Vancouver Sports Media - A Rant

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sic puppy
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Post by sic puppy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:49 pm

mattola wrote: since when were players held to that scrutiny. They still get their checks regardless of behaviour or play.
What does receiving a cheque have anything to do with it ?
mattola wrote: I wouldnt compare those too.

at least reporters can get fired..... (HELLO PRATT)
When was the last time you saw a media person held to account by those that "watch their product" compared to the drivel that some write ad nauseum (sp) about some players ?

I don't mean a thread like the one that put Pratt in his place for plagerism. Something that goes on for days (and sometimes a season).

And if you don't think players get "fired", check out some of the players who didn't get contracts renewed or got traded (or benched).

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Post by Kowch » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:17 pm

Madcombinepilot wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think everyone on this board knows my personal feelings on Vancouver media, but the question I have is this:

Who really is to blame?
The media for being (mostly) uneducated, loud mouthed, rumor mongering, semi-slanderous, panic generating, lazy writers/reporters ....
or the (mostly) uneducted, loud mouthed, rumor hungry, semi slanderous, panic needing, lazy fans?

one feeds the other crap, while the other seems to have a crap need......
Honestly, it's both.

The fans need to wise up and demand better from their local sports writers.

The sport writers should have a certain level of professionalism and in a home city should at least try to look at the positives of the home team - not tearing it to shreds before it's even hit the playing surface. The self defeatism thats' prevailing in Vancouver is really astounding. Even here in Atlanta the beat writer (well, there might be two people writing about hockey... I"ll have to look) are at least trying to put the team in a positive light.

Now the reason there's differences may be many... Vancouver is a hockey market; Atlanta is not. Vancouver sells out and has sold out for many years; Atlanta can only sell out when one of the other big teams (Toronto, Detroit, Ottawa, NYR etc) come to town. In Vancouver, hockey is king... it's what everyone watches. After that is the Lions, then maybe the Giants; as I pointed previously it's about the Falcons here... then the Braves... then the Hawks... then the Thrashers... that's if there isn't a Nascar event or maybe a truck pull.

That's not to say there aren't fans here. Hockey fans, regardless of location are the most rabid, most loyal fans of any sport. However down here, they probably have to be a little nicer in order to help draw fans to the sports whereas back home, people will regardless of what the retards from the Province and Sun print.

What really needs to happen is the masses need to start demanding more accountability from the people at the local papers. I realize it's a hockey mad market, and it's slow right now because it's the offseason... but still...

And yes, I know it's a pipe dream. It's never going to happen.

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Post by mattola » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:25 pm

sic puppy wrote:
mattola wrote: since when were players held to that scrutiny. They still get their checks regardless of behaviour or play.
What does receiving a cheque have anything to do with it ?
mattola wrote: I wouldnt compare those too.

at least reporters can get fired..... (HELLO PRATT)
When was the last time you saw a media person held to account by those that "watch their product" compared to the drivel that some write ad nauseum (sp) about some players ?

I don't mean a thread like the one that put Pratt in his place for plagerism. Something that goes on for days (and sometimes a season).

And if you don't think players get "fired", check out some of the players who didn't get contracts renewed or got traded (or benched).
fair enough

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Post by JCardinal » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:28 am

I see people complain all the time here about the "media" but I rarely see anyone post about what they would actually like to see in place of what we have now.

Let's face facts, it's the off season, there really isn't much to write about at the moment and even when there is it's really just a small story that could as easily be a single paragraph.

In other words this time of the year you have to expect a little padding to go on, there's nothing factual to write about that's *news* so there has to be a lot of speculation and shit disturbing going on. Those writers need to prove that they contribute to selling papers every day, their job is at stake if they become irrelevant.

I don't read the paper, I don't know anybody who reads the papers but then I live on the island and we really don't give a shit about what happens in Vancouver or anywhere in the lower mainland unless it's sports related or a major crime of some kind so we can point and laugh and be grateful we don't live there. I see the articles from time to time online but that's about it. To me they are as close to irrelevant in this modern age as you can get. Now if those guys had a proper blog I'd probably be all over it.

I'm not trying to justify shitty rumour mongering, I'm just saying what do you expect given the conditions would be different and what do you suggest *should* be in those papers instead?

