Does Nonis have the skills to do what's necssary?

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

User avatar
MeesterFeester
AHL Prospect
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:41 pm
Location: Trail

Does Nonis have the skills to do what's necssary?

Post by MeesterFeester »

If Nonis has or had the the skills it is plainly evident that he dosen't have what it takes to make a winning team. What I mean about that is making the trades or the signings that really count. Me , I think his biggest mistake was trading Bert, not that Luongo is a bad trade, he could have sent Morrison as well to sweeten the deal and got guys like Jokinen or Hagman or even Norton. Instead he sends oneof the guys that was one of our most potent scorers and the biggest threat to any team, for a goalie and leaves his team with barely any scoring. Now our line is laden with underacheivers like Morrison or Cooke or Bulis, which two of them probably only need a change of scenery and a different team to produce some decent numbers. Now the second biggest mistake was not signing their best offensive/defensive a player I think we ever had. You all know who i'm talking about, JOVO. Now lets say he had traded Bert for a second tier goalie and one or two players as well as sending Morrison along , he would have been able sign Jovo and not given very much . He could have easily gotten a decent offensive player of the likes of Dumonts, Kunits',Carters and our team wouldn't be in such rough shape. They might have even been able to resign Carter, if Nonis had the skills to see the bigger picture.

I think personally Nonis should be replaced with somebody with the skills to do what it takes. There is always Pat Quinn, who in the past proved to be rather good GM or Coach. With Alain doing the coaching and Quinn at GM the team would at least have a shot at contending with other NHL teams , instead of minor league teams.

Nonis should find a new job!

Fred
CC Legend
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:00 pm

Post by Fred »

Every one to his own, but Quinn was a unmitagated disaster apart from bringing in BB and in turn DN every other move he made was badly conceived and badly executed. His head scout Mike Penney set this franchise back years, the only good part is he took Penney to Laugh land and set them back as well :D
cheers

User avatar
Grizzly
MVP
MVP
Posts: 900
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:35 am
Location: Dawson Creek

Post by Grizzly »

There is always Pat Quinn, who in the past proved to be rather good GM or Coach.
Not a chance ... he is old school and likes his old school boys ... one of the reasons now why TO is bad, getting worse and has no one decent in their farm system.
If Nonis has or had the the skills it is plainly evident that he dosen't have what it takes to make a winning team.
I don't think that is necessarily accurate ... IMO anyways ... I just think he is young and inexperienced ...

When I look at DN's moves ... ie the Kessler & Jovo situations ... its all about timing ... Clarke schooled DN cause he was slow to make a move ... its a lesson I don't think he will soon forget. Jovo jumped ship as we all suspected he would and DN probably should have done something earlier, even if it was just dump him for a draft pick...

... all that though comes with experience ... when to pull the trigger, when not to, how to leverage a deal and when to realize you have no leverage ...

... I think we are going through growing pains with DN ... he is learning and unfortunately we are in a rebuilding stage as opposed to having a team that is already built and just needs some minor maintenance and tinkering.

IMO its not a matter of "not having the skills" ... its learning how and when to use them.

Interesting debate ... taking it off the ice as opposed to on the ice !

Grizz

User avatar
MeesterFeester
AHL Prospect
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:41 pm
Location: Trail

Post by MeesterFeester »

IMO its not a matter of "not having the skills" ... its learning how and when to use them.



Grizz[/quote]

You maybe right about him not knowing of the when or how but that is no excuse. He has made some major mistakes that on most teams he would be fired. Like take the Clarke and Hitchcock situation, they put a good team on the but the players just stop believing in themselves and their GM and Coach and what happens , one quits and the other one gets fired. Now I'm not saying Alain should get fired and DN should quit , but maybe somebody should light a fire under their asses and get something done. You have to think that it isn't all the players fault , there just isn't enough scoring in the lineup to compliment the defensive efforts of the team and that right falls on DN's head. How long before a guy like Luongo who has gone through this type of crap in the past takes to ask for a trade to a team that is a contender and gets squat because he's the shopping him around.

Talking about this brought something else to attention , Steven McCarthy, what was he thinking letting of this might have been a minor mistake but I grew with that guy and he is one hell of a hockey player. He may not be huge but he is good with the puck and he will be an offensive threat much like Jovo, that's if the team he is playing for gives him the ice time he needs.

