Farhan's random $0.02 (i.e. help other team sign Sundin?!)

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Farhan Lalji

Farhan's random $0.02 (i.e. help other team sign Sundin?!)

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Farhan's random $0.02 (i.e. help other team sign Sundin?!)

Hey all,

Hope your summer is going well. It's 40 degrees celcius from where I'm posting and so I thought I'd post some random thoughts:

A) If Sundin isn't destined to come here then do you think it would be a wise move on Gillis' part to HELP a team (that's actually in the running for Sundin) to clear cap space to accomodate Sundin? In other words - If a team like the Rangers want Sundin (but need to clear cap space), perhaps the Canucks can deal with them and help them out? (and land a guy like Drury or Gomez in the process). Just a thought:

B) I was originally disappointed at the idea of Gillis going after Parish. However - if the price is right, then I guess wouldn't mind. Parish might be useless in most areas, but I could tolerate him if he consistently produced on the power play (with a low salary).

C) I had a good chuckle at the THN (or whoever it was?) rankings the other day. The Canucks were pegged at #11 while a team like the Wild was at #3. I'm not so sure why the Wild are ranked that high (unless they're confusing Owen Nolan with Alex Ovechkin?). As far as MY prediction goes - I think this current Canuck team is an 8th place team (which will lose in 6-7 games in the 1st round). Demitra is an upgrade on Morrison in my opinion, while Bernier should be a better fit with the twins than Naslund. I don't expect our defense to be decimated with injuries as they were last year either. Furthermore - I think both Bieksa (better health) and Luongo (no off-ice distractions.....knock on wood) will have bounce back seasons.

If the Canucks land Sundin, I think we'll be 4th in the conference (3rd round playoff appearance). Having said that - I don't think the Canucks will land Sundin (if he was interested, he would have signed here already I believe), while this CURRENT Canuck team will NOT be the team the Canucks head into the season with.

D) What would YOU rather have? A superstar goalie (i.e. Luongo, Kipper, Brodeur) that plays spectacularly ALL season long (salary would be about 7 million+ per season) OR a goalie, with average/above average ability, that plays exceptionally well when it matters most (salary for this type of goalie would be 3-4 mill per season). Case in point - Dwayne Roloson a few years ago. Between 1995 and 2004 (in a non salary cap era), having a superstar goalie was almost an absolute necessity. In today's NHL however, with a salary cap, is there a risk involved in signing/trading for a "top 3 goalie in the NHL?"

Can a valid argument be made that teams should NOT go after a top 3 superstar goalie, UNLESS they have young prospects/kids waiting in the wings that can substantially overachieve?

E) No way I pay the Sedin twins 7 million a piece. 6 million tops. If they don't accept, I say move em' (unless they actually show an ability to "step up" when it matters most). What's the point in getting 80 points a season if only 4-6 of those are in "important" games when the team needs you the most? I'm still disgusted at how the twins disappeared during the final stretch last year.

F) I am NOT a fan of Veenyo. I think his Jack Adams award from 2 seasons ago was a fluke....as he basically won that due to riding the coattails of a scorching Luongo. Last season - Veenyo (retardadly) publicly outed Mitchell (riddled with injuries) and Luongo (wife pregnancy complications). Despite Linden proving himself to be a clutch player in the 06/07 playoffs, Veenyo did NOT give Linden a fair chance during the final stretch. Why Veenyo played Luongo in the FINAL game of the season is beyond me.

I think Veenyo's presence and style of play will potentiall scare away offensive stars from signing here. If you ask me? Fire Veenyo - hire Pat Quinn. Quinn is loved and respected around the league.

G) A few nicknames I thought of (just incase some our beloved Canucks...or potential future Canucks....start to underachieve).

-Darcy Hordischmuck
-Kyle Deadwood
-Mark Perish
-Roberto Luongone (I'm assuming next season...if the Canucks suck...and Luongo is destined to sign elsewhere as a UFA, this name might catch on).
-Messier II (If Sundin comes here and underachieves).
-Demi(tra) Moore (Ok...this was one was kind of lame....but what else can I do on such a hot freakin' day?).

H) IF the Canucks are destined to move a blue-liner for offensive help, I wonder what Mattias Ohlund (our best defenseman) could fetch us?....especially as part of a package. This all of course, is if Ohlund was willing to waive his NTC.

I) If the Canucks can't get Sundin, then what about Patrick Marleau? Marleau is in the final year of his contract, and will probably leave SJ anyways. It might not take too much to get him.

