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Kirill Koltsov signs with Russian team

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:10 am
by Jyrki21
Bad news re: Kirill Koltsov:

http://www.russianprospects.com/public/ ... yer_id=220
2007 Russian Super League - Defenseman Kiril Koltsov (Vancouver Canucks) appears to be staying in Russia for at least another season. The young offensive minded defenseman signed a one year deal with HC Salavat Yulayev from Ufa. The deal is reportedly worth 1.7 million US dollars and will be well beyond what he was expected to make while with the Vancouver Canucks next season...if he made it through training camp that is. Now Koltsov is primed to switch teams, but remain in Russia for the 2007-08 season, further clouding his NHL future.
Apparently this doesn't mean that he can't come to the NHL, but you've got to think the money will be a big incentive not to.

A shame... another lost Canuck asset.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:54 am
by mattola
Same reason why we lost Chubarov. Russia overpaid for them. we cant compete for this level a player. there are better options in North America

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:05 am
by Meerschaum
Given the tax rate discrepancies, that's the equivalent of well over $2 million annually in Canadian income. (Of course, I'm sure he'll end up kicking a lot of that salary back to a variety of Russian crooks and gangsters for "protection" . . .)

Nonis simply can't afford that for a guy who's a question mark to even succeed in the NHL.

Time to turn the page on this guy.

I think the club's one takeaway from the Koltsov and Chubarov affairs is simply . . . never draft another Russian player. I repeat: Never. NEVER.

There's simply too much risk. It's like throwing draft picks into the toilet.

Stick with Canadians, Americans, Swedes. Finns and the occasional Dane.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:23 am
by levelheaded
Meerschaum wrote:I think the club's one takeaway from the Koltsov and Chubarov affairs is simply . . . never draft another Russian player. I repeat: Never. NEVER.

There's simply too much risk. It's like throwing draft picks into the toilet.

Stick with Canadians, Americans, Swedes. Finns and the occasional Dane.
Rather then never draft Russians again I say we stick with players that are willing to come across the pond and learn the North American game in the AHL, like Sergei Shirokov (apparently) expressed interest in.

Koltsov wasn't really a wasted pick, he is a good player and is still probably quite attractive to teams looking to rebuild because of his skillset. (Look at what Kagdridov (or whatever) got from Phoenix: Mike Comrie) He is an elite player, but $1.7 mill tax free is far more then we can afford to pay him.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 1:40 pm
by magnum44
hopefully nonis can trade away his rights for something of value. We have more young Dmen than we can realistically accomodate with icetime so Koltsov is expendable. Schneider is also looking like tradebait to me given that he is approaching free agency if they don't sign him.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:04 pm
by cerios
Koltsov is EASILY worth 1.7 million. He would instantly be our most offensively gifted defencemen by a huge margin. You don't win without a defencemen who can carry the puck and he has more talent then anyone else in the Canucks organization.

Hes the best defencemen in the world outside the NHL, I find it kind of odd that so many people thought that we would get him for so little.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:53 pm
by levelheaded
cerios wrote:Koltsov is EASILY worth 1.7 million. He would instantly be our most offensively gifted defencemen by a huge margin. You don't win without a defencemen who can carry the puck and he has more talent then anyone else in the Canucks organization.

Hes the best defencemen in the world outside the NHL, I find it kind of odd that so many people thought that we would get him for so little.

$1.7 million in Russia isn't the same as here, as far as I know it's tax free, so it's more like $3 million. Would you pay that for a guy who's never played in the NHL before?

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:58 am
by cerios
I said he was worth 1.7 million, what he is actually worth I would probably need to do a great deal more research on him for. However he is a 24 year old defencemen with truely massive upside, he is without a doubt our best prospect by a distance and so far ahead of hte likes of Bordon and Edler that comparing them is rather insulting. There is nothing that Zubov could do at 24 that Koltsov can't do better, he plays in a mans league and is the best defencemen there. He had 40pts in 51 games in a league where there is only 1 assist per goal.

The ONLY question about him is his attitude, and thats a pretty big if. Obviously that would need to be evaluated, but ask yourself this at this point would you give 1.7 million to Bordon if the alternative was a completely wasted asset? Because thats really what we are talking about. I am sure we could trade him for a late first/early second but there is little doubt he is worth more then that if we can get him here playing comfortably.