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Post by Cornuck » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:19 am

What they could do is :

provide more coverage to other sports - especially the ones that are currently in season.

provide more coverage to amateur sports

provide insight into the upcoming Olympics

provide more single in-depth articles that actually involve them doing some research or interviews

provide some personal background to the new players we've acquired.

etc etc

That they rely on making shit up says a lot about them, and as others have mentioned, the audience that they write for.
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Post by Kowch » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:21 am

So because it's slow season it's okay to just write whatever they feel like and rip the team to shreds? Interesting...

I believe I pointed out I'd rather they try go to after the positives and have constructive criticism as opposed to straight out rumor mongering and shitty "journalism". There used to be a modicum of professionalism and integrity that came along with writing for a major publication. It’s not like they were writing for the Gabriola Sounder or the Nanaimo Free Press.

They’re using the paper like a blog and the editors should be ashamed of it.

The articles coming out of Vancouver towards Demitra (for example) are really dumb. The last couple of years he’s been stuck in Minnesota under Lemaires system. If you listen to the conference call after the signing (and funny, I haven’t seen this written anywhere… even though I think it was one of the retard sport writers that asked the question) you’d hear Demitra comment that centers in Minnesota were specifically required to play defense. He plays an offensive style. Perhaps that could have something to do with a production drop off since leaving St. Louis?

So rather than wait until, you know, he actually plays a full few games in a Canuck uniform, Gallagher, Willis and MacIntyre are already degrading him. How about his positives?

Hell, our roster isn’t even set yet. We don’t even know who exactly he’ll be playing with. Yet all is doom and gloom before a single game has been played.

So sorry JCardinal… I don’t dismiss the media with a wave. I’m one of those people that want greater accountability from the media. I think that’s what everyone should be demanding… rather than putting up with National Enquirer style slander.

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Post by sk8er » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:13 am

I used to subscribe to the province just so I could read every little tidbit about the Canucks. I could take the paper to work and read it on my breaks and really digest it. then slowly but surely EVERY thing about the team began to be written in the negative. Not too bad at first and it seemed like constructive criticism..
Now it has degenerated to nothing short of rumor mongering, doom and gloom. Galligoof is the first one I stopped reading as i couldn't get past his constant negative whining. Now the others are just as bad.
They are all pissy because their precious little sensibilities were upset over the nonis firing and the Gillis hiring.
Well folks, its done, its a fact of life, deal with it and move on, but no ,they continue to tear Gillis and his methods apart in freakin' JULY!
They don't even give him until the season starts, or heaven forbid one or two months into it.
They are all pathetic and I cancelled my subscription a couple years ago.

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Post by JCardinal » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:54 am

Kowch wrote: The articles coming out of Vancouver towards Demitra (for example) are really dumb. The last couple of years he’s been stuck in Minnesota under Lemaires system. If you listen to the conference call after the signing (and funny, I haven’t seen this written anywhere… even though I think it was one of the retard sport writers that asked the question) you’d hear Demitra comment that centers in Minnesota were specifically required to play defense. He plays an offensive style. Perhaps that could have something to do with a production drop off since leaving St. Louis?

So rather than wait until, you know, he actually plays a full few games in a Canuck uniform, Gallagher, Willis and MacIntyre are already degrading him. How about his positives?

Hell, our roster isn’t even set yet. We don’t even know who exactly he’ll be playing with. Yet all is doom and gloom before a single game has been played.

So sorry JCardinal… I don’t dismiss the media with a wave. I’m one of those people that want greater accountability from the media. I think that’s what everyone should be demanding… rather than putting up with National Enquirer style slander.
Ok, I haven't read any of those columns in a while so I went and took a look at the Gallagher column on Demitra and I call bullshit on this tearing apart the Canucks and Demitra thing you're ranting about (at least with Gallagher who was hinted at being the worst), from his column:
Say what you will about Mike Gillis's approach, but it would appear that the sky is not falling quite yet. No other GM could have seized a player of Demitra's ability at this stage in his career on a two-year deal.

In fact it all seemed quite reasonable and well thought out and interesting on top of it.

I'm going to hunt down the other columns from the Sun and see what they have to say, but so far I'm not getting your point at all.

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Post by JCardinal » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:58 am

Kowch wrote: The articles coming out of Vancouver towards Demitra (for example) are really dumb. The last couple of years he’s been stuck in Minnesota under Lemaires system. If you listen to the conference call after the signing (and funny, I haven’t seen this written anywhere… even though I think it was one of the retard sport writers that asked the question) .
Vancouver Sun July 10th:

""I'm confident he can do it for two years and I feel very good about it."

