BERTUZZI and CARTER.....stupid or ingenius to bring em back?

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Farhan Lalji

BERTUZZI and CARTER.....stupid or ingenius to bring em back?

Post by Farhan Lalji »

BERTUZZI and CARTER.....stupid or ingenius to bring em back?

Image

Add Pyatt's $1.5 mill+ to that amount.

Anyway, here is what's going on in my mind in regards to Bertuzzi.

CON: Bertuzzi is a lockerroom cancer.

PRO: Now that Crawford and McKaw have left, does Bertuzzi *really* have any enemies in the lockerroom? (did he ever?).

CON: Bertuzzi is washed up.

PRO: At 31 (or whatever he is), can you really say that Bertuzzi is "washed up"? Look at guys like Shanahan and Guerin.

CON: Bertuzzi is a defensive liability.

PRO: With Mitchell and Luongo back there (combined with the fact that Veenyo's system is more defensive oriented), Bertuzzi's defensive liabilities can be minimized.

CON: WCE line is washed up and passed their prime. They sucked the last time around, what will make them different this time around?

PRO: Buy low, sell high. Bertuzzi can be had a fairly cheap price now (as will Carter). Bertuzzi knows that his market value has dropped, and his reputation has taken a major hit. There's a very small chance that he'll "act up" as he did in the past. Best case scenaio --> WCE line returns to their old ways, Sedin/Sedin/Carter play like they used to..............AND we have Roberto friggin Luongo.

CON: Bert is injury prone.

PRO: Maybe, but maybe not. At a discounted price (which he'll be at this summer), the reward can substantially outweight the risk. Again - was Bertuzzi's friction with his TEAMMATES....or was it with Crawford and management (people of which are no longer here).


WORST case scenario: Sedin/Sedin/Carter don't re-discover their old magic, WCE line don't re-discover their old magic, Bertuzzi is a lockerroom cancer. However....we STILL have Luongo...that massive X-Factor. We still have Mitchell/Bieksa....one of the best shut down defensemen in the league. We still have a great PK, and Veenyo's "system" in-tact.

BEST case scenario: WCE line plays like they did in 02', Sedin/Sedin/Carter play like they did in 06', Luongo plays like he did in 07', Canucks win the cup in 08'.


Again - what WOULD the Canucks' have been like (in 02/03) IF they had a goalie like Luongo? This question haunts me......and a lot of other die-hard Canuck fans. What IF our old offense was COMBINED with our current defense and goaltending.

Should Nonis risk it and find out?

Remember: Bertuzzi and Carter can be had for WAY below their usual value. The Ducks took a chance with Selanne. St. Louis did it with Guerin. Should we do it with Bertuzzi? By low, sell high?


Lines

Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi
Sedin-Sedin-Carter
Cooke-Kesler-Pyatt
Burrows-Linden-Cowan

Mitchell-Bieksa
Salo-Ohlund
Krajicek-(Bourdon?)

Luongo
Sabourin.
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Island Nucklehead
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Post by Island Nucklehead »

Carter could be had for cheap.

Bertuzzi will still command more than we can offer him. Remember, he was playing at a point/game pace before his injury in Florida. He was a 70+point guy with us. Sure, he's not the 5 Million variety anymore, but he will still get someone to pay him 3....and that's three million we can't afford.

Bert's ship has sailed. I'm fairly confident his best years were as a Canuck and, like Jovo, we have moved past him at the right time.

I don't know why everyone expects this team to look much different than last season. The core is set, all that is left is getting the periphery pieces. RW will most likely again be our weakness, and I wouldn't mind having Carter back for 800K. :lol:
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Post by Madcombinepilot »

I think we need to quit beating the Bertuzzi drum.
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Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Island Nucklehead wrote:Carter could be had for cheap.
Exactly! Very very cheap! Considering the chemistry that he had with the twins, I think its a no-brainer to try and get him. :)
Bertuzzi will still command more than we can offer him. Remember, he was playing at a point/game pace before his injury in Florida.
You are correct, but keep in mind that this was for only 7 games. His +/- was also not the greatest if I recall correctly.
He was a 70+point guy with us. Sure, he's not the 5 Million variety anymore, but he will still get someone to pay him 3....and that's three million we can't afford.

