Some say that it's not coaching it's Nonis thats the problem

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georoa
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Some say that it's not coaching it's Nonis thats the problem

Post by georoa »

So after posting, "Time For A Coaching Change?" A lot of comments were that Nonis isn't doing the job of bringing in the talent that the Canucks need. I agree to some extent, but I have seen a lot of talent on the Canucks this year in up and coming players. IE: Shannon, Raymond, and Bourdon. I don't know why in the world we kept Cowan, Weaver, and some of the other grunts on the team. IMO we have a great up and coming team in, Burrows, Kesler, Elder, Shannon, Raymond, Pyat and Bourdon. If we can just get some leadership and effort from the top lines I think we could go a long way in the next couple of years. That being said we need someone stronger in front of the net that can stay in front and not be constantly pushed out and manhandled.
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the toucan kid
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Post by the toucan kid »

No offense georoa, but I believe we're a long way from having a great up and coming team. We have some nice D men and some good checkers, but what we need is talent on the top lines. It's not grit and leadership, it's simply talent, and until that arrives it's not fair to expect much out of this team. This was a year we had to suffer through in order to get this off-season where Nonis has to prove himself.
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Post by sk8er »

Some say.......who says?
Posters on these boards who know absolutely nothing about what goes on around the team, or Nonis, or management, or anything.
Everything is speculation.......
I for one am glad Nonis did not mortgage the farm to get a rent a player.
Judging him from your computer is grossly unfair.
After you have been in on some of the phone calls and dealing he does, then judge him, until then..............nobody here is qualified..
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Post by georoa »

Some say.......who says?
Posters on these boards who know absolutely nothing about what goes on around the team, or Nonis, or management, or anything.
Everything is speculation.......
I for one am glad Nonis did not mortgage the farm to get a rent a player.
Judging him from your computer is grossly unfair.

Of course the is speculation, everything on this site is. This is where we like to vent our frustration and kick around ideas but we do reflect on the facts and decisions that Nonis has made. Don't take it so personally, your making me think your related to Nonis for Christs sake LOL. While were at it why don't you fill us in, where is Nonis from? Did he ever play the game? Did he ever coach the game? Hmmm on secong thought Illl google him and see if anything comes up.
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Post by georoa »

So i googled Nonis and what did I find? Not a hell of a lot. Seems he played some hockey at the University of Maine. Well that must have been steller as he wracked up an amazing 14 goals and 78 assists in 4 years. No wonder he keeps underproducers he was one LMAO.
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Post by DonCherry4PM »

sk8er wrote:Everything is speculation.......
I for one am glad Nonis did not mortgage the farm to get a rent a player.
Agreed on that front. Mortgaging the future by trading prospects or draft picks would not have been wise this year, just as it wasn't last year or the year before. At least Nonis is learning, if taking a while to do so.
sk8er wrote:Judging him from your computer is grossly unfair.
After you have been in on some of the phone calls and dealing he does, then judge him, until then..............nobody here is qualified..
Nice high horse. By this line of reasoning we shouldn't evaluate players either because no one here has played at the NHL level. Neither should we evaluate the coach as we haven't coached at the NHL level. So as I haven't gm'd, coached, or played at an NHL level I really don't have any right to say anything good or bad about those who do. Thus this site is reserved for those who have had such experiences.

I may be mistaken mistaken, but I would say that most of the users who visit this site are not affiliated with the NHL in any other capacity than being fans. And as fans they, as do I, like to talk about the game, to analyze, to evaluate, to speculate, to compare, to complain and to rejoice. Be they founded upon personal experience or not, it is the diverse opinions regarding the related issues that make this site interesting and enjoyable to frequent.
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Post by Reverend Smack »

sk8er

After you have been in on some of the phone calls and dealing he does, then judge him, until then..............nobody here is qualified..
I tried brother, but Nonis does not return my calls LOL :mrgreen:
I agree on the mortgagingthe future thing, I do not mind the tinkering Nonis has done so far. BUT, this off season will make or break him. He will have the cap space to make a couple of significant moves.
I would also prefer to see Bourdon and Shannon in over Weaver and Ritchie, skill and youth over a couple of never have beens! :mex:
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Post by Antony »

I get a kick out of everyone who says Nonis is doing a great job because he didn't mortgage the future with a rental player. They miss the inescapable fact that Nonis has had almost 3 years to come up with a 20 goal scorer that has been so desperately needed on the first (or second) line. If this team actually had some scoring it could have gone somewhere. Instead, well …
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Post by sk8er »

