Anything CARTER can do........NASLUND can do better?

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Postby rockalt » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:14 pm

No offense but this has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I have seen in a while.

I can understand trading Naslund for cap space but that's pretty useless to do unless you can use that space to boost our offense.

It's true that Nazzy is no longer a superstar but he's still ridiculously better than Anson Carter. I'm a fan of Carter but if Nonis ever traded Nazzy straight up for Carter I would have to detach myself from this team for a few weeks because I would be pissed off.

Sedins'/Pyatt have been a decent line, whereas Sedins'/Carter were quite possibly among the best lines in hockey last season.

The WCE line pre-2004 were a powerhouse. The Sedin-Sedin-Carter line LAST YEAR was a powerhouse (and I don't buy into the whole argument of this line only being as good as it was because they never faced the top d-men from other teams IMO, they still would've been just as productive ).


As good as the Sedins and Carter were last year I think you seriously overrate them. They were arguably the best 2nd line in hockey last year but they didn't post the numbers to be considered an elite 1st line. That's what the WCE was for two years. They were without a doubt the best line in hockey. Two first-team all-stars says it all.

Actually this is one thing which I was really afraid of last year. There are HUGE expectations on the Sedins this year to replace the void left by the fall of the WCE. They are expected to make the jump from elite second liners to elite first liners. I think they'll be decent to good first liners but anything more than that is a little unrealistic. Let's not kid ourselves. The Sedin line, as solid and good as it is, pales in comparison to the WCE in its prime. I hope they can keep it up but it will be tough. They started off the year ridiculously well but I think their play has dropped off slightly in the last few games. They were completely ineffective against a very dominant Anaheim defense. I'm not slagging them or saying they can't do the job as a first line but I'm not about to cast them as being better than Nazzy.

You mention that Nazzy can't carry the second line but that's not his damn fault. The real culprit is Brendan Morrison. His 3.2 million salary is killing us. If he were playing up to his potential then we wouldn't be having this conversation. He needs to be traded unless he rediscovers his game soon.

The fact is no one on this team can carry the second line, not Nazzy, not Daniel, not Henrik. I think it would even be asking a lot of Nazzy 2001-2004 to carry his line the way his linemates have been playing. Daniel and Henrik benefit from the fact they constitute 2/3 of a line. Nazzy simply has no one to play with and if it were either one of Henrik or Daniel in the same situation they wouldn't be any more effective.

Bottomline. Nazzy is still the heart and soul of this team. Despite his drop in production he is still the most talented player out there and continues to be the "go to guy." Someone mentioned in a previous thread that when the game is on the line you want Nazzy taking the last shot not Daniel or Henrik (and that's no slight on the Sedins). Now what sense does it make to trade away your best player on a team that is struggling offensively? It makes far more sense to unload the guys who aren't producing first.

Let's not even get started on all the other ramifications of trading away the face of your franchise. That's a pretty big void to fill.
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Postby gmisinthegarage » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:27 pm

Carter got his second of the year tonight :roll:
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Postby Hank » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:29 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:Stephen Hawking could pot 20 or more with these guys.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I feel ashamed for laughing :oops:
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:50 pm

rockalt wrote:No offense but this has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I have seen in a while.

I can understand trading Naslund for cap space but that's pretty useless to do unless you can use that space to boost our offense.


I don't think I did a very good job in explaining myself in my post. I apologize for this. When I suggested trading Naslund for Carter (or someone of his ilk), I wasn't trying to imply that it should be a "one for one" deal.

The point I was TRYING to make, was that trading Naslund (for a guy like Carter) would almost be like trading Naslund away for a CLONE of himself (minus 3.5 million).....since Naslund (and a guy like Carter) are basically similar in their role as Canucks (i.e. play great alongside the Sedin twins, but are unproductive without them).

Since Carter has low value right now and (imo) would basically be similar to how Naslund is right now as a Canuck (while at the same time, Naslund would do far more in Columbus than Carter), I think a Naslund/Carter deal might not be such a bad idea......since that would also free up 3.5 mill in cap space.

Now what we do with that "extra" 3.5 mill in cap space is up to us.

a) From the Anson Carter deal, we could get a few other solid players in return (I'm not sure who else CBJ would be willing to trade away). These solid players can help us either with our 2nd/3rd line depth, or even on the blue-line.

b) If it's a Naslund/Carter deal straight up, we could receive high-end draft picks as well (and still have the extra 3.5 mill at the trade deadline to make some key moves.....like Edmonton did last year).

It's true that Nazzy is no longer a superstar but he's still ridiculously better than Anson Carter. I'm a fan of Carter but if Nonis ever traded Nazzy straight up for Carter I would have to detach myself from this team for a few weeks because I would be pissed off.


I am not denying that Naslund is a better play than Carter. In fact, he's a MUCH better player than Carter. As it relates to their role as CANUCKS however, I don't think there's much difference between the two (atleast from what I've seen so far this season). Both Carter and Naslund can't seem to do much without the Sedins'.

A 2.5 million dollar player like Carter, shouldn't be expected to. A 6 million dollar like Naslund however, SHOULD....and he hasn't.


As good as the Sedins and Carter were last year I think you seriously overrate them. They were arguably the best 2nd line in hockey last year but they didn't post the numbers to be considered an elite 1st line. That's what the WCE was for two years. They were without a doubt the best line in hockey. Two first-team all-stars says it all.


You also have to take into consideration that Sedin/Sedin/Carter also got 2nd line ICE-TIME (which may explain why their numbers weren't as high as other "1st liners"). But yes - the presence of the WCE line did take pressure off them...I agree there.