I don't know , IMO DN has to ship up or ship out!

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 8362
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Post by Island Nucklehead »

LOL...you're crazy if you think throwing Morrison in there would get us Jokinen or Horton. We got the best deal we could out of the Bert trade, think about it...Bert is nowhere near as valuable as Luongo. Krajicek adds a different dimension than Allen (who is replaced in quality by Mitchell) and Auld played as well as could be expected and we probably got a better deal than we should have. Bert<Luongo>Krajicek (offset by Mitchell signing which we give up nothing for). Auld>6th rounder ( we don't need him and he was a RFA) We did really well in that deal! So, in essence, we get a top 5 goalie, an offensive D-man, and sign a top 10 defensive dman. We lose the elephant, a decent 3/4 defensive dman, and a potential 1B goalie...

I don't think Luongo will be asking for anything...considering how hard it is to trade anybody these days, let alone a 6 Million goalie. He knows he is the cornerstone of the organization and if this team is going to do ANYTHING it starts with him.

Do you remember McCarthy when he was here? BRUTAL.

As for singing Jovo and a second tier goalie. We tried that route, and we couldn't close out Minnesota with our "great offense." Jovo signed for huge money in Phoenix...so let me ask you this, Luongo or Jovo? If you answer Jovo I will personally call whichever psych ward is nearest to your residence.

Let's face it guys, did anyone expect us to top the standings after last season and all the change we had? We're about as bad as we can get offensively, and we're still close to .500 hockey. I don't see what all the doom and gloom is about. If not this season, then next offseasn, Nonis WILL have to move guys like Cooke, Kesler, and Morrison, that frees up PLENTY of space to sign at least 2 proven goal scorers. I, for one, did not expect this team to contend right away.

Patience, young Jedi's, we have the pieces, it's the supporting cast we're missing, and I think they are much easier to bring in than the foundation.

User avatar
MeesterFeester
AHL Prospect
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:41 pm
Location: Trail

Post by MeesterFeester »

Yeah, I hear what your saying and understand where your coming on the trade front and that we did make alot of changes but that means they should have seen this coming and rectified it. They could of used a draft pick if not the #1 as well as sent Morrison to make sure that they had some kind of offensive talent to replace Bert , Krajicek is a offensive defensemen not a forward so where do you think that he compares with Bert, definately not as great a scorer that's for sure . What you are saying that it's hard to trade a 6 million dollar goalie , Florida did it!

As for the big money contract that Jovo signed I wasn't aware of it never did get past the fact that he never came back, and yes I agree I would pick Luongo any day because your right he's something to build on, unlike Auld or Cloutier or something.

Oh, and McCarthy is a young guy , and most young people make alot of mistakes that doesn't mean you give on them do you ? No you don't, that's like saying the Canucks are making mistakes so i'm going to give up on them. IMO they gave up to fast and it will cost them in the future.

Yeah we are playing .500 but like I said that is no excuse for the lack of goal scoring , we are last in the league with just over 2.00 goals a game , Florida scores more than we do!

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 8362
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Post by Island Nucklehead »

Florida wasn't paying him 6 Million at the time.

I wasn't advocating Krajicek replace Bert's scoring. He helps offset Jovo's to some degree, with mobility from the back end. The theory was Luongo in net would end up offsetting Bert's departure up front. To some degree that has worked. The problem is we lost Carter as well, making it 1/3 of our top forwards gone. Our D hasn't suffered too much, like you said it's our lack of goal scoring...and I think that if we had Bertuzzi in the mix, and Auld in net we would be in much worse shape than we are now.

McCarthy was never going to get a chance here. And honestly he did not do much with the time he was given so I don't feel too badly about it.

I'm not sure how much more of a blockbuster we could have gotten with Florida. Trading our next years #1 pick along with Morrison might be something to look at. But if this team is destined to miss the playoffs I think I would like to have that pick (10-15 overall).

