Anything CARTER can do........NASLUND can do better?

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Anything CARTER can do........NASLUND can do better?

Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:25 pm

Anything CARTER can do........NASLUND can do better?

I think it's fair to say the following about Anson Carter:

-The Sedins' made Anson Carter last season
-Anson Carter fit perfectly with the Sedins' last season
-Markus Naslund is a much better play than Anson Carter
-Anson Carter is fairly useless without the Sedins'
-Anson Carter AND Markus Naslund are fairly useless without the Sedins'

Now obviously, point #5 is gonna certain people off on here....and that's a good thing! It opens the floor for debate.

I think we can all agree that Markus Naslund, while still a very very good hockey player (and much better than Anson Carter), is no longer a "SUPERSTAR". Naslund can no longer make the mediocre look good......like the Sedin twins can for instance.

Naslund does not have ability to carry Morrison and Bulis (and it's a damn shame that he NEEDS to carry them.....since Morrison and Bulis have grossly underachieved thus far).

I guess the point I'm trying to make here, is that Markus Naslund is being paid 6 million dollars. Anson Carter is being paid $2.5 million dollars. The Columbus Blue Jackets probably wouldn't be heartbroken over trading away Carter.

So - given the fact that...

A) Carter is useless without the Sedin twins
B) Naslund can seemingly no longer "carry" a line without a decent center and/or top decent linemates..

Would you consider trading Naslund for Anson Carter?.....and if not Anson Carter, some other RW worth around 2.5 million dollars.....one of which can flourish under the Sedin line (like Naslund did), but saving us 3.5 million.

With that saved up 3.5 million, the Canucks can then either add another defenseman and/or 2nd/3rd line depth. Naslund on the other hand (if he went to a team like Columbus for instance), could play alongside a highly skilled Sergei Fedorov.

Although Taylor Pyatt has played fairly well with the Sedins', the truth is that almost anyone can play "fairly well" with the Sedins'. You'd have to almost TRY to not score playing with the Sedins'.

Sedin Twins + Pyatt = a decent line
Sedin Twins + Naslund = excellent line
Sedin Twins + Anson Carter = excellent line
Sedin Twins + anyRWworth2.5millwithdecentscoringability = excellent line.

If the Canucks are to have any offensive success this year, they'll need the Sedins' to be an EXCELLENT line. Having some secondary scoring would be nice as well.

-Right now - the Canucks have ZERO secondary scoring and have a "decent" line in Sedin-Sedin-Pyatt.

-If Naslund moves up to the Sedin line, the Canucks will have one EXCELLENT scoring line, but ZERO secondary scoring.

-If we had someone like Anson Carter here instead of Naslund, the Canucks would have one EXCELLENT scoring line, and 3.5 million saved in cap space.....money that can be used to improve our secondary scoring or add another blue-liner.
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Few more tidbits

Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:35 pm

-To clear cap space, I'd also try and move Kesler. Unlike Morrison and/or Cooke (who are also overpaid), it would be easier to move Kesler due to his potential...and young age. I know many will disagree with me on here, but Kesler is a dime a dozen Him being here for 1.9 mill is crazy IMO.

-As it relates to Sedin-Sedin-Naslund.........or Sedin-Sedin-Carter.......at this point, I really don't care if the Canucks become a "one-line" team. I'd rather be a "one-line" team than a ZERO-line team like we are now.

In yesteryear, the Canucks seemed to do just fine being a one-line team....even if the opposition knew that we were like that.

The WCE line pre-2004 were a powerhouse. The Sedin-Sedin-Carter line LAST YEAR was a powerhouse (and I don't buy into the whole argument of this line only being as good as it was because they never faced the top d-men from other teams IMO, they still would've been just as productive). The Canucks' shortcomings from yesteryear had FAR more to do with lack of goaltending and grit/work ethic, than it did with secondary scoring.

The Canucks this year HAVE the goaltending and the work ethic. Being a one-line team isn't the greatest of scenarios, but since when has that ever been a "weakness" for us?
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Postby the Cunning Linguist » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:41 pm

Without the usual kneejerk reaction, I'll try to respond... First, you seem to forget that when Carter was here, the WCE still commanded most of the attention of the best checking lines and defence on the opposition; that of course changed later in the year. Trading Naslund for Carter essentially makes Vancouver a one line team, plus a bunch of plumbers; they cannot carry this team now, nor under that scenario. Trading for Carter essentially raises the salary load on that one line by the difference between Pyatt's salary and Carter's - 2.5M-$700k=$1.8M and for what? Marginally better scoring? Maybe? No, I wouldn't do it.