Demitra is equally confident. Speaking on a conference call from his hometown of Trencin, the 206-pounder expects his production will increase dramatically now that he's escaped Lemaire's clutches.

"I know what I can do and I know I can definitely do much more than I did in Minnesota," Demitra declared. "Every time I played centre in Minnesota, I always had to stay back. That's why my numbers were like that."

"

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Post by JCardinal » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:06 pm

Kowch wrote: So sorry JCardinal… I don’t dismiss the media with a wave. I’m one of those people that want greater accountability from the media. I think that’s what everyone should be demanding… rather than putting up with National Enquirer style slander.
Nope, sorry, just read a bunch of Macintyre's stuff on the sun to catch up to what this is all about. I don't see any ripping to shreds that you proclaim. I see some realistic criticism, some constructive criticism and some out right positivity.

"Gillis makes birdie, back to even par with Demitra
By IAIN MacINTYRE If the National Hockey League were a golf tournament, the Vancouver Canucks just got back to even par. It's a tough tournament -- even par probably makes the cut and a few under might win. But even par doesn't win, which is why general manager Mike Gillis needs at least one and possibly two more significant pieces after signing Pavol Demitra on Thursday
"

I mean, there isn't much to disagree with in that is there?

I'm sorry but I don't accept your point and I think the arguments you see here villifying the "media" are looking increasingly ridiculous. I personally villify that guy who went to Bertuzzi's house a few years ago and ambushed his wife right after the Moore incident (note, he wasn't a sports reporter). Aside from that I see nothing worth bitching about to this degree.

Do they get it wrong sometimes: no question. Do they sensationalize at times: again, no question. Is the reporting accurate: yes. Are the opininion pieces (which are not News or Reporting and are a staple of newspapers since shortly after the printing press was invented) full of opinions: hell yes.

So what?

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Post by Badfish » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:56 pm

As someone who has actually read the Vancouver papers on a semi-consistant basis up untill the last 6 months, I've got to agree with the majority of the posters here. JC, catching up on a few articles is one thing, reading the slop day in day out is another. Maybe when dissected individually they're not outright negative, but it's the overtones that you can see when strung together over time. There were a few I didn't mind, Ed Willis was at least the most posative it seemed. But more and more it feels like a tabloid. Pump out as many shitty articles as you can as fast as you can, make headlines, create controversy, grab a few quick quotes to throw in and you've done you're article for the day. Sure you can choose a few lines from some articles and say it's all bullshit, but I say again as someone who read the papers in Vancouver on a semi-regular basis, it's not.

As I said Here It would be nice if we could somehow go back to having reporters actually spend time on their articles, go out and do some research from various sources, spend time thinking about the piece and then submitting a really, well thought out, thought prokovking article. Hard to do, true. Possible? Maybe not. But that's good journalism imo. It's not going to the post-game press confrence, grabbing a few quotes and slapping it all together in time to get out for the weekend, ala a certain un-named ...well you get the jist. Obviously a post-game article can't be done in this way, but opinion pieces sure can, same with most articles. I'm sure there are a million reasons why this can't or won't happen, one being the fact that the majority of people seem to eat this shit up anyways. Call me old fashioned I guess. It's just that right now, in the middle of summer, there's no excuses really to not put some time and thought into some of these articles. Did we really need 5 articles on Demitra in the first week after his signing, or could one or two of those have taken a bit more time, done some research and given us a nice write-up on the who the guy is, what's his story, etc? Or am I jumping the gun and maybe those articles are still to come in the next week or two? Prove me wrong Province, please!

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Post by dr.dork » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:37 pm

I read the Sun every day, and I agree there is never any in depth analysis of anything (hockey related). They are writing to (and at) a grade 3 level.

And yes, they are bagging on Gillis so they can (after the fact, when he is ultimately fired whether in 2 or 12 years) say "I told you so". The game really is all about the reporter being the story rather than the reporter conveying the story.

The other problem is that the quality went south (in a hurry) when the province and the sun essentially became the same paper.

Having said all that, there are still in depth articles and article series from time to time that are relatively well researched (it would seem). But these are not hockey related articles.

Team1040 and people like Pratt are even lower in quality (and that is an understatement), and I very rarely listen to either.