Just as a side note, I noticed John Leclair just went down to the A...keep your eyes open for him to come back up, might be a good time to pick him up for 700K and waive a guy like Bulis.

ververgaert
MVP
MVP
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:18 pm
Location: North Delta

Post by ververgaert »

While I agree that D.N is young and inexperienced I do not agree that he didn't have a team that was not already built and just needed a little tinkering.

Personaly I think the guy needs to be sent packing and the sooner the better. He didn't have enough balls to take the blame for last seasons debackle. He should have gone out and gotten a better goalie ! Auld sucked plain and simple ! Anyone that couldn't see that the team had absolutely no faith in Auld is blind. The Cloutier injury freed up his salary and he could have used that for a better goalie.

Picking up Carney was bad enough but Wienrich? Shit the bed there, totaly and completly crapped all over the place with that.

When the media slime were treating one of his star players like shit Dave Nonis showed his cowardly colors once again by not coming to his players aid and telling the media to grow up and get over it! He never learned that from B.B!

He had a team that was a step or two and some untimley injuries( Naslund, Morrison, Ohlund, Salo Jovanoski, Cloutier) from challenging for the cup!

All he needed to do was to sighn jovo, an legit enforcer ( Simon looks good in long island) and some defensive depth. Now the F@#king pinhead has got to start all over.


Island nucklehead did you watch the Minny series? If you did you would know that Dan Cloutier was the reason the Canucks lost that.
Don Cherry for Prime Minister

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 8362
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Post by Island Nucklehead »

In the final three losses of the Minny series we scored 5 goals. That's all our great, vaunted offence could muster in the clutch? Christ, 1.6 goals/game is worse than we're at now! I really don't see those kind of stats challenging for a cup, unless your the Devils (oh wait, they had Brodeur!).

How did we do in the playoffs last year? You gonna blame that season on Clouts too? Oh right, it's the BACKUP goalie's fault, forget our key players not playing to their potential.

You say all he needed to do was sign Jovo (6 million), Simon (1 Million) and some defensive depth. Where do you plan on paying for a GOALIE? Or were you going to use Auld? Maybe you'd stick with Cloutier after placing all the blame on him for the previous early exits?

I'm sorry, using the goaltending argument dosn't cut it, that team was built for one purpose, to score goals. At the end of the night, when it mattered most, those guys couldn't score more than the Wild, the Flames and finally...well we know where they ended last season. We didn't pay top dollar for a goalie and it showed.

IMO, Nonis made the best of the situation in the offseason, and there's no doubt in my mind this is not meant to be a one year turnaround from missing the playoffs to contender. If he's smart he'll shed some more salary and try to swing a deal for some help using our picks/prospects. In fact, looking at who beat us in the past few playoff series, and the style they played...if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! ;)

ververgaert
MVP
MVP
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:18 pm
Location: North Delta

Post by ververgaert »

Yes Island last season was the back up goalies fault. Plain and simple. The long term injuries to six of our top seven players didn't help and was a large contributing factor but for the most part it was goaltending. Really piss poor goaltending.

The goals that minny scored on Cloutier were mostly pretty weak in those last three games.
Plus that wasn't the only series he threw out the window, see Detriot. Also if the flu and Osgoods own meltdown didn't happen St. Louis would have mostly been on his shoulders.

Sure that team was offensively talented but if your going to pay all that for goals why not have someone to maybe stop some. Its like buying a 1000$ suit and a pair of 10 buck canvas sneakers to wear with it. Auld and Cloutier being the canvas sneakers.

Well the cap went up and getting rid of Cloutier after Nonis's best off season move, canning Crawford is a start. Then perhaps trading the Schnider kid to Buffalo or San jose or Anahiem for one of there surplus quality goalies is a start

If we look at the teams that beat us the last few years and the style that they played? That style is shit! Its f--king boring! Its whats wrong with hockey today! The flames arn't as bad as Minny but f-ck man I watch hockey to be entertained! This version of the Canucks is boring! At least last years team had some personality. This team outside of a few are like drones.
Don Cherry for Prime Minister

User avatar
MeesterFeester
AHL Prospect
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:41 pm
Location: Trail

Post by MeesterFeester »

[quote="Island Nucklehead"]Florida wasn't paying him 6 Million at the time.