If all the scoring is concentrated on the Sedin line, how is that any different than it is now? Oh yeah, we wouldn't have one of the best LW scoring threats over the last 5 years any longer...
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Re: Few more tidbits

Postby Harold » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:49 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote:-To clear cap space, I'd also try and move Kesler. Unlike Morrison and/or Cooke (who are also overpaid), it would be easier to move Kesler due to his potential...and young age. I know many will disagree with me on here, but Kesler is a dime a dozen Him being here for 1.9 mill is crazy IMO.



Kesler can't be traded!
Relates to his offer sheet.

Wouldn't a member of the media know this?
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:53 pm

the Cunning Linguist wrote:Without the usual kneejerk reaction, I'll try to respond... First, you seem to forget that when Carter was here, the WCE still commanded most of the attention of the best checking lines and defence on the opposition; that of course changed later in the year.


And when that changed later in the year, the Sedin-Sedin-Carter line was STILL dominant. Pre-2004, the WCE line was STILL dominant despite them getting all the attention from the top D and checkers.

Trading Naslund for Carter essentially makes Vancouver a one line team, plus a bunch of plumbers; they cannot carry this team now, nor under that scenario.


IMO, being a one-line team is better than being a ZERO line team (which is what the Canucks are right now). In the past, the Canucks never had problems putting the puck in the net despite being a one-line team.

Trading for Carter essentially raises the salary load on that one line by the difference between Pyatt's salary and Carter's - 2.5M-$700k=$1.8M and for what? Marginally better scoring? Maybe? No, I wouldn't do it.


I'd argue that Sedin-Sedin-Carter would be significantly better than Sedin-Sedin-Pyatt. I'm not taking anything away from Pyatt. I'm very proud of what he's done for us this year, but he's still a below average player overall......one that has looked decent playing alongside the Sedins. Carter is an average player overall....and the Sedins' made him almost look like a superstar.


If all the scoring is concentrated on the Sedin line, how is that any different than it is now? Oh yeah, we wouldn't have one of the best LW scoring threats over the last 5 years any longer...


Naslund does not seem to be on the level that he once was. Moving Naslund in this case, would free up considerable cap space.
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Re: Few more tidbits

Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:55 pm

Harold wrote:Kesler can't be traded!
Relates to his offer sheet.

Wouldn't a member of the media know this?


I was not aware of this. My bad.

As a prominent member of TSN, I should know better. ;)
Farhan Lalji
 

Postby Sid Dithers » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:30 pm

No I wouldn't take Carter back, that ship has sailed. Yes, Naslund is a better player. Anyone can walk down this road till your legs fall off. But the real problem has nothing to do with the Canucks top offensive players. It has to do with all the other players. If anyone thinks that the Sedins and Naslund are under pressure to score only 17 games into the season, imagine what it will be like by about game 60, with the Canucks on the outside looking in, Cooke and Kesler have 8 goals combined, and Green, Chouinard and Santala are still looking for their first of the year. Not to mention the team won't be getting much offensive help from the D corps this year. The truth is, Nonis loaded up the second, third and fourth lines with a bunch of stiffs and counted on guys who are on the downside to regain their form (Morrison and Cooke). And apart from some goals by Pyatt, none of it is working. The Sedins and Nazzy look like they are under the gun right now, but this is child's play compared to the pressure that is surely coming if some of these other plumbers don't start denting twine. And the cynic in me just doesn't see this happening in any meaningful way. At which point DN will come to realize the problem that is created with having a 6.75 mill goalie in a salary cap system.
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Postby Badfish » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:53 pm

...this whole post makes me wonder as to the truthfullness of Farhan's name...

First off, comparing Naslund to Carter is ridiculous. you are right about Carter, but Naslund without the twins is hardly useless.

Second, Naslund never carried a line before really, if you think about it. This season is proof itself that the success of the WCE line was not due to one individual carrying the rest, but about 3 quite good players who just clicked.