Reverend Smack wrote:sk8er

After you have been in on some of the phone calls and dealing he does, then judge him, until then..............nobody here is qualified..
I tried brother, but Nonis does not return my calls LOL :mrgreen:
I agree on the mortgagingthe future thing, I do not mind the tinkering Nonis has done so far. BUT, this off season will make or break him. He will have the cap space to make a couple of significant moves.
I would also prefer to see Bourdon and Shannon in over Weaver and Ritchie, skill and youth over a couple of never have beens! :mex:
I agree 100% Rev. This summer is Nonis' time to really try and get 'er done.
until then, I have faith!
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Post by sk8er »

[quote="Antony"]I get a kick out of everyone who says Nonis is doing a great job because he didn't mortgage the future with a rental player. They miss the inescapable fact that Nonis has had almost 3 years to come up with a 20 goal scorer that has been so desperately needed on the first (or second) line. If this team actually had some scoring it could have gone somewhere. Instead, well …[/quote

Yes, well, Pyatt comes to mind...as does Carter. It was not Nonis' fault that Carter was a gredy little poop, that only saw $$$$$ and ruined his career in the process. He would have done well if he had stayed with the Canucks and the Sedins, but it was his choice to fuck off for the big $$$.......where is he now??
And what bargaining chips was DN siupposed to use when our cupboards were bare? Please enlighten me...........
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Post by Madcombinepilot »

They miss the inescapable fact that Nonis has had almost 3 years to come up with a 20 goal scorer
So, Carter, Pyatt, and Kesler don't count? I just sort of names the three that came to mind, one for each year....

Nonis has done alright with what he has had. People forget that he landed Luongo for an asset nobody believed that would get that much value, people forget that he got a 2nd round pick for a goalie that was waived this year (as an aside, didn't Huet go for a second rounder? would that make Huet as valuable as a wounded Cloutier?), people forget that he made the aquisition of home grown defensive talent that this team desperatly needed, and that he re-stocked a barren wasteland in Manitoba with servicable prospects. People forget he drafted a skilled speedy forward. He did this in a market where EVERY move is over scrutinized by feverish fan-zelots, all with a couple of brutal contracts hanging over his head that he inherieted from the previous GM....

Cut the dude some slack. This isn't playstation hockey, where you can keep 'trading up' from mediocre talent to superstars simply by clicking the button. With the assets he has had, in the market he was put into, he has done alright.
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Post by Badfish »

DonCherry4PM wrote:
sk8er wrote:Everything is speculation.......
I for one am glad Nonis did not mortgage the farm to get a rent a player.
Agreed on that front. Mortgaging the future by trading prospects or draft picks would not have been wise this year, just as it wasn't last year or the year before. At least Nonis is learning, if taking a while to do so.
sk8er wrote:Judging him from your computer is grossly unfair.
After you have been in on some of the phone calls and dealing he does, then judge him, until then..............nobody here is qualified..
Nice high horse. By this line of reasoning we shouldn't evaluate players either because no one here has played at the NHL level. Neither should we evaluate the coach as we haven't coached at the NHL level. So as I haven't gm'd, coached, or played at an NHL level I really don't have any right to say anything good or bad about those who do. Thus this site is reserved for those who have had such experiences.

I may be mistaken mistaken, but I would say that most of the users who visit this site are not affiliated with the NHL in any other capacity than being fans. And as fans they, as do I, like to talk about the game, to analyze, to evaluate, to speculate, to compare, to complain and to rejoice. Be they founded upon personal experience or not, it is the diverse opinions regarding the related issues that make this site interesting and enjoyable to frequent.
I think the thing isn't evaluating and analyzing that is the problem, it's when people go around talking as if they knew exactly what should have been done years ago and if only they'd been in his shoes we'd have 2 stanley cup banners by now.

It's one thing to say Nonis should have done something in the past 2 years to get a winger for the twins (Which I whole-heartedly agree with). It's another to assume that we know anything about the reality of what goes on with the team, amongst players, the coaches, and GM. We've got no real idea unless you've been there. We can evaluate all we want, and judging from DN's past he hasn't done too bad imo, a division title, coach of the year and one of the most lop-sided trades since the lock-out. Sure he's had some busts (Bulis, Isbister-who's had a decent couple games lately...) but he's had some gems as well (Shannon, Pyatt, Carter, not to mention our much improved scouting).