Bert's ship has sailed. I'm fairly confident his best years were as a Canuck and, like Jovo, we have moved past him at the right time.
I definitely see your point of view (and I pretty much feel the same way), but I am intrigued with the other viewpoint as well.

A few years ago, everyone thought Teemu Selanne was washed up. During the lockout year, he rested his body, got knee surgery, and went back to his old ways. When Bill Guerin left Dallas, everyone thought he was washed up as well. Last season in St. Louis however, he was very good. The Blues got a great deal by trading him to the Sharks.

In other words, they bought low and sold high.

In Bertuzzi's case, he's pretty much rested for most of this season. Like Selanne, he had surgery to address his physical problem. I would also argue that the Steve Moore incident is (finally) starting to fade away.

A good argument can be made that Bert's "lockerroom problems" were NOT with his teammates...but instead, were with Crawford and McKaw (no longer a part of the Canucks).

I don't know why everyone expects this team to look much different than last season. The core is set, all that is left is getting the periphery pieces. RW will most likely again be our weakness, and I wouldn't mind having Carter back for 800K. :lol:
The core does seem to be set, but I'm sure that some changes will be made (like you say, getting some "periphery pieces" and addressing our RW needs). Letting Smolinski go for Anson Carter would be money well spent IMO....since Carter has proven chemistry with the twins.

Just imagine though eh? IF the WCE line went back to their old form....COMBINED with Luongo in net. Naslund, Morrison, and Bertuzzi are not "OLD" by any means. There is a risk involved in bringing back Bertuzzi, but I think the potential for reward is pretty great as well.

What WOULD the Canucks' have done between 2001-2004 had they had a decent goaltender? (let alone, a superstar goalie like Luongo).
Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji »

Madcombinepilot wrote:I think we need to quit beating the Bertuzzi drum.
You're probably right, but I can't help but wonder....

-Buy low, sell high (Bert's value is low right now).

-Crawford and McKaw are no longer here. Bert's "enemies" aren't here?

-Bertuzzi has had a year to rest his back.

-The Steve Moore incident seems to be fading.

-The Canucks' team is so different from the Crawford era, that Bert (in many respects) would be coming to a "new atmosphere" anyways.

-If the Canucks can keep winning, the media won't be as harsh on Bertuzzi. With Roberto Luongo in net, this isn't farfetched.

-Bertuzzi is in NO position to have an "attitude problem." If he has an attitude here (or anywhere for that matter), his career could be finished for good (a la Denis Rodman). Bertuzzi knows this...he is smarter than people give credit.
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Post by levelheaded »

Farhan Lalji wrote:
Madcombinepilot wrote:I think we need to quit beating the Bertuzzi drum.
You're probably right, but I can't help but wonder....

-Buy low, sell high (Bert's value is low right now).
If we were to apend the minimum $2.5 million required to sign Bertuzzi as a UFA, I'd prefer to invest it in someone like Forsberg (pipe dream I know) or Hartnell, someone who's never been here before and doesn't bring any of the old scars that Bertuzzi does.

In his prime Bertuzzi was close to the best player in the game, unfortunately that prime was very short lived. I know he was a fan favourite, but people have to move on. This is a different team with a different direction. Naslund was able to buy into the system, but I somehow doubt Bert will be able to.

Furthermore, How does a pending UFA play so lazily in the playoffs for the team that took a chance on him? He wasn't awful, but he certainly wasn't good for Detroit. Something is seriously wrong with him, as Island said, that ship has sailed.


EDIT: Good job on the depth Chart Farhan.
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Post by Madcombinepilot »

Farhan, I am all in for getting value, but how can you define value as a 3 million cap hit (at least) with a 50-50 chance (at best) of NOT destroying the chemistry in the dressing room, all with the added bonus of 100% certainty of the media gong show that would come with it?

how is that value to this team?

and,

EDIT: Good job on the depth Chart Farhan.

I agree ;p
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Post by Tukaram »

Bertuzzi won't come back to Vancouver, nor should he even want to.
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Post by Badfish »

Farhan Lalji wrote: Just imagine though eh? IF the WCE line went back to their old form....COMBINED with Luongo in net. Naslund, Morrison, and Bertuzzi are not "OLD" by any means. There is a risk involved in bringing back Bertuzzi, but I think the potential for reward is pretty great as well.