Is there a chance he can't adjust to the North American game? Absolutely but lets be realistic here its not as if the Canucks are so overflowing with prospects that we can afford to be throwing them away, sign him for one year at as little as possible and give him a real shot. There is a reason that they are paying him as much as they are.

While were at it, can we please take a run at Morozov (like I said last year) he could be a huge offensive addition.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:25 am
by jchockey
More research? You sounded pretty confident when you said he would be our "most offensively gifted defenceman by a huge margin." Whether the figure is $1.7m or $3m, it's a hefty price to pay, considering our top defenseman is paid $3.5m. Koltsov isn't a sure shot to make the top 6. If it was deciding between signing Koltsov to a multi-million contract or trading him away for a pick, I'd do the trade. In the cap world you can't handcuff yourself by signing unprovens to big contracts. Chouinard was a piss-poor signing.

But I agree we should give Alexei Morozov a look. He's been head and shoulders above everyone else in the RSL this year.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:02 am
by cerios
More research? You sounded pretty confident when you said he would be our "most offensively gifted defenceman by a huge margin." Whether the figure is $1.7m or $3m, it's a hefty price to pay, considering our top defenseman is paid $3.5m. Koltsov isn't a sure shot to make the top 6. If it was deciding between signing Koltsov to a multi-million contract or trading him away for a pick, I'd do the trade. In the cap world you can't handcuff yourself by signing unprovens to big contracts. Chouinard was a piss-poor signing.
Koltsov is as sure a shot to make our top 6 next year as any defencemen we have, I have seen him play enough to know that hes head and shoulders above anyone else we have(as a puck carrying offensive D). I consider myself to have a much better then average eye for talent, however I am hardly taking a stab in the dark here, every evaluator of talent internal to the canucks has called him the most talented player in the organization at one point or another and that was before the last 2 seasons where he has absolutely blossomed.

As for handcuffing us, if taking a chance on Koltsov at 2.5 is going to handcuff us considering the very limited talent on this team then maybe we should stop overspending on some of our not so impressive talent because giving him a shot is easily worth it.

Also bringing up Chouinard is a weird thing to do since the fact that he was an established NHLer only serves to illustrate the point that there are no sure things when introducing new players regardless of what their history is.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:12 am
by levelheaded
I don't think any of us are denying that Koltsov has talent, and would probably be a first unit PP guy here, but there's still a risk he will be a bust. He was average in Manitoba when he was over here, (10 goals 49 points in 102 games along with 104 penalty minutes) and it's not like he's been a dominant player in Russia for the last few years. Prior to this year in 147 games he had 40 points, and 16 goals. Not exactly incredible offensive numbers.

While I admit he had a great year this year(he doubled his career total in points) , I'm not willing to throw the money at a player that has had essentially one good year. Add that to the fact that he seems to be undisciplined, (142 PMs in his last 117 games) and I just don't see him as being worth the money he's likely going to demand.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:39 pm
by Meerschaum
cerios wrote:considering the very limited talent on this team
Um. No.

At forward, sure.

But this Club's back end is just about as deep as it gets in this league.

We've got two top quality pairings locked in with Ohlund/Salo and Mitchell/Bieska. I expect Nonis will sign Lukas up with no fuss in the offseason for a reasonable amount - which gives us a good young puck-moving No. 5. Then we have Edler, Bourdon and Rahimi knocking on the door and a chance to resign Rory or Sopel if Nonis wants to bring his younglings along slowly.

With that sort of depth in this organization, there's zero pressure on Nonis to use up precious cap space that could be better employed bolstering the forward lines on an undersized d-man who has zero NHL experience.

Is Koltsov the best d-man outside of NHL right now? That's a pretty darn tall claim. I can't think of many scouting organizations that would rank him ahead of folk like Eric Johnson, Mark Staal, our own Luc Bourdon, Braydon Coburn, Noah Welch, Kris Russell, Kris Letang, Matt Lashoff or Jacub Kindl.

Yeah, Koltsov's got mad offensive skills, but the fact remains that he's a penalty-prone midget who has issues in his own end. His skillset won't mesh with AV's defence-first system at all. Why waste cap space to make our D smaller and more mistake prone?