I wasn't advocating Krajicek replace Bert's scoring. He helps offset Jovo's to some degree, with mobility from the back end. The theory was Luongo in net would end up offsetting Bert's departure up front. To some degree that has worked. The problem is we lost Carter as well, making it 1/3 of our top forwards gone. Our D hasn't suffered too much, like you said it's our lack of goal scoring...and I think that if we had Bertuzzi in the mix, and Auld in net we would be in much worse shape than we are now.

McCarthy was never going to get a chance here. And honestly he did not do much with the time he was given so I don't feel too badly about it.

I'm not sure how much more of a blockbuster we could have gotten with Florida. Trading our next years #1 pick along with Morrison might be something to look at. But if this team is destined to miss the playoffs I think I would like to have that pick (10-15 overall).

Just as a side note, I noticed John Leclair just went down to the A...keep your eyes open for him to come back up, might be a good time to pick him up for 700K and waive a guy like Bulis.[/quote]

If they weren't paying him that much then when Bert got their it went way up and even if they were paying 4-5 million they are quite a few teams that have goalies in their prime or even young that are second tier and signed Jovo to those big bucks. Not that they should trade Luongo but that they could have gotten more for Bert.

Well that was my point that they should seen have this before hand , thats the bigger picture I was talking about. If you take away scoring and add better defense you get 1-3 goal games that you will never win because you took away that extra offensive force , in the end you put your team in this predicament.You just can't expect a bunch rookies,grinders and hasbins to fill the empty void that Bert left, DN obviously didn't think clearly enough about this task. Krajicek does kind fill in Jovo's shoes and hopefully in 1-3 years he will completely. I agree not Carter signing was a big mistake, that I think was DN's third mstake if not his first. Having Auld in net would be disasturous and we would probably be well under .500.

As for McCarthy , I know we won't ever see him in a Canucks uniform again but he is young may well see the error in his efforts and correct them.

You are right, but whats life without the risk , this is hockey it's risky just playing the sport not to mention not knowing whether your going to get hurt, traded or simply let go. If Nonis had used a draft pick and Morrison , whichever, and gotten somebody even with decent scoring ability he may even not be in this pickle to begin with or as you said we could be out of a draft pick and going down the same road, I think he should have taken the risk.

Dave Nonis is a soft, cowardly man who is not suited for any GM job!

User avatar
rockalt
MVP
MVP
Posts: 808
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:47 pm
Location: London

Post by rockalt »

ververgaert wrote: If we look at the teams that beat us the last few years and the style that they played? That style is shit! Its f--king boring! Its whats wrong with hockey today! The flames arn't as bad as Minny but f-ck man I watch hockey to be entertained! This version of the Canucks is boring! At least last years team had some personality. This team outside of a few are like drones.
Exactly Ververgaert! That's what's bothering me the most about this year's team. I hate this style of hockey and yet the Canucks are forced to play it this year because they simply no longer have the talent to play a run 'n gun (which I think is more suited to Luongo's game anyway). It's a crying shame we never had Luongo on those early 2000 teams because he would simply thrive in that environment where Cloutier and others had failed.

I think dealing for Luongo is a very positive move for the franchise but I can't help but get a little depressed with the team we have now. In the early 2000s, at least I could say I felt lucky to be fan of the Vancouver Canucks because they were arguably the most entertaining team in the league. I was proud that they were employing a run 'n gun style when so many others reverted to the trap. I always looked down on the Minnesota's and Calgary's for their boring ass style of play. Now we're no better.

I'll keep supporting the team regardless but I'm a little depressed with their identity these days. I miss the run 'n gun and the core from those teams.

When it comes down to it, I'll take entertainment over success any day. The point of the sport is to entertain first and foremost. I may be in the minority but I'd rather watch my team lose valiantly in the playoffs in an exciting series than watch them trap their way to the Cup.

As for someone's comment regarding the Minnesota series of 2002-2003, it was goaltending that cost us that series! I was at game 7. Ohlund hit the post when we were already up 2-0. We were completely dominating the Wild then Cloutier let in a fluke goal (to be fair, it was a complete fluke and he had no chance). That really took the wind out of their sails though. In the third period Cloutier simply folded. You could see the team in front of him simply did not have confidence in his abilities. After the first goal, it was like there was a collective grimace by the players of "Oh know, here we go again."

randymeeks
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:43 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

Post by randymeeks »

When it comes down to it, I'll take entertainment over success any day. The point of the sport is to entertain first and foremost. I may be in the minority but I'd rather watch my team lose valiantly in the playoffs in an exciting series than watch them trap their way to the Cup.