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Post by JCardinal » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:55 pm

While I don't read the Sun or the Province regularly I tend to agree with you Badfish whe it comes to other forms of journalism which show all the signs you mentioned. It's the same problem across the board, particularly here in North America, too little research too much driven by the need to sell advertising.

That being said I still don't see where the media is doing any kind of "ripping apart" which is a separate issue entirely and seems to be the initial point of this thread.

As for Pratt I find him often amusing to listen to and I take it in the spirit it's intended, they have hours to fill and clearly aren't meant to be any kind of hard news type program.

I'm just a bit mystified why the media is such a longstanding topic of conversation and people getting so worked up. The days of the plucky reporter doing their jobs, investigating and getting some inside scoop no one else has and reporting real *news* are long gone in any market in any type of media. Very few reporters actually go out and investigate anything these days, it's not confined to Vancouver sporrts journalism about the Canucks.

Maybe all the media you guys choose to watch or read are Canucks related so you get a bit of a skewed idea that they are unusally bad but it's bad across the board.

Either way how much does it *really* matter? We get to see the press conferences, find out who's doing what, hear often from the players and off ice staff themselves in their own words. We can discuss that here and make up our own minds. The actual *news* *is* reported fully and completely here in this market for the Canucks.

The opinion pieces are not *news*, there seems to be some ongoing confusion about that, they are nothing more than the equivalent of a post you might read here so why do people feel like they are offended more by it than by something someone posts here given that the "journalists" in question don't do any more investigative research than sitting at a press conference or calling people and getting third or fourth hand rumours.

Just because they're paid to do it doesn't mean they are any better at it than the rest of us. Should they be? Hell yes but they aren't and very few others are anywhere in any type of news organisations here in North America so why come down on them so hard for being as crappy as everyone else?

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Post by yammi » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:28 am

The negative tone of some Vancouver newspaper columnists has been evident since Nonis got shit canned and Gillis gave his infamous first press conference about the Canucks being far from a contender, that the previous GM left the franchise in bad shape and had difficulty acquiring players, and that revamping the scouting staff will be his #1 priority.

While I will always hate and never Tony G's columns, I think, when seen from this perspective, Ed Willes and Iain McIntyre deserve a bit more of a break than you guys are willing to give them. My sense is that they liked Dave Nonis and have been reacting to what they don't like about Gillis so far.

In particular, since his scathing first press conference in which Gillis bashed the current state of the franchise, Nonis' handling of it, and the scouting:

(1) his new right-hand man and director of player personnel, Lorne Henning, arrives and contradicts Gillis with his initial statement by saying pretty much the opposite ... that the Canucks are NOT in bad shape at all and can be a contender with the acquisition of couple of good forwards ... i.e., the previous GM did not ruin the team, and actually did a fair job (which of course the press is going to chuckle about).

(2) after his bluster about how he'll make things happen quickly, Gillis discovers that making trades and acquiring FAs is not as easy as he claimed (which of course the press is going to chuckle about).

(3) after ranting about how his #1 priority is revamping scouting and that this has been the historical downfall of the team and that things are going to change in this department big time, Gillis retains Ron DeLorme and the same scouting group (which of course the press is going to chuckle about).

I agree that a few of the columnists may have been too hard on Demitra, but they have been right on the money to pointing out how Gillis came in saying things about how poorly the franchise was run by Nonis before he got here ... and then proceeding to do more or less the same things Nonis was doing (and, on the player acquisition front, perhaps with less success).

My take is that, yes, most of the Vancouver newspaper writers are bad ... but Gillis deserves some of what he's been getting from Willes and MacIntyre.

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Post by sk8er » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:37 pm

To be truthful, I do not remember Gilis"ranting" at all. And as far as "scathing", that hardly qualified as "scathing". He mentioned that changes were going to be made and IMO, he has made the changes he set out to make. He only alluded to the previous GM's tenure, saying the Canucks were not a contender but with the right mioves, might be only one or two players from being a contender.
I don't remember him "ranting" about the scouting either. Yes he felt changes should be made, and he is doing it .........slowly.
I would much rather the new GM move slowly than come in and blow the whole organization up. He moved Stan smyl out of his position of developing players, good move, Smyl seems useless. he has fired scouts he felt were not doing the job. By retaining Delorme does not mean he is not doing what he said.
The problem is that we have absolutely NO idea what goes on in the organization on a day to day basis, so therefore, we jump to all kinds of wild and often ridiculous conclusions.

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