Hey, if some GM wants to give up a second rounder or a prospect for the opportunity to pay Koltsov $3 mill a season - I'm guessing he'll find DN to be a more than willing trade partner.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:58 pm
by cerios
Um. No.

At forward, sure.

But this Club's back end is just about as deep as it gets in this league.

We've got two top quality pairings locked in with Ohlund/Salo and Mitchell/Bieska. I expect Nonis will sign Lukas up with no fuss in the offseason for a reasonable amount - which gives us a good young puck-moving No. 5. Then we have Edler, Bourdon and Rahimi knocking on the door and a chance to resign Rory or Sopel if Nonis wants to bring his younglings along slowly.
Ummm yes, just as the defence was never given the credit it deserved for the offence generated during the WCE era, the forwards aren't being given nearly enough credit for the defensive play of this team. We don't have a single legitimate offensive threat from the back end, Bieksa is our best offensive D-man, and while I love him nobody is going to be delusional enough to suggest that hes a first tier offensive defencemen. Our D are old and slow and it killed us in the playoffs, they are not anywhere near as good as any of the top 5 teams and probably barely belong in the top 12.

As for lukas, hes a never will be, extremely limited talent, only average speed and a reletively poor decision maker. He may be a journeymen some day but anyone expecting more then that from him is going to be very disapointed.
With that sort of depth in this organization, there's zero pressure on Nonis to use up precious cap space that could be better employed bolstering the forward lines on an undersized d-man who has zero NHL experience.
We have a good group of defensive prospects I agree, none of which approachs Koltsovs current ability. None of which could fill the need we have (a puck rushing skilled defencemen) anywhere close to as well as Koltsov.
Is Koltsov the best d-man outside of NHL right now? That's a pretty darn tall claim. I can't think of many scouting organizations that would rank him ahead of folk like Eric Johnson, Mark Staal, our own Luc Bourdon, Braydon Coburn, Noah Welch, Kris Russell, Kris Letang, Matt Lashoff or Jacub Kindl.
I could really care less how they rate him, my evaluating skills have beat those orginizations into the dirt in the past with regularity. Not that I think there really are any orginizations that would rate that list ahead of Koltsov, in potential sure, but right now? highly unlikely.
Yeah, Koltsov's got mad offensive skills, but the fact remains that he's a penalty-prone midget who has issues in his own end. His skillset won't mesh with AV's defence-first system at all. Why waste cap space to make our D smaller and more mistake prone?
Obviously you haven't been paying attention to Koltsov's development, because hes turned into an excellent defender, in fact if one was to honestly assess his renaissance they would have to conclude he has made a far greater jump in defensive ability then offensive ability. It should also be noted that AVs defence first system got us absolutely crushed in the second round, and while everyone is jumping up and down about getting past he first round the reality is AV's system is no better then Crows was and may even be worse. The results difference, is the difference between Luongo and Cloutier. We won't win with this system anymore then the last, this isn't 1995, its a different league.
Hey, if some GM wants to give up a second rounder or a prospect for the opportunity to pay Koltsov $3 mill a season - I'm guessing he'll find DN to be a more than willing trade partner.
Obviously you have no idea how highly DN rates Koltsov because his opinion of him is about on par with my own.
While I admit he had a great year this year(he doubled his career total in points) , I'm not willing to throw the money at a player that has had essentially one good year. Add that to the fact that he seems to be undisciplined, (142 PMs in his last 117 games) and I just don't see him as being worth the money he's likely going to demand.
Yes he made a huge jump in production this year, but it was his jump in defensive play last year that really marked his development. Hes far better then average on the defensive end of the puck now.

Will DN pay him 3 mill? I wouldn't imagine, we are largely painted into a corner financially. But that doesn't change his value.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:18 pm
by Meerschaum
cerios wrote:Our D are old and slow and it killed us in the playoffs.
Um. No.

Scoring two or less goals 10 times and being shutout three times in the playoffs killed us.

