Would you trade the Sedins' AND Luongo if you're REBUILDING?

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Farhan Lalji

Would you trade the Sedins' AND Luongo if you're REBUILDING?

Post by Farhan Lalji » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:35 pm

Would you trade the Sedins' AND Luongo if you're REBUILDING?

Hey all,

Here's the scenario: Let's say its a few days before the trading deadline. The Canucks are well behind 8th spot, and rebuilding is now the strategy. As part of the rebuilding process, would you consider trading the Sedins' AND Luongo for prospects/1st round draft picks?

I personally don't have a definitive answer as of yet, but the idea DOES intrigue me. Hence - I'd like to play devil's advocate in this thread.

Now - maybe my thinking is FALSE here, but I'm pretty sure that Luongo could land us a SHITLOAD of 1st rounders and/or prospects. The Sedin Twins could probably do the same as well. Assuming Naslund waives his no-trade clause, he could probably land us a solid prospect or a 1st rounder as well. Mattias Ohlund, at 3.5 mill, should be able to do the same.

So basically.....

Out of Vancouver
-Luongo
-Sedin twins
-Naslund
-Ohlund
-???

To Vancouver
-boatload of 1st rounders (allegedly)
-boatload of promising prospects (allegedly)
-Some other young guys (already playing) that should see improvment (i.e. a guy like Lukas Krajieck for instance)

Lets say the Canucks are also successful in getting rid of Morrison, Cooke, and Bulis for 2nd/3rd rounders.

So now? The Canucks have basically traded away their entire team for prospects, high end draft picks, and young guys that should see improvement. The Canucks go from having one of the WEAKEST farms, to having one of the DEEPEST. In the offseason, the Canucks sign a whole bunch of random guys (there would be a lot of openings!) to put together a team.

Now - here is the key issue: Given that we are under the CAP era now, would assembling a whole new team in the offseason (via signings) be difficult?

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS:

If the Canucks are destined to rebuild, lets do it full force. Realisticlly speaking - getting rid of Morrison, Bulis, Cooke,.....and even Naslund may not get us that much. If the Canucks REALLY want some high end draft picks/prospects, then it will probably mean getting rid of Ohlund, Sedin Twins, and Luongo.

If we're going to rebuild, why not go the whole 9 yards?

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Post by Kel » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:46 pm

Even if I want to trade the whole team away for the future, I don't want 1st round picks. I want specific players. That is, I want the first overall pick or I want something else. I want to know which player I'm getting with that pick, not one of the 17th to 30th available guy in a draft (if a cup/playoff team is trading with us). First round picks from playoff teams (usually 20th or lower) are way overrated. They are not much better than a 2nd round pick from a bad team, which is usually just a throw-in in any major trade. If the Canucks organization were to trade away the Sedins, I'd want to see names that excite me, not 3 or 4 picks that are no higher than 20th.

Farhan Lalji

Post by Farhan Lalji » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:05 pm

Kel wrote:Even if I want to trade the whole team away for the future, I don't want 1st round picks. I want specific players. That is, I want the first overall pick or I want something else. I want to know which player I'm getting with that pick, not one of the 17th to 30th available guy in a draft (if a cup/playoff team is trading with us). First round picks from playoff teams (usually 20th or lower) are way overrated. They are not much better than a 2nd round pick from a bad team, which is usually just a throw-in in any major trade. If the Canucks organization were to trade away the Sedins, I'd want to see names that excite me, not 3 or 4 picks that are no higher than 20th.
Oh definitely. I couldn't agree more!

I should've been more clear when making my original post. The Sedin twins and Luongo should DEFINITELY be able to land us top 5 1st rounders, exciting names, and all that good stuff.

Guys like Naslund on the other hand, may not be able to do this (or as you say, may only get us a 17th-30th type 1st rounder).

If we're going to rebuild, lets atleast try and create a farm that rivals Anaheim/Minnesota.

