down and he clearly wasn't into it whatsoever. No emotion whatsoever. Now perhaps some of this had to do w/ the Moore incident as well....and maybe that injury he sustained when Moore took him out....hurt his elbow and a concussion....we may never know what happened. Things were definitely not the same again. It was tough watching him go through the motions and I think fans had a right to get on his case; if he was even trying then I'd agree with you but he clearly wasn't.

Now I agree w/ you he never got a contract (as far as we know) offer and perhaps MG knew it was time to move on. Hell; the last contract was a mistake and Nonis should have gone w/ Niedermayer who was in play that time. I don't blame Naslund for leaving here when he did; no one should....but I do think the criticism of his lacklustre play here is fair. Even if he wasn't getting along w/ AV and didn't like the system it sure looked like he quit on his team. Like Bure, he was a superstar player but his last few years here sort of taint all the good he did. If things had ended better BOTH he and Bure should have their jerseys retired. As it is; I'm ok w/ Naslund having his number retired but he is clearly not in the same league as Linden & Smyl. I don't care about that points as much as I care about the heart & soul...it was their drive that played huge parts in the both Cup runs. Those runs were magical and in comparison the WCE blew a tire, like it or not that plays a role in how leadership is viewed.

That said it doesn't have to be a 'is Naslund as revered as Linden & Smyl to have his number retired' issue?

No it doesn't. Are all the Habs retired numbers as revered as Maurice Richard? I think not. Should Naslund have his number retired in Vancouver. The more I think about it the more I like it. Yes. Good for you Markus, thanks for the good years and that spectacular wrist shot!

Stan Smyl 12
Trevor Linden 16
Markus Naslund 19

Looks good on them. Looking at how all our retired numbers are between 10 & 20 we're going to have to live alot more non-traditional numbers for forwards in the future. Now when are the Canucks going to do the right thing and retire the one they PROMISED would never be worn again. Its not too late to right a wrong. The Canucks "unretiring" that number for Messier was a bad bad omen. Perhaps it needs the ritual of an official retirement; his family would appreciate it and hopefully it will make amends for a broken promise.

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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by ClamRussel » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:33 pm

levelheaded wrote:Take away the cup runs and Linden and Smyl are no more important than Orland Kurtenbach in Canucks history.
You can't play "what ifs" with history. Take away their Stanley Cup and Mark Messier is no more important than Ron Greschner in Rangers history. Take away that game 7 victory against the Devils and Messier's "guarantee" doesn't happen and gone is one of the greatest moments in all of sports for team leadership. The bottom line is both those things happened and so did Linden & Smyl's Cup runs. IF Naslund had gone beyond the 2nd round just once w/ the Canucks there would be no debate. Alas it never happened. He will be seen as a solid offensive producer for the Canucks, he will never be seen as a great leader. Its just the way it is and should be accepted as Naslund should be accepted for the player he was.
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by Cornuck » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:38 pm

ClamRussel wrote:Now when are the Canucks going to do the right thing and retire the one they PROMISED would never be worn again. Its not too late to right a wrong. The Canucks "unretiring" that number for Messier was a bad bad omen. Perhaps it needs the ritual of an official retirement; his family would appreciate it and hopefully it will make amends for a broken promise.

Wayne Maki 11
Great point Clam - and doing that during the 40th year hoopla would be perfect.
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by levelheaded » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:34 am

ClamRussel wrote:
levelheaded wrote:Take away the cup runs and Linden and Smyl are no more important than Orland Kurtenbach in Canucks history.
You can't play "what ifs" with history. Take away their Stanley Cup and Mark Messier is no more important than Ron Greschner in Rangers history. Take away that game 7 victory against the Devils and Messier's "guarantee" doesn't happen and gone is one of the greatest moments in all of sports for team leadership. The bottom line is both those things happened and so did Linden & Smyl's Cup runs. IF Naslund had gone beyond the 2nd round just once w/ the Canucks there would be no debate. Alas it never happened. He will be seen as a solid offensive producer for the Canucks, he will never be seen as a great leader. Its just the way it is and should be accepted as Naslund should be accepted for the player he was.
The difference being that Messier led his team to the cup. We venerate two players who captained the team on the pair of fairy tale runs this franchise has had. Other than that they were very unremarkable players. Not to take anything away from both of them, I agree they're both a lot more deserving of a number retirement than Naslund, just that he can't be viewed in the same light.