As for the Kesler thing, c'mon man! how could you miss that? Obviously 1.9 for Kesler being here is crazy, which is why we were about to sign him for less then half that before we got screwed into a bad situation by the now fired Bobby Clarke. There's nothing we can do with him but hope he either A) plays well enough to earn his 1.9 or B) Sign him for a more resonable price next year after not fullfilling his 1.9 this year. When it all went down, that was a hotpoint on these forums, whether to keep Kesler for that price or let him go to philly and use that cap room more effectively. Who knows, had that not happened, maybe Nonis would have used that extra cap space to sign another player.

as was said above, our problems are not with our top offensive players, but with the rest. a good idea imo is Keep naslund, trade one of our trys-hard-but-can't-score forwards (ie Morrison, Cooke, pretty much anyone outside the Sedins, Pyatt and naslund.) for some offensive help to play with naslund, keeping the twin line intact while getting some talent for naslund to play with. Then we'd have two very solid lines. Of course, this is easier said then done. The debate between what we need more, an offensive forward or a defenseman is better left to another thread.

I enjoy your posts Farhan, and I want to believe you are who you say you are, but on this one I just think you're way off :)
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:58 pm

Sid Dithers wrote:No I wouldn't take Carter back, that ship has sailed. Yes, Naslund is a better player. Anyone can walk down this road till your legs fall off. But the real problem has nothing to do with the Canucks top offensive players. It has to do with all the other players. If anyone thinks that the Sedins and Naslund are under pressure to score only 17 games into the season, imagine what it will be like by about game 60, with the Canucks on the outside looking in, Cooke and Kesler have 8 goals combined, and Green, Chouinard and Santala are still looking for their first of the year. Not to mention the team won't be getting much offensive help from the D corps this year. The truth is, Nonis loaded up the second, third and fourth lines with a bunch of stiffs and counted on guys who are on the downside to regain their form (Morrison and Cooke). And apart from some goals by Pyatt, none of it is working. The Sedins and Nazzy look like they are under the gun right now, but this is child's play compared to the pressure that is surely coming if some of these other plumbers don't start denting twine. And the cynic in me just doesn't see this happening in any meaningful way. At which point DN will come to realize the problem that is created with having a 6.75 mill goalie in a salary cap system.


You're right in what you say.

Like you say - the Canucks biggest problem right now is the fact that they have ZERO secondary scoring.

As good as Naslund is however (at $6 million), he cannot carry the 2nd line. With or without Naslund, our 2nd line has been pretty weak.

The whole point of having a guy like Naslund (over a guy like Carter for instance), is so that the Canucks can have more than respectable scoring line. I'd argue that this is not the case right now.

Atleast with Carter (at 2.5 mill), you'd get a guy that EVERYONE knows is useless without the Sedins' (but excellent with them). The rest of the 3.5 million can be used to help shore up the 2nd and 3rd lines (and if not that, maybe even the blue-line).

Bottom line: If Naslund, without the Sedins', cannot help/ignite the 2nd line, then he's basically no different than Anson Carter......just 3.5 million dollars more expensive.
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:18 pm

Badfish wrote:...this whole post makes me wonder as to the truthfullness of Farhan's name...


How dare you! :P

First off, comparing Naslund to Carter is ridiculous. you are right about Carter, but Naslund without the twins is hardly useless.


Naslund isn't useless without the twins but for 6 mill, shouldn't you expect more? Without the twins, how many goals/points does Naslund have this year? Has Naslund's line (sans Sedin twins) looked at ALL good this season? (save for maybe one or two games).

Furthermore, Naslund doesn't kill penalties, isn't the greatest defensive player, and won't hurt you physically.

I'm NOT saying that Naslund and Carter are the same. What I am saying however, is that Naslund hasn't done much this year without the Sedins'. I question whether he still has the ability to. If he no longer does, then his role/use/worth (as it pertains to the Canucks) is not much different than what Carter's would be.


Second, Naslund never carried a line before really, if you think about it. This season is proof itself that the success of the WCE line was not due to one individual carrying the rest, but about 3 quite good players who just clicked.


I agree to an extent, but disagree as well. Did you watch Naslund play around 2000/2001? THAT was the year that the Canucks played the Avs in the 1st round. Naslund carried the Canucks on his ass that year. When Naslund broke his leg, the Canucks were finished.



As for the Kesler thing, c'mon man! how could you miss that? Obviously 1.9 for Kesler being here is crazy, which is why we were about to sign him for less then half that before we got screwed into a bad situation by the now fired Bobby Clarke. There's nothing we can do with him but hope he either A) plays well enough to earn his 1.9 or B) Sign him for a more resonable price next year after not fullfilling his 1.9 this year.