I respectfully disagree, rockalt. I don't care about a boring style of play. I want to WIN. Sure, this is the entertainment industry but 36 years and counting without a Cup hardly makes me care about being entertained. Remember when Dave Nonis said Bobby Clarke would kick his Grandmother down a flight of stairs if it meant winning? Well, my Grandmother died this past summer. She never saw the Canucks win a Cup. And I wouldn't be shocked if my Grandmother, God Bless her soul, woulda asked me to kick her down a flight of stairs if it meant that she woulda seen the Canucks win a Cup. :cry:

If you have that Game 7 between Minny and the Canucks on tape, I hope people will compare the offensive chances that the Canucks had versus the chances Minny had. I said back then and still say we would have lost with Patrick Roy or Roberto Luongo in net. Have the Cloutier bashers ever bothered to wonder why the old core was never able to hold a third period lead? Does everyone here actually think that it was always all goaltending? I believe Cloutier and Auld deserved their fair share of the blame but it wasn't all goaltending, folks. I blame the old coaching staff and the stupidity of certain players who were defensive liabilites.
38 years without a Stanley Cup and counting.

User avatar
jchockey
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1551
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by jchockey »

I wouldn't be so quick to point out Nonis' shortcomings as a GM. With the new CBA it is much harder to swing trades, especially big name players. There is simply too much to consider: team chemistry, market value, player salary, filling holes in the lineup, etc.

However, that being said I totally agree with some of you that a lot of the signings and veteran pickups we made were absolutely brutal - particularly Weinrich last year, Bulis and Santala this year. Mitchell's signing I didn't like either - but if the cost of replacing Bryan Allen (who imo is the better player) is $3.2m, then so be it. Coupled with underachieving forwards like Morrison and Cooke, you've really got a offensively-challenged lineup. Naslund is overrated imo in his ability to carry a team's offense. To me, he's always been more of a 1B option rather than a 1A like a Kovalchuk or a Sundin or even a Selanne.

Jovanovski is not the best defensive player we've ever had. In fact, he is so overrated that any GM in the right mind would not pay him $7m a year. He brings another dimension to our offense, and that was what made him lethal. By offensive skill alone he cannot carry a team either, but the fact that we had Bertuzzi, Naslund, and the Sedins for other team's to worry about gave Jovo a bit more freedom to pinch in and contribute offensively.

There are a number of things I would've done differently as GM (for one, I would've snatched up Yanic Perreault right quick). The injury bug has bit us hard again this year, and there's a rough road ahead. But I don't doubt that this team can stay above .500, and if we do make the playoffs, we're going to make some noise because Luongo is in net. Whoever argues that our problems lie with Luongo is being stupid.

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 8362
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Post by Island Nucklehead »

The problem with the cap is we have to be prudent of where we spend our money. IMHO, goaltending is the best place. Everyone knows that if you're going to win a cup you need a great string of games by the keeper (shit even to get to the finals). Yes, it's nice to watch the team pile up wins in the regular season, having Bertuzzi bash over d-men to the net and scoring was probably the best... But all that great feeling comes crashing down when we're upset in the playoffs by a team that is much less talented, but works harder as a team.

I'm with Randy on this one, I used to hate watching Calgary games...but you know what, I would rather sit through a season or boring games, and watch my team bash their way to the finals than the reverse. That being said, this team might not make the playoffs this year, but I can sympathize more with guys that play their balls off, get horrible bounces the other way and fail. The same can't be said for a high-priced offence that lazes around the ice, bitches every shift, and can't close out a game if their daughters virginity was on the line.

I don't get all the people here that say goaltending was our problem...you should be dancing in the streets. We have a top 5 goalie in the league! Did you think he would come for cheap? We have the most important piece that this club was missing for the last decade, and I believe it's easier to replace goal scoring than it is to find a quality goalie.

Post Reply