Look at the team before Naslund was named captain. The franchise was at the worst point in its history, Messier had been Captain and half assed it totally, Linden had been traded and public support for the team was at an alltime low. There was a very real possibility that the team would move to the US along with all the other Canadian teams outside of Toronto. Naslund stepped in and instantly started the team down a flashy attacking style of play, and more importantly to wins and playoff appearances. The team went from averaging 10k fans a game to having a wait list for season tickets that is over a decade in length. That is a mighty impressive turnaround in a couple of seasons. We are a legitimate big market team because of the WCE era, and he was the most important part of it. The fact that we can spend to the $60M cap and lure big name free agents to this team is testament to his tenure as the heart and soul of it. Sure we never won anything, but the fact that we could even discuss the possibility while teams like Detroit, Colorado and Toronto could spend $90M on their payroll is incredible.

Naslund may never have won us any cups, but he set us up to remain competitive for the foreseeable future, and that's all you can ask given the situation he stepped into. There's going to be a cup somewhere in the next little while, and I assure you that the reason we win could be traced back to Naslund quite easily...

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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by nucklehead_88 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:53 am

levelheaded wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:
levelheaded wrote:Take away the cup runs and Linden and Smyl are no more important than Orland Kurtenbach in Canucks history.
You can't play "what ifs" with history. Take away their Stanley Cup and Mark Messier is no more important than Ron Greschner in Rangers history. Take away that game 7 victory against the Devils and Messier's "guarantee" doesn't happen and gone is one of the greatest moments in all of sports for team leadership. The bottom line is both those things happened and so did Linden & Smyl's Cup runs. IF Naslund had gone beyond the 2nd round just once w/ the Canucks there would be no debate. Alas it never happened. He will be seen as a solid offensive producer for the Canucks, he will never be seen as a great leader. Its just the way it is and should be accepted as Naslund should be accepted for the player he was.
The difference being that Messier led his team to the cup. We venerate two players who captained the team on the pair of fairy tale runs this franchise has had. Other than that they were very unremarkable players. Not to take anything away from both of them, I agree they're both a lot more deserving of a number retirement than Naslund, just that he can't be viewed in the same light.

Look at the team before Naslund was named captain. The franchise was at the worst point in its history, Messier had been Captain and half assed it totally, Linden had been traded and public support for the team was at an alltime low. There was a very real possibility that the team would move to the US along with all the other Canadian teams outside of Toronto. Naslund stepped in and instantly started the team down a flashy attacking style of play, and more importantly to wins and playoff appearances. The team went from averaging 10k fans a game to having a wait list for season tickets that is over a decade in length. That is a mighty impressive turnaround in a couple of seasons. We are a legitimate big market team because of the WCE era, and he was the most important part of it. The fact that we can spend to the $60M cap and lure big name free agents to this team is testament to his tenure as the heart and soul of it. Sure we never won anything, but the fact that we could even discuss the possibility while teams like Detroit, Colorado and Toronto could spend $90M on their payroll is incredible.

Naslund may never have won us any cups, but he set us up to remain competitive for the foreseeable future, and that's all you can ask given the situation he stepped into. There's going to be a cup somewhere in the next little while, and I assure you that the reason we win could be traced back to Naslund quite easily...