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Post by tuzzi44 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:49 pm

Im seeing a few flaws in your plan there Farhan Lalji... first off, doesnt Luongo have a no-trade clause too?? i cant see him wanting to waive that for any reason. Also, basically making a new team in the off season with a bunch of random guys generally doesnt work too well. we signed a ton of guys this past off season and basically none of those signings have really worked out for us. and im not too sure im brave enough to dish our 2 best players (sedins) off somewhere in hopes that a couple picks work out, when those two are becoming very proven players. those boys could be our franchise players so i wouldnt want to get rid of them, and they also play well with just about anyone which can also be valuble in the long run.
if you can get him to waive it, perhaps using Naslund in a trade would be alright... but i think dumping his salary onto a team may be difficult. especially when he may not have alot of years left.... same with Ohlund. But if we trade Ohlund, we should try and re-sign Salo.... gotta keep one vet on the blue line.
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Post by Farhan Lalji » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:12 pm

tuzzi44 wrote:Im seeing a few flaws in your plan there Farhan Lalji... first off, doesnt Luongo have a no-trade clause too??


I'm not sure (I'm too lazy to look it up :)). Even if he did though, I'm sure he could waive it. For instance - if the Canucks wanted to trade Luongo to a contender, do you REALLY think Luongo wouldn't waive his no trade clause?!?
i cant see him wanting to waive that for any reason. Also, basically making a new team in the off season with a bunch of random guys generally doesnt work too well. we signed a ton of guys this past off season and basically none of those signings have really worked out for us. and im not too sure im brave enough to dish our 2 best players (sedins) off somewhere in hopes that a couple picks work out, when those two are becoming very proven players.
Well hopefully - the Canucks would be able to get FAR more than just a "couple of picks" for the Sedins'. Last year at the deadline for instance, Dwayne Roloson and Sergei Samsonov were each worth 1st rounders. Teams tend to get desperate and a little horny around trading deadline.
those boys could be our franchise players so i wouldnt want to get rid of them, and they also play well with just about anyone which can also be valuble in the long run.
Having the ability to play well with just about anyone, being valuable in the long run, and being the face of a franchise, can also demand TREMENDOUS value in return via trade....especially around the trade deadline when GM's tend to get wide-eyed.
if you can get him to waive it, perhaps using Naslund in a trade would be alright... but i think dumping his salary onto a team may be difficult. especially when he may not have alot of years left.... same with Ohlund. But if we trade Ohlund, we should try and re-sign Salo.... gotta keep one vet on the blue line.
I again use Roloson as an example. At 36 years of age (and never really being a superstar), Minnesota inked a 1st rounder for him. Naslund, having been a superstar, and being 33, should be able to command even more. Edmonton gave up a 1st rounder (knowing that Roloson was a UFA at year's end....and probably didn't have a lot of mileage left), and so wouldn't teams do the same for Naslund?

Ohlund has TONS of mileage left in him. The guy is only 30 years of age. A played (physically and mentally) are at their peak between the ages of 28-32.

Lastly - even if the Canucks DON"T have Ohlund AND Salo at season's end, that just frees up that much cap room. With that freed up cap space, the Canucks could just sign two other defensemen (of equivalent value) anyways.

Now obviously - just going out and "signing a buncha guys" isn't a good strategy (or even a wise strategy). However - if the Canucks' future CORE is now in the form of high end draft picks, promising prospects, etc., etc., then signing a bunch of guys in the offseason is just more a short term thing anyway (if that makes sense).

In other words - once the Canucks (numerous) prospects, draft picks, etc. start to develop, they then replace all/most of the players that the Canucks would sign in this offseason (I'm sorry if this sounds complicated.....I'm having a difficult time explaining myself here).

As long as the Canucks have built a solid foundation for the future (and in my scenario, this would be from the assets of a trade involving the Sedin twins, Luongo, Naslund, Ohlund, Salo, Morrison, Cooke, etc., etc.), then the signings of free agents in the offseason aren't that relevant over the long haul (since they will ultimately be replaced by the draft picks/prospects in the upcoming seasons).












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Post by tuzzi44 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:23 pm

I totally understand what your saying... but i think i would still hold onto Luongo. if you dump everyone else suddenly his salary isnt so bad. im thinkin drafting goaltenders has become alot more hit and miss i would be a little more comfortable with Luongo back there instead of a rookie, even if its cheaper in the long run.