That ain't a problem with the defence.
cerios wrote: As for lukas, hes a never will be, extremely limited talent, only average speed and a reletively poor decision maker. He may be a journeymen some day but anyone expecting more then that from him is going to be very disapointed.
Well, he's played for two seasons now in the NHL. Which is more than can be said for Koltsov.
cerios wrote: I could really care less how they rate him, my evaluating skills have beat those orginizations into the dirt in the past with regularity.
Wow, thanks for participating Mr. Bowman. ;)
cerios wrote: Not that I think there really are any orginizations that would rate that list ahead of Koltsov, in potential sure, but right now? highly unlikely.
Well, Hockey's Futures rated him a an 8.0D as of March 22, which puts him behind Edler and Bourdon. And that took me all of 20 seconds to look up . . .

So, wrong again.
cerios wrote: Obviously you haven't been paying attention to Koltsov's development.
What he grew??? He's no longer 5' 11" in skates?

The guy's a midget. Leave him out for a couple of shifts with Getzlaf, Penner and Perry and he'll wind up in the hospital. Size matters in the NHL. Especially on defence. And this boy just doesn't have it.

He's also undisciplined as hell. That hasn't changed either.
cerios wrote: Hes far better then average on the defensive end of the puck now
That sure as hell ain't what his own Russian coaches think.

Head coach Vyacheslav Bykov announced that Kiril Koltsov (Vancouver Canucks) has been released from Russia’s training camp. The primarily reason sited for the talented bluliner’s release was his lack of concentration on his own end of the ice. In an interview with Vladislav Dormachev of Soviet Sport, Bykov clarified that Koltsov has been told repeatedly throughout the EuroTour competitions that he needed to improve defensively and that the team could not risk a lapse at such as high level of competition. He further clarified:

Kiril – a good player and a great guy. But the fate of the World Championships lies in three playoff games in which we have to play very reliably. Unfortunately we had doubts in regards to this with Koltsov. And we can’t risk it now. So, the decision to part with Koltsov was very difficult – we couldn’t make it until the very last moment. On Monday we met until midnight and in the end made the conclusion that the other candidates were more reliable.


http://www.russianprospects.com/public/ ... yer_id=220

Sorta says it all right there. Don't it?
cerios wrote: AV's system is no better then Crows was and may even be worse.
Are you seriously suggesting that this year's squad would have been successful playing Crow's shinny-style chance-swapping hockey???

I'm sorry. Crow's style is only successful with a WCE in its prime or a Forsberg/Sakic combo.

Look at the King's record this season for how it fairs when played by mere mortals.
cerios wrote: Obviously you have no idea how highly DN rates Koltsov because his opinion of him is about on par with my own.
Well, it has been almost 11 months since I last publicly asked Dave a question about Kirill, so his views may have evolved over that time. But, for the record, as of last summer DN's verbatim response was:

"Koltsov creates a chance every time he’s on the ice, whether it’s for you or against you is the only question."

At that time, in Dave's view, Krajicek, Bieska and Bourdon were all vastly ahead of Koltsov in terms of NHL readiness.
cerios wrote: Will DN pay him 3 mill? I wouldn't imagine, we are largely painted into a corner financially. But that doesn't change his value.
I agree with you there. His only value to this club is as a throw-in in a trade.

I can only hope that there is at least one GM out there that shares your assessment of Koltsov's talent.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:29 pm
by Farhan Lalji
Meerschaum wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that this year's squad would have been successful playing Crow's shinny-style chance-swapping hockey???
I've actually been thinking about this as well.

IF the Canucks had the 06/07' version of Luongo playing with the 02/03, 03/04, (or even 01/02) version of the Canucks......what would the Canucks' legacy have been?

A big reason why the Canucks lost all those years (IMO), is because the team lost all confidence in their goaltending. As result, it had a rippling effect. The nervousness/insecurity of the team lead to second-guessing on offense, while also leading to poor decision making and positional play (not to mention, that they were being out-hit and out-worked...but that's not goaltending related).

With that in mind.....I wonder.

-The Canucks HAVE Roberto Luongo right now.

-The Canucks HAVE Morrison and Naslund right now.

-The Canucks HAVE the Sedin twins right now.

If the Canucks were to get Todd Bertuzzi and Anson Carter back (at discounted prices) and go back to their old "run and gun" style of hockey,......would it work?

Is Luongo REALLY that DAMN good?.......to the point where he could save the Canucks from the (numerous) defensive breakdowns that would occur (and to be honest - we saw a shitload in this year's playoffs.....even under the Canucks' "defense first" system).