MY GOD! HE'S RIGHT! lol. i gotta agree though, Naslund is a huuuuuuge reason why the Canucks are at where they are today.
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by ClamRussel » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:30 am

levelheaded wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:
levelheaded wrote:Take away the cup runs and Linden and Smyl are no more important than Orland Kurtenbach in Canucks history.
You can't play "what ifs" with history. Take away their Stanley Cup and Mark Messier is no more important than Ron Greschner in Rangers history. Take away that game 7 victory against the Devils and Messier's "guarantee" doesn't happen and gone is one of the greatest moments in all of sports for team leadership. The bottom line is both those things happened and so did Linden & Smyl's Cup runs. IF Naslund had gone beyond the 2nd round just once w/ the Canucks there would be no debate. Alas it never happened. He will be seen as a solid offensive producer for the Canucks, he will never be seen as a great leader. Its just the way it is and should be accepted as Naslund should be accepted for the player he was.
The difference being that Messier led his team to the cup. We venerate two players who captained the team on the pair of fairy tale runs this franchise has had. Other than that they were very unremarkable players. Not to take anything away from both of them, I agree they're both a lot more deserving of a number retirement than Naslund, just that he can't be viewed in the same light.

Look at the team before Naslund was named captain. The franchise was at the worst point in its history, Messier had been Captain and half assed it totally, Linden had been traded and public support for the team was at an alltime low. There was a very real possibility that the team would move to the US along with all the other Canadian teams outside of Toronto. Naslund stepped in and instantly started the team down a flashy attacking style of play, and more importantly to wins and playoff appearances. The team went from averaging 10k fans a game to having a wait list for season tickets that is over a decade in length. That is a mighty impressive turnaround in a couple of seasons. We are a legitimate big market team because of the WCE era, and he was the most important part of it. The fact that we can spend to the $60M cap and lure big name free agents to this team is testament to his tenure as the heart and soul of it. Sure we never won anything, but the fact that we could even discuss the possibility while teams like Detroit, Colorado and Toronto could spend $90M on their payroll is incredible.

Naslund may never have won us any cups, but he set us up to remain competitive for the foreseeable future, and that's all you can ask given the situation he stepped into. There's going to be a cup somewhere in the next little while, and I assure you that the reason we win could be traced back to Naslund quite easily...
Two things sir, you clearly are confusing the Messier era with the Bill LaForge era. No way in hell they were only averaging 10k fans a night during the late 90s. They weren't selling out very often but they were in NO danger of being relocated to the US. Business was tough in those days and the Canucks were fighting the CDN dollar as were every team north of the border. Those made-for-media "all it takes is a quarter" Burke quotes were towards the government when they were trying to get financial support etc. It was a scare tactic. Now the attendance did decline but just not how you remember it and yes Vancouver fans are clearly bandwagon jumpers in terms of people who can afford tickets anyways.

97/98 = 16,986
98/99 = 15,803
99/00 = 14,642
00/01 = 17,017

The turnaround in tix was because the team's results on the ice got better plain & simple. Yes Naslund played a role in that but the team almost made the dance in Messier's last year; it was a huge push. Naslund credits Messier w/ the team's turnaround, do you not believe him? The fans would have come back if Messier had stayed as captain they were clearly on the cusp and Bertuzzi was also just starting to round into shape.

The 2nd thing is, you're really confused as to why a team would retire a number and whether a player deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. It doesn't matter that the Canucks haven't won the Cup in terms of jerseys being retired; those 2 runs WERE magical and mean alot to true Canuck fans. Why does it matter if Smyl & Linden weren't "remarkable" in your opinion? I think they were VERY remarkable players. I'll agree they weren't remarkable offensive wizards sure but is that why we retire a number? Hockey is about much MUCH more than that and there is that intangible you can't put on a score sheet that those 2 players had and they had it in spades. No one ever confused them w/ being superstars however they were also victims of being on very mediocre teams for large parts of their careers. What if Sather had pulled off the deal he wanted and landed Steamer in the early 80s? I've long maintained Stan would be in the HOF now. What if Linden had been traded to Detroit instead of Long Island, how many Cups would he have to his name now? Those 2 guys represented some of the few bright lights we've ever had as Canuck fans and even though we didn't have fancy offence here at least we had work ethic & heart! Thats besides the point; just thought I'd play the what if game a little because often a player is viewed in a way that is appreciated or depreciated because of who he plays with. Look at the all Cup rings Glenn Anderson has compared to the zero Cups Marcel Dionne won. Smyl & Linden having their numbers retired is a no-brainer and its not *just* because of those 2 runs but it sure is part of it. Getting to the finals is easier said than done; just ask the WCE.
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by levelheaded » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:24 am