J) Are Brendan Shanahan and Teemu Selanne still available? If so - would a 1 year 5 million dollar offer to each guy be ludicrous? Shanahan might be 40 years old, but you can't put a price tag on the leadership that he would provide.

K) Jason Alexander (a.k.a. George Kastanza) should be Penguin in the next Batman movie. (kidding ;)). Brock Lesnar could be Bain, Johnny Depp = Riddler, Angelina Jolie = Catwoman. I'm kidding. In all seriousness - Jack Black = Penguin?!
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Post by jchockey »

a) It's not necessarily helping, but rather taking advantage of a golden opportunity. The Rangers have some interesting players worth a look, but their roster is also filled with a bunch of players that earn roughly $1m/year, and should they dump salary it'd have to be a package of those players or Paul Mara. I hardly think the Rangers will part with Gomez and Drury after on season.

b) I find it tough to believe that any team will offer Parrish anything long-term. He's a decent forward, all things considered, just unfortunate that the numbers he put up didn't justify his $3m salary. He'll be an extra big body, and he is better than Isbister.

c) The west got better, if that may even seem possible. The Hawks will be better, the Coyotes have improved loads and loads, and the Wings just got even better. With our current roster we won't get a sniff of playoff hockey unless Luongo returns to his MVP form.

d) There's a valid argument for both cases, but it's just that, statistically speaking and ability wise, Luongo has a better chance of catching fire than Roloson.

e) The Sedins have pulled this disappearing act for quite some time. If things don't look bright by February I say we trade them too. The problem is finding a good return, considering we don't really have any top flight talents to take over their spots on the first line. Grabner, Hodgson, and White are all years away from being top line material.

f) Quinn is more respected, but I fail to see how he would implement a different system from AV's. Your system is only as good as your players, and I doubt Quinn would right the ship with this current squad. I'm not a big fan of AV either, after some questionable decisions about healthy scratches, but I want to see what he can do with brand new players... and his new offensive system.

g) Deadwood's my favourite.

h) Salo or Bieksa would be my first choice to go. I like Ohlund, he's lost a step but I think he's a great presence on our blueline. Not a big talker but he does his job.

i) Marleau has a no-trade clause that kicked in after July 1st. The Sharks are on the hook for two more years.

j) For Selanne it's Ducks or nothing, same with Sakic and the Avs. Shanahan wants to remain a Blueshirt, and I doubt he'd come out west, unless it was for Detroit.

k) I still prefer Philip Seymour Hoffman as the Penguin. The guy's kinda scary already.
Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

jchockey wrote:
d) There's a valid argument for both cases, but it's just that, statistically speaking and ability wise, Luongo has a better chance of catching fire than Roloson.

.
Hey,

Great overall reply - I just wanted to comment on this particular response however.

Just to be clear - I don't think the Canucks should trade for Roloson in a MILLION years. Too old and pretty much washed up. I only used Roloson as an EXAMPLE of a goalie that is NOT top-tier but consistently played like a top tier goalie when it mattered most.

Other examples of what I'm talking about
-Kirk McLean 1994
-Mike Vernon 1997
-Cam Ward 2006
-JS Giguerre 2003

etc, etc.

In my opinion, all of these guys are very very good goalies, but are not in the class of guys like Martin Brodeur, Mikka Kiprasoff, and Roberto Luongo. The latter 3 will play tremendously ALL YEAR. The goalies on my "list" are goalies that will be far more inconsistent (either within the season itself, or within 'X' amount of years).

Here's my point:

What good is a superstar goalie, if

A) You do not have good enough prospects to "step up" and overachieve (which somewhat compensates the huge salary being offerred to the superstar goalie).
B) You simply do not have enough overall talent up front.


On the other hand....

A) What if you had a goalie that had a TRACK RECORD for elevating his game come playoff time (despite the fact that he shows greater inconsistencies during the regular season).

B) What if you paid less money for a "very very good" goalie (one with a track record of playoff success), and still had many left over to shore up other areas?

For example - let's say a Roberto Luongo for JS Giguerre package was offerred. Luongo is a younger and superior goalie to Giguerre. However - what if the Ducks offerred Giguerre and Beauchaman? Or Giguerre and Perry?

What if a team like NYR offerred Henrik Lunquist and ???