You mention that Nazzy can't carry the second line but that's not his damn fault. The real culprit is Brendan Morrison. His 3.2 million salary is killing us. If he were playing up to his potential then we wouldn't be having this conversation. He needs to be traded unless he rediscovers his game soon.


I totally agree here. Morrison and Bulis have been beyond terrible this season. Ditto for Cooke. Again - it's tough to trade a guy like Morrison since he has almost zero trade value.

At the end of the day however, Naslund is being wasted away on the 2nd line IMO. Even if it's Morrison/Bulis' fault, Naslund's numbers simply haven't been the same since leaving the Sedin line.

Bottomline. Nazzy is still the heart and soul of this team. Despite his drop in production he is still the most talented player out there and continues to be the "go to guy." Someone mentioned in a previous thread that when the game is on the line you want Nazzy taking the last shot not Daniel or Henrik (and that's no slight on the Sedins). Now what sense does it make to trade away your best player on a team that is struggling offensively? It makes far more sense to unload the guys who aren't producing first.


Again - it boils down to trade value. Outside of Luongo, Sedins', Ohlund, Mitchell, Salo, Bourdon, Schneider, and Naslund, no one on the Canucks has any REAL trade value IMHO.

If you can get a guy (Carter) who will essentially "do the same thing" as Naslund is currently doing as a Canuck (for 3.5 mill less....and again, I'm not saying that Carter is as good as Naslund) PLUS...having that extra 3.5 mill to upgrade other areas, then I think it's worth a thought.

Let's not even get started on all the other ramifications of trading away the face of your franchise. That's a pretty big void to fill.


I would argue that Roberto Luongo and the Sedin twins are the new faces of the franchise.
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Postby rockalt » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:08 am

I would argue that Roberto Luongo and the Sedin twins are the new faces of the franchise


You know what Farhan, I would say that's a pretty fair point. I have been a pretty big supporter of the Sedins for years and am grateful they were never traded as some fans suggested they should be a few years ago, when they were so-called "Sedin sisters."

Excuse me, I'm quite drunk so I hope this comes out somewhat literate. While I see your point, I have to ask if you don't think that Naslund is still the face of the franchise. I can see Lungo being the "new face" because he plays a different position and is the "franchise goalie" - something we have never had. However, do you think the Sedins have supplanted Naslund as the face of the franchise? What does everyone think? Honestly as great as the Sedins have been I don't think they have drastically outplayed Naslund enough to take that title from him. I still think he is very much the "face of the franchise." Him and Luongo at least. Thoughts?
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:32 pm

rockalt wrote:
I would argue that Roberto Luongo and the Sedin twins are the new faces of the franchise


You know what Farhan, I would say that's a pretty fair point. I have been a pretty big supporter of the Sedins for years and am grateful they were never traded as some fans suggested they should be a few years ago, when they were so-called "Sedin sisters."


Hey,

To be brutally honest, I was actually a harsh critic of the "Sedin sisters." I had actually written them off, and had no idea that they'd develop as much as they have. I'm very happy to say that I was wrong. :)


Excuse me, I'm quite drunk so I hope this comes out somewhat literate. While I see your point, I have to ask if you don't think that Naslund is still the face of the franchise. I can see Lungo being the "new face" because he plays a different position and is the "franchise goalie" - something we have never had. However, do you think the Sedins have supplanted Naslund as the face of the franchise? What does everyone think?


In my opinion, the "face" of the franchise is either the team's best player......OR is a guy who is far and away the biggest leader on the team. As it relates to the latter for instance, guys like Steve Yzerman and Scott Stevens were still the "faces of their franchise" during their last years, despite no longer being the best players on their respective teams.

In my opinion, Naslund is no longer the team's best player, and he's also not "far and away" the teams biggest leader. Naslund is a very good leader, but I don't put him in the same boat as guys like Yzerman, Stevens, and Sakic.

Honestly as great as the Sedins have been I don't think they have drastically outplayed Naslund enough to take that title from him. I still think he is very much the "face of the franchise." Him and Luongo at least. Thoughts?


I think a lot of it has to do with age as well. At 25 (or 26?), The Sedin twins are hitting their prime (IMO - a player is usually at his best physically and mentally between the ages of 28-32).

At 33, Naslund seems to be passing his prime (and his play is a reflection of that). I think a lot of fans have noticed this as well.

If Naslund (or even Linden) had won a Stanley Cup as a Canuck, then things would be different (i.e. in terms of who the fans perceive to be the face of the Canucks).

Right now however - I think Luongo and the Sedin Twins are our faces.
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Postby Sid Dithers » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:54 am

Farhan Lalji wrote:As good as Naslund is however (at $6 million), he cannot carry the 2nd line. With or without Naslund, our 2nd line has been pretty weak.

The whole point of having a guy like Naslund (over a guy like Carter for instance), is so that the Canucks can have more than respectable scoring line. I'd argue that this is not the case right now.

Atleast with Carter (at 2.5 mill), you'd get a guy that EVERYONE knows is useless without the Sedins' (but excellent with them). The rest of the 3.5 million can be used to help shore up the 2nd and 3rd lines (and if not that, maybe even the blue-line).

Bottom line: If Naslund, without the Sedins', cannot help/ignite the 2nd line, then he's basically no different than Anson Carter......just 3.5 million dollars more expensive.

I get the picture, and your logic isn't wrong. But these are decisions that need to be made during the summer. Once the season starts and you're nearing the cap, trades are too damn tough to make. Who can afford to take on Nazzy's salary knowing he's passing his prime? Who's gonna take Morrison off our hands? The tough, analytical decisions have to be made in July, not November.
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