ClamRussel wrote: 97/98 = 16,986
98/99 = 15,803
99/00 = 14,642
00/01 = 17,017
Having been to a number of games between 97 and now, I can assure you that those numbers are fudged up. I went to a San Jose Vancouver game in 98 or 99 and the stadium was less than half full. I bought tickets in the back of the upper bowl, but walked almost all the way down to the front. The lower bowl was just as bad. 14k sounds on the high side to me, I guess teams like Toronto still drew, but there were a lot of games where people didn't even vaguely care to watch.

I'd agree on the second point, I don't think stats should determine whether a player's number is retired. Pierre Turgeon is one of the highest scoring forwards ever, but I'd be sickened if his number hang in the rafters somewhere. However, the only thing that separates Linden and Smyl from any other Canuck captain is their cup runs. Sure it's not easy to get there, but I can assure you that if they'd never got there it's unlikely their numbers are retired. 82 and 94 are huge moments in our history, and deserve to be commemorated as such, but it's not like Linden and Smyl were incredible players. They developed a rapport with the fans that stemmed from the modicum of success they led us to. Naslund had less success on the ice, but more in reestablishing the Canucks as a lasting franchise and brand. Is there one thing you can point at for Naslund and say he deserves to get his number retired for? No, but there's not one thing you can point at that suggests he deserves it any less than Smyl or Linden outside of a fluke cup run.

Let me put it this way, would you find it weird to see another Canuck wearing #19 like it would to see someone wearing #12 or #16? I know I would.

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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by Jelly » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:30 am

I started following hockey when I came to Vancouver in 94 from Hong Kong, and I can tell you that 19 doesn't mean anything to me in a Canucks uniform, because 19 didn't matter, he didn't leave everything on the ice like 12 and 16.

Heck, I'd retire 7 before 19, Mo gave everything and then some. But I'm whacked
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by nucklehead_88 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:57 am

Jelly wrote:I started following hockey when I came to Vancouver in 94 from Hong Kong, and I can tell you that 19 doesn't mean anything to me in a Canucks uniform, because 19 didn't matter, he didn't leave everything on the ice like 12 and 16.

Heck, I'd retire 7 before 19, Mo gave everything and then some. But I'm whacked

yuo would retire 7.....and under morrisons name? Cliff Ronning did more for the team than BMo did
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by Tiger » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:29 pm

Means nothing.. unless you want it to.. Naslund lacked the " balls " factor of Smyl and Linden.. Lots of scoring but not much else really.. #! for excitement = Bure .. #1 for aggression = Tiger ..Great leadership = Smyl and Linden - who lead by example. Scoring leaders = Bure, Mogilny and then Naslund .. Nobody talking about retiring Bure' ?? Or the only Canuck to have broken and set an all time record - Tiger Williams 80-81 Top goal scorer and top in penalty minutes and made the All star team .. No he doesn't get my vote for " retirement " either :) The 2 leaders that took the Canucks to the finals do ! Maybe its good PR to put Naslunds up there too ? dunno ..
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by LotusBlossom » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:57 pm

I will be there when they hang up that banner, and I will be smiling for someone who gave all he could to this team and to this community.

I've always said that just because the HOF stats aren't there, it isn't a mark of 'mediocrity'. Smyl and Linden left their own mark on this team and on the fans and so did Markus Naslund.

I'm with Cornuck, if they don't hang Markus' 19 up there, they don't hang anyone's.


Congrats to Markus Naslund and good on Canucks management for giving him his due.
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Re: Naslund Jersey Retirement, like? dislike?

Post by Fred » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:04 pm

I enjoyed the year Naslund played in Vcr........... but I cannot seperate the fact that Gillis wa his agent for years, It shouldn't be a factor but it is. Not good for Naslund and it doesn't look good on Gillis either
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