It's been said 1000 times on these boards but the real test for DN will be this offseason. See what he does then, and if we have the same problems at the end of next year that we do now, well I'm sure his (and Bobby Lou's) contracts will probably not be renewed after the following season if he lasts that long.

Canuck fans have a history of being very negative towards the team imo, as if the team owes them something. DN has done us very well so far, as has AV. Nonis' big flaw so far has been aquiring a bonafied offensive player to help out the twins, aside from that we've got a pretty solid team! We've got contracts off the books this summer as well as an increase of 6 mil (!!??!!) to the cap I'm hearing? He knows what the team lacks, as does everyone else in the league, I'm sure he's going to do something about it with that money. I'm kind of hoping he can get Salo to waive his no-trade, but who knows...
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Post by sk8er »

DonCherry4PM wrote:
sk8er wrote:Everything is speculation.......
I for one am glad Nonis did not mortgage the farm to get a rent a player.
Agreed on that front. Mortgaging the future by trading prospects or draft picks would not have been wise this year, just as it wasn't last year or the year before. At least Nonis is learning, if taking a while to do so.
sk8er wrote:Judging him from your computer is grossly unfair.
After you have been in on some of the phone calls and dealing he does, then judge him, until then..............nobody here is qualified..
Nice high horse. By this line of reasoning we shouldn't evaluate players either because no one here has played at the NHL level. Neither should we evaluate the coach as we haven't coached at the NHL level. So as I haven't gm'd, coached, or played at an NHL level I really don't have any right to say anything good or bad about those who do. Thus this site is reserved for those who have had such experiences.

I may be mistaken mistaken, but I would say that most of the users who visit this site are not affiliated with the NHL in any other capacity than being fans. And as fans they, as do I, like to talk about the game, to analyze, to evaluate, to speculate, to compare, to complain and to rejoice. Be they founded upon personal experience or not, it is the diverse opinions regarding the related issues that make this site interesting and enjoyable to frequent.

No high horse at all on my part anyway. As Badfish so eloquently pointed out after your high horse comment, its people who assume Nonis has done nothing when they don't have a clue what the hell he has done, and just slag him, that is getting damn tiresome.
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Post by DonCherry4PM »

MCP wrote:He did this in a market where EVERY move is over scrutinized by feverish fan-zelots, all with a couple of brutal contracts hanging over his head that he inherieted from the previous GM....
To the first part of this sentence - true enough I am a fan-zealot, I will admit it. To the second part - not one person on the current Canucks' roster is still under a Burke era contract, unless you consider Shanon. Naslund, Mo, Ohlund and the Sedins are all under Nonis' contracts. That said, I can't say I disagreed with signing Naslund to a 6 million contract. As a 40 goal scorer he was well worth it - not so much now, but those are the breaks. I didn't like the contracts to Mo or Cooke though.
MCP wrote:people forget that he got a 2nd round pick for a goalie that was waived this year.
He also resigned Cloutier to the 3 million dollar deal he had to get rid of. Getting a second round pick was cleaning up his own mess in my opinion.
Badfish wrote:I think the thing isn't evaluating and analyzing that is the problem, it's when people go around talking as if they knew exactly what should have been done years ago and if only they'd been in his shoes we'd have 2 stanley cup banners by now.
I don't recall anyone ever stating that, albeit if they had I would agree with you.
Bfish wrote:It's one thing to say Nonis should have done something in the past 2 years to get a winger for the twins (Which I whole-heartedly agree with). It's another to assume that we know anything about the reality of what goes on with the team, amongst players, the coaches, and GM. We've got no real idea unless you've been there. We can evaluate all we want, and judging from DN's past he hasn't done too bad imo, a division title, coach of the year and one of the most lop-sided trades since the lock-out. Sure he's had some busts (Bulis, Isbister-who's had a decent couple games lately...) but he's had some gems as well (Shannon, Pyatt, Carter, not to mention our much improved scouting).
First, I don't really assume anything other than that it was obvious from the conclusion of last year's playoff run that scoring was an issue that had to be dealt with. Now maybe it is wrong to assume that he could have made some sort of deal involving a defenseman for a forward - ie Salo waiving his NTC, Bieksa etc.- or not signing miller, cowan, isbister, ritchie etc. and spending two mil on someone who had a legitimate chance of putting that black rubber thing in the net, but that is my opinion.