You get the point. I'm not a fan of trading Luongo (he's my current favorite Canuck, and my 3rd favourite Canuck of all-time behind Bure and Momesso), but I certainly don't think he's an untouchable either.
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Post by Mikodat »

<i> Demitra is an upgrade on Morrison in my opinion </i> Mo is a decent center.. Demitra a decent winger... no comparison.. Thats where the Canucks are weakest and why we are offering Sundin the big bucks. Not wingers . .. but Centers are our shortfall.. with Linden gone and Mo.. all we got is Deadwood , Sedin and Kesler plus Moose bait .. :(.... Our D is significantly lessened with the passing of Luc Bourdon... and the aging of Ohlund.. Trade Luongo? kind of a big step backwards...
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Post by the toucan kid »

Well one thing's for sure, I don't think it will take us long to all be in agreement about Deadwood...
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Post by levelheaded »

the toucan kid wrote:Well one thing's for sure, I don't think it will take us long to all be in agreement about Deadwood...
Eh... he doesn't have very high expectations from me, so anything he does will be a surprise. Plus it's only a one year deal so if he sucks we can ditch him in 12 months (like Bulis, Isbister, Ritchie etc.) I think the one the fans will find a lot more fault with is the 3 year deal for Hordichuk (Horridchuk perhaps?). I mean Cowan was bad enough at 2 years, Hordichuk has essentially the same money for a longer period of time.

But hey, if he does suck at least Aquaman can make some of his money back by hiring him out as a children's entertainer. :P

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Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Mikodat wrote:<i> Demitra is an upgrade on Morrison in my opinion </i> Mo is a decent center.. Demitra a decent winger... no comparison.. Thats where the Canucks are weakest and why we are offering Sundin the big bucks. Not wingers . .. but Centers are our shortfall.. with Linden gone and Mo.. all we got is Deadwood , Sedin and Kesler plus Moose bait .. :(.... Our D is significantly lessened with the passing of Luc Bourdon... and the aging of Ohlund.. Trade Luongo? kind of a big step backwards...
Hmmm..

Although Demitra has played wing on numerous occassions, I was under the impression that he usually plays center. During his superstar days in St. Louis, I think he was the center between Tkachuk and Mellanby.
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Post by Farhan Lalji »

Few more tidbits:

A) If I was Veenyo, I'd have Burrows-Kesler-Hordichuk as the 3rd line. IMO - that 3rd line could easily be one of the most annoying shutdown lines to play against in the NHL. Burrows-Kesler-Pyatt would probably be the equivalent of a "lukewarm" 2nd scoring line.

B) I mentioned this awhile back but assuming that the Canucks get Sundin (and assuming that Demitra actually *is* a better play when he plays the center ice position), I was wondering if the Canucks should have H.Sedin, Sundin, Demitra, and Kesler center 4 different lines. To me - this would be the equivalent of what the Wings did 10-11 years ago when they had Yzerman-Larionov-Fedorov-Draper. If guys like Raymond or Grabner (or whoever) "step up", then it could give the Canucks 3 potentally decent scoring lines (plus Kesler's awesome shut down line).
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Post by Badfish »

no time, but Demitra has played both wing and C but has expressed his desire to play Wing, I believe...
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Post by jchockey »

Farhan Lalji wrote: Other examples of what I'm talking about
-Kirk McLean 1994
-Mike Vernon 1997
-Cam Ward 2006
-JS Giguerre 2003

etc, etc.

In my opinion, all of these guys are very very good goalies, but are not in the class of guys like Martin Brodeur, Mikka Kiprasoff, and Roberto Luongo. The latter 3 will play tremendously ALL YEAR. The goalies on my "list" are goalies that will be far more inconsistent (either within the season itself, or within 'X' amount of years).
JS Giguere is completely underrated. I think his tag as a "big pad" goalie is unfair, and if you look at his numbers they stay consistent pre- and post-lockout - I actually think he posted better numbers after the rule changes. He is one of the better goalies in the West and should not be considered second-tier at all. Cam Ward will also have a much more decorated career than Vernon or McLean, in my opinion. As a side note, I think the Conn Smythe should've went to Brind'Amour, and not Ward. He was overhyped to start his sophomore season and flopped.
A) You do not have good enough prospects to "step up" and overachieve (which somewhat compensates the huge salary being offerred to the superstar goalie).
B) You simply do not have enough overall talent up front.
Good points, but whether or not you have good enough prospects to step up and overachieve is irrelevant to how good your goalie is. For the Canucks, it was never a problem about prospects stepping up - Hansen last year and Raymond/Edler this year - it was just our stars never seem to show up. Even when the Ducks' kids stepped up, Pronger, Niedermayer, McDonald, and Selanne all stepped up and equally well, if not better.