:) everyone thinks were having trouble now with identity... i would hate to see the identity situation once we dump everyone out of here
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Post by Farhan Lalji » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:38 pm

tuzzi44 wrote:I totally understand what your saying... but i think i would still hold onto Luongo. if you dump everyone else suddenly his salary isnt so bad. im thinkin drafting goaltenders has become alot more hit and miss i would be a little more comfortable with Luongo back there instead of a rookie, even if its cheaper in the long run.

:) everyone thinks were having trouble now with identity... i would hate to see the identity situation once we dump everyone out of here
I'd probably hold on to Luongo as well if I was Nonis (I seriously wouldn't have the balls the move Luongo! :lol: -). And like you imply - goalies like Luongo don't come by everyday....and all successful teams have a superstar goalie (or atleast plays like one in the playoffs).

On the other hand - do you remember when the Nordiques and Flyers made the infamous Eric Lindros deal?

Who in their right mind would ever want to trade a franchise center like Lindros? The Flyers ended up giving up an arm and a leg for Lindros...........and going the other way, turned out to be Peter Forsberg.

I personally would find it difficult to trade Luongo and the Sedin twins (for obvious reasons), but I sometimes wonder what it would be like to HAVE a deep farm....along the lines of what Minnesota and Anaheim have right now.

Pitsburgh Penguins are another team. With Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury, these guys could EASILY be the next dynasty.

Sometimes what I fear (as it relates to the Canucks), is that the Canucks are neither here NOR there. The Canucks are always stuck in the "middle ground" (kind of like the St. Louis Blues of yesteryear). So in essence - the Canucks are never really stacking at the deadline....or stacking with draft picks. As result - the Canucks never have short term glory OR long term glory.......just mediocrity for both.

I sometimes just wonder what the Canucks would be like if they went "all out" in one of the directions. Either build to win NOW (i.e. trying to get Forsberg) or COMPLETELY rebuilding....so we can have a possible dynasty a few years from now.

If the goal for this organization is to win the Stanley Cup one day, then aren't these the two best strategies? Isn't being "stuck in the middle ground" being neither here nor there.....the absolutely WORST strategy?

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Post by tuzzi44 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:48 pm

Sure the Pens look really good right now with guys like fleury, crosby, malkin, staal etc..... but they basically have 5 years ( or howvever long the rookie contracts last) to try to win the cup. all those guys, except for maybe Fleury, are gonna be in for huge raises once their initial contracts are over with... and will they have the cap to sign them all again... probably not.
Nonis just landed the best goaltending deal possibly in history, theres no way hes gonna turn around trade him the next year.
the Nordiques really lucked out that they ended up getting forsberg for lindros, but the gm would have looked like an idiot if they ended up getting players that didnt amount to anything.
I think one thing we need to look at is our team's scouting! you dont nessecarily need to have a top 5 pick to get a terrific player. An example... Pavel Datsyuk. this guy was basically an unknown going into that draft and went in the 6th round (171st overall). Without Detroit having a strong scouting foundation he may never have been signed... we need better scouts and find a gem like Datsyuk 8-)
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Post by Mr. Bure #10 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:57 pm

No wonder no one ever wants to play for Vancouver. I am sorry Farhan Lalji but that has to be one of the dumbest posts ever.

We are already in a rebuilding phase why would you dump your whole team for a bunch of kids with no guarantee that they will be top notch pros.

Why would Nonis trade Ohlund, the Sedins and Luongo who are the foundations of this team? I can see Morrison & Cooke and possibly Naslund if the deal was right but that is it. The answer is not to dump the whole squad just because they are sitting at .500. Nonis needs to make 1 or 2 key trades at the deadline and possibly sign a key offensive free agent and the team will be back in the hunt.

I am personally sick of people calling for trades all the time, especially when I hear Luongo's name. He hasn't even played half a season and fans are calling for his head. Come on! Luongo isn't the problem, nor are the Sedins. It is the supporting cast not pulling their weight (excluding Bieksa). Teams that get better, tweak what they already have rather than sell the farm.