Second, yes, AV got coach of the year as a direct result of Nonis getting Luongo, for which I will be forever thankful to Keenan's stupidity and hardheadedness. Whether that deal landed in Nonis' lap or not, it was definitely a coup and he deserves credit, but at the same time if that is all he does, well....

Third, I would contend that there are fewer gems than busts and several wasted pics for the likes of Smolinski, Carney, Weinrich, Sean Brown and Sopel. One of my least favourite moves (or lack thereof) was not trading Jovo at deadline. I loved the guy, but Nonis knew he wasn't going to resign him and could have got a ton of talent and prospects in return - that was definitely dropping the ball. Absolutely brutal to let talent and heart like that go without acquiring anything in return.
Bfish wrote:It's been said 1000 times on these boards but the real test for DN will be this offseason. See what he does then, and if we have the same problems at the end of next year that we do now, well I'm sure his (and Bobby Lou's) contracts will probably not be renewed after the following season if he lasts that long.
Maybe so, but if previous experience is the best judge of future performance I am not too confident. This is not a prediction that he will not do well, just saying that I would give it 50/50 odds.
Bfish wrote:Canuck fans have a history of being very negative towards the team imo, as if the team owes them something. DN has done us very well so far, as has AV. Nonis' big flaw so far has been aquiring a bonafied offensive player to help out the twins, aside from that we've got a pretty solid team! We've got contracts off the books this summer as well as an increase of 6 mil (!!??!!) to the cap I'm hearing? He knows what the team lacks, as does everyone else in the league, I'm sure he's going to do something about it with that money. I'm kind of hoping he can get Salo to waive his no-trade, but who knows...
Don't necessarily agree with the "very well" on the part of AV or Nonis, and with the inconsistency we have shown - at times we have a pretty solid team - at others not so much. True, there is an increase in total cap space, compounded with getting rid of some of our own salary, but the UFA market is pretty limited. We are going to be bidding against quite a few teams for not that many talented forwards (sub-note: including Edmonton which now has money coming out of its ears). Not sure that bodes very well for the summer.

Now shedding my cynicism and pessimism for unadulterated optimism:

This summer Nonis is going to land Malone, Vrbata and Laraque and resign Naslund for cheap. The team will be rejuvenated, Raymond and Shannon will blossom into bona fide 2nd liners as will Pettinger. We will no longer be plagued by pluggers, but will have more top six forwards than we know what to do with. Bieksa will regain his form of last year and both Elder and Bourdon will take full advantage of their opportunities to round into centre pieces of our D. We will be a mighty force in the west, slaying any that come in our way, that come between us and the beloved Lord Stanley's Cup. And the team will drink from this Cup and the contents that greets their lips will be the sweetest nectar one could ever taste - Victory.

Ahhh.... and so my dream ends......
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Post by Madcombinepilot »

DC4PM:
MCP wrote:
He did this in a market where EVERY move is over scrutinized by feverish fan-zelots, all with a couple of brutal contracts hanging over his head that he inherieted from the previous GM....

To the first part of this sentence - true enough I am a fan-zealot, I will admit it. To the second part - not one person on the current Canucks' roster is still under a Burke era contract, unless you consider Shanon. Naslund, Mo, Ohlund and the Sedins are all under Nonis' contracts. That said, I can't say I disagreed with signing Naslund to a 6 million contract. As a 40 goal scorer he was well worth it - not so much now, but those are the breaks. I didn't like the contracts to Mo or Cooke though.
I should have been more clearer, I was trying to say that in his first couple years, he had a couple brutal contracts hanging over his head. Yes all the contracts now are his, but how can you complain about all those contracts?
Danrik - two guys at 3.75 million with 75 and 73 points = good contracts.
Ohlund - a top pairing defenceman getting points at almost half point per game? at 3.5 million, thats a good contract.
you agreed with the Naslund contract upon signing
Mo, yeah, he is overpaid by about a half million.
Shannon at 550k is simply an option for a different lookjing team. speed instead of plugger. either way, you don't get much cheaper than that, and if he would havew clicked with someone, you would be underpaying an overachiever.. something that must happen to have a winning team.

With the exception of Naslund, if all DN does is overpay around a half million, he is doing OK. When you look at comparible contracts around the league, he is doing OK with the guys who were available at the time they were brought in.

As to Cloutier, if memory serves, the going rate (at the time) for a starting goalie with 3 consecutive 30+ win seasons was around 3 million. He signed Clouts (so we were covered (well sorta-kinda, all things considered) then he made the deal for Bobby.
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