Having little scoring talent up front negates the fact that you have an all-star goalie, something that has plagued the Canucks. You can't win if you can't score, but you've seen how many one-goal games we've won, and that's what Luongo can do for you that Cloutier couldn't.
A) What if you had a goalie that had a TRACK RECORD for elevating his game come playoff time (despite the fact that he shows greater inconsistencies during the regular season).

B) What if you paid less money for a "very very good" goalie (one with a track record of playoff success), and still had many left over to shore up other areas?
To my knowledge, I don't think there's been such a goalie, or even a scenario in which a team dealt for a hot goalie at the deadline. Most teams that have stayed in playoff contention for most of the season will have their goalie problems figured out by the deadline, and will finish the season with their backup playing virtually zero games. Each and every year there's always one goalie that seems to just turn it up a notch, and it's always the most surprising guy, which makes the playoffs that much harder to predict. Who knew the Oilers and Canes would meet that year?

The bigger question is, how much is a "very very good" goalie? And who is considered to be a "very very good" goalie?
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Post by rockalt »

jchockey wrote:
The bigger question is, how much is a "very very good" goalie? And who is considered to be a "very very good" goalie?
Exactly. If we can say that Kipper, Luongo, & Brodeur are the best 3 goalies in the NHL then that leaves some pretty talented and expensive goalies in the next tier. It's not like you're going to get Nabokov or Lundqvist PLUS a guy like Marleau or Drury. At the same time, those two goalies already earn a pretty hefty salary anyway, so is it worth it to downgrade?

For the record, I think those two goalies are excellent but consider Luongo the best goalie in the game, hence the "downgrade." Very good goalies dont' grow on trees and it's hard to know who's going to be the next one. Are we willing to gamble again by dealing Luongo for a potentially very good goalie and prospects? You know Cloutier was touted as a future star goalie at one point and based off his numbers, was a legitimate candidate to "step up" before his playoff meltdown.

I'm just not willing to give up the best goalie in franchise history. I don't care how highly touted Schneider is. If you have a chance to resign Luongo to a long term contract, I think you take it and then trade Schneider away for more help. Even if Schneider pans out completely, it's not like he's going to get any better than Luongo. Following this route would be like the New York Islanders Rick Dipietro strategy. Why bank on a young goalie who COULD be elite when you already have one in your system?

Please note that obviously if the team sucks and Luongo indicates that he's unhappy, then yes of course, you have to bite the bullet and trade him and bank on Schneider. Fair enough. Otherwise, I think it's Luongo or bust.
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Post by Cornuck »

Since we're playing armchair GM, the Caps are also over the cap.

I'd love to see Backstrom in the Orca, and maybe there's something we can offer the Caps in the way of prospects or low budget fodder?
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Post by Doyle Hargraves »

[quote="levelheaded"]

I think the one the fans will find a lot more fault with is the 3 year deal for Hordichuk (Horridchuk perhaps?). I mean Cowan was bad enough at 2 years, Hordichuk has essentially the same money for a longer period of time.



I don't know.........at least Hordichuk can win a few fights. Cowan gets the piss kicked out of him on a regular basis.
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Post by jchockey »

Cornuck wrote:Since we're playing armchair GM, the Caps are also over the cap.

I'd love to see Backstrom in the Orca, and maybe there's something we can offer the Caps in the way of prospects or low budget fodder?
I doubt the Caps will part with Backstrom unless we offered Luongo and took Theodore's new contract in return, and even then it's very unlikely. They've been brining along Backstrom for Ovechkin, and I doubt they'll give up on that project now.
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Post by Doyle Hargraves »

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
levelheaded wrote:
I think the one the fans will find a lot more fault with is the 3 year deal for Hordichuk (Horridchuk perhaps?). I mean Cowan was bad enough at 2 years, Hordichuk has essentially the same money for a longer period of time.



I don't know.........at least Hordichuk can win a few fights. Cowan gets the piss kicked out of him on a regular basis.
And if we have less injuries due to teams not clobbering our D-men around the ice like Indian rubber balls as often, then three years at 750 is a cheap price to pay. At least Hordichuk is somewhat of a dterrent. Cowan was a punching bag that few were scared of.
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