What WOULD the Canucks' have done between 2001-2004 had they had a decent goaltender? (let alone, a superstar goalie like Luongo).
That is the eternal question, what would our team have been like with Luongo instead of Cloutier/Auld. It burns, I know!

There are two views to this in my mind as well.

On the one hand....
I honestly think there is no way DN or anyone involved would really want to go down that road again. The Canucks have just successfully removed themselves from the shadow of all the happened when bert was here, we have one successful season with a young core, new coach, moving forwards. Now is not the time to open old wounds and bring back a guy that, as others have said, has not even looked all the impressive when he did play this season.

Just think what would happen if Bert went into one of his infamous slumps. The media would be ALL over him in no time, and DN as well most likely. If he gets moody again, it throws off our whole locker room, hard-work ethic the team seems to be buying into.

But the die hard, loyal fan in my wants to bring Bert back. It's true! I don't want to want to, but I do! The idea of him reunited with Nazzy and Bmo, see all 3 become re-energized and play like we all know they can would bring a tear to my eye! That with a potent Sedin line, with Pyatt or another piece gives me shivers when combined with the thought of our solid D and Luongo!! When he left, and even part way through the season when he was injured a part of me always secretly was thinking "well, he'll be a UFA after this season, he's going to be back and healthy after surgery... maybe he'll take a pay cut to be able to come back to Vancouver, play with his old buddies Nazzy and BMo, and repay the fans of Vancouver who stuck by him through thick and thin with a cup! When every other arena in the league booed him every time he touched the puck, we cheered. GM Place erupted when he stepped on to the ice for the jerseys off our backs night... and he's always said he's loved the city and the fans who supported him...

Who knows, the stars could align, and it could all work out beautifully! But DN would be taking a MASSIVE risk to bring him back at this point and risk all that he's started to build. I think as sad as it is, it's probably best to move on. It's like a bad girlfriend, there's a time when you just should accept it's over and stop watching her through her windows at night, dreaming of what might have been.... I mean you guys do that too right?
right?
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Post by Badfish »

I also love the graphic, nice work Farhan :mrgreen:
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Post by Jovorock »

I don't know who will be the 7th defenseman, but I think Edler will be the 6th d-man. Bourdon should spend a year with the Moose IMO.
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Post by tuzzi44 »

the bertuzzi ship has unfortunately sailed... gotta get new blood in the room, no cancer allowed. Carter i woiuld consider if he was dirt cheap, but if there was a better option out there in the off season i would go with that.

i also think that Bourdon should spend the year with the moose and help him develop. give him some NHL games as well and see how he does. in the playoffs, the rookie defensemen we had played well, so perhaps he will suprise us and earn a spot in the big show.
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Post by Myria »

Man, if we could just get Naslund to pull a Dave Dickensen and offer part of his operpaid contract to Bertuzzi to come play here (under the table of course) it would be so perfect. As much as I think Bertuzzi is on the downturn, both players seem to be lacking the passion for the game, and just think what Bertuzzi could do for Naslund mentally!

If I were Naslund, I would do this in a heartbeat, after his poor performance the last two years, you know if he doesn't retire he will be taking a huge pay cut anyway after this contract is up. If he takes a bit of a hit now, and him and Bertuzzi find the magic again, he may be able to command another big contract afterward.

Bertuzzi also has the same incentive. He could sign somewhere else for more money overall, but if he signed here for 1 year at a smaller price (subsidezed by Naslund) and he has a great season with Naslund, he will be able to command a bigger contract and more years next year.

Hell, even Morrison should help subsidize his contract, he's overpaid too.

Further incentive lays in the fact (as previously mentioned) we now have a world-caliber goalie and a pretty stiff defense. The WCE could tear things up again and with a second line of Sedin x2 and Pyatt, we would be a true powerhouse again.

God, if only......
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Post by SRsez »

Too much pie.
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Post by Grizzly »

Madcombinepilot wrote:I think we need to quit beating the Bertuzzi drum.
lol ... it just keeps on going doesn't it ...

No to Carter as well ... if he wanted to be here in the first place he would have signed when he had the opportunity .... Cya as far as I am concerned.

Grizz
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