Personally, Kesler is the biggest waste of $1.9 million that I have ever seen. He is awful and plays with no heart. He shouldn't even be getting $400K. I wish he was a Flyer.

Farhan please don't ever become GM of the Canucks.
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Post by canucks_fan2 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:59 pm

are u guys messed up or something that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard of u wanna get rid of the team and build a new one like come on give them a break naslund ohlund and the sedins are the vancouver canucks u trade them all away u might as well sell the team to the states

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Post by tuzzi44 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:08 pm

Mr. Bure, Thats kinda what i was thinking... if i was the GM im dont think i would be comfortable in trading guys who are definatley beneficial to have (sedins, luongo, ohlund) for prospects and picks that may not develop or pan out they way that these already proven players have. I dont really think Farhan's idea is super terrible, its just a huge risk... and if it doesnt work out were gonna look like the biggest idiots of life for trading the twins etc! And if you trade all the "stars" out of here, i think alot of fans would be super dissapointed.
I dont think were too far gone to be talking about rebuilding from the foundation up. we just need some more jump offensively, whether it comes from a trade, who knows. Its not that were in a full on rebuilding year, the players need to get comfortable with being a defensive, boring team. take care of our own end first, and make sure we still have guys who can score.
these days, to do well in the playoffs... all you need to do is squeeze in and hope your goalie is hot for the stretch. Luongo has the potential to be a killer playoff goalie so all we have to do is get maybe a descent goal scorer or two, squeeze into the playoffs and see what that guy can really do. so theres no way i would ever trade luongo
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Post by canucks_fan2 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:19 pm

yeah i totaly agree with u in that part i would never trade those guys away including nazzy he has been the heart and sole of this team and i would never trade him in a heart beat.

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Re: Would you trade the Sedins' AND Luongo if you're REBUILD

Post by MeesterFeester » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:21 pm

[i]As part of the rebuilding process, would you consider trading the Sedins' AND Luongo for prospects/1st round draft picks?[/i]

Not in my bloody dreams ! Think about what you are saying, yeah the idea sounds good only because they are losing but for one the Sedins are, even if people don't want to admit it and I do admit , they are the corner stones of our offense that you would want to rebuild around. Sedins are not doing that bad their numbers are good for the amount of experience that they have and getting rid of them would be one of DN's biggest mistakes of all time. Two: Naslund is the leader of the team , who is going to show those boys ropes if you get rid of him, Linden, give me a break. Three: What are we going to do without Luongo go back to guys like Cloutier, I said last week "yeah maybe we should trade him, it might be better for the team" , but some one proved a point by saying why give one of the best goalies of the era up and go back to second tier goalies they never got us anywhere closer than we are now. Luongo is one of the better defenders out there and he is young you could build the defense around the guy. The only thing we are missing is offense, DN should have seen it, like I said before "you take away from your offense and add defense it's just going to make it harder to win games".

Some would say that defense wins games and yes it does if you can score enough to win the game, the way the league is today offense wins games, so in saying trading Morrison and Cooke might be a little more realistic. They are defensive minded forwards that would fit nicely into a pure offensive team, naturally they are 1 or 2 teams out there that could afford to lose some offensive talent but they want to much, as in 1st or 2nd round draft picks which is not what we want to do if we are going to rebuild. Besides there isn't enough young talent out there that would justify getting rid of the Sedins or Luongo for that matter.

There for that is too big a price to pay to see results.

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Post by canucks_fan2 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:30 pm

see some ones seein the point here. that would be the all time biggest and mst dumbest trades in nhl history and what meester is sayin i agree with 100%,but i would like to add some things into it,we are a new team u guys wait when they click this team is going to rock the nhl and i could be wrong but i think the canucks time is comin and comin soon,yeah i know we arent scoring to much and that can be fixed with a trade or just the guys gettin the lucky trades,the guys on sportsnet even say it we are not gettin no lucky bounce anymore and we used to get that alot last year.now if all u guys would just lay bak and watch the games and stop bein so worried something is goin to happen and is goin to happen soon.

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Post by canucks_fan2 » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:31 pm

or just the guys gettin the lucky trades
sorry i ment bounces

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