I was unaware of the fact that we can't trade Kesler. I apologize for that. At the time however, I was UNHAPPY that the Canucks signed Kesler. I still stand by that. Hopefully, he picks it up.

as was said above, our problems are not with our top offensive players, but with the rest. a good idea imo is Keep naslund, trade one of our trys-hard-but-can't-score forwards (ie Morrison, Cooke, pretty much anyone outside the Sedins, Pyatt and naslund.) for some offensive help to play with naslund, keeping the twin line intact while getting some talent for naslund to play with. Then we'd have two very solid lines. Of course, this is easier said then done. The debate between what we need more, an offensive forward or a defenseman is better left to another thread.


The problem with that scenario, is that Morrison and Cooke probably won't fetch us much right now (unless we trade one of them for another overpaid player....which ultimately, won't really make us better).


I enjoy your posts Farhan, and I want to believe you are who you say you are, but on this one I just think you're way off :)


I appreciate your input Badfish, but I stand by my comments. By trading Naslund for another RW (like Carter...who is worth 2.5 mill and can play brilliantly with the Sedins'), you free up 3.5 mill in cap space. This freed up 3.5 mill can then be used to improve the 2nd/3rd lines (or defense....or wherever we see fit).

Having Nazzy for 6 million here is only justifiable, if he can successfully anchor the 2nd line....and allow us to have secondary scoring. So far, he has proven that he can't do it.
Last edited by Farhan Lalji on Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Badfish » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:19 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote:Bottom line: If Naslund, without the Sedins', cannot help/ignite the 2nd line, then he's basically no different than Anson Carter......just 3.5 million dollars more expensive.


True, but so then why would we want Carter, aside from the salary loss? no sense bringing him back to play with the twins, as Pyatt's doing a fine job so far, and Carter on the second line does us no good.

I can see your point in that naslund's 6 mil may be better used elsewhere if he can't contribute on the second line, (although I'd rather add an offensive player to play with him first) but there are other players I would look to deal first. if we do trade him somewhere we better get more back then a frickin' anson carter. maybe 2 of them, but it's not worth the cap room if we're just going to get more mediocre players who have trouble scoring.
<b>
Edit:</b> Ok, after reading your response to my last post, I see I mis-understood your comments. I do see the validity in considering trading Naslund for the cap space, as it very well may help us out quite a bit, especially long-term. However, Naslund has a no-trade clause, and I would imagine he doesn't want to go to a new team at this point in his career. That being said, stranger things have happened :)
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:34 pm

[quote="Badfish"
True, but so then why would we want Carter, aside from the salary loss? no sense bringing him back to play with the twins, as Pyatt's doing a fine job so far, and Carter on the second line does us no good.


I'd argue that Sedin-Sedin-Carter was better than Sedin-Sedin-Pyatt. Sedins'/Pyatt have been a decent line, whereas Sedins'/Carter were quite possibly among the best lines in hockey last season.

It's debatable (IMO) as to whether this was because the top checkers and top d-men from opposing teams were focused on the WCE line (I'd argue that "bro" line still would've been almost as successful).

Carter's value is low right now, so I dunno......

Since Naslund would have a far more productive role in Columbus (than Carter), perhaps we'd get some other great value in return (I'm not totally familar with CBJ's roster).

If not Anson Carter, then maybe someone of that mold.

I can see your point in that naslund's 6 mil may be better used elsewhere if he can't contribute on the second line, (although I'd rather add an offensive player to play with him first) but there are other players I would look to deal first. if we do trade him somewhere we better get more back then a frickin' anson carter. maybe 2 of them, but it's not worth the cap room if we're just going to get more mediocre players who have trouble scoring.
[/quote]

The truth is, who on the Canucks has any trade value right now? Luongo and the Sedin twins are untouchable.

Morrison, Bulis, Cooke, Chouinard, and basically all of our other forwards have minimal value.

Our defense is thin as it is, and so I question whether trading any of our top d-men (for forward help) is wise at this point (I created a Ohlund for possible scoring help' thread yesterday :P ).

I think it would be foolish to trade Luc Bourdon or Cory Schneider at this point....as these guys still have time to grow into superstars.

Lastly - don't underestimate the value of having cap room. Although I'd highly prefer if we got multiple players in return (if we traded Naslund), look at what the Oilers did last year with freed up cap room.
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Postby Badfish » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:58 pm

Alright, I'm comming around and can see your points, I'll admit :wink:. Still though, I think to trade away our captain and all time leading scorer, we'd have to get more then just Anson Carter and cap space back. Also I'd find it hard to believe that after not signing him in the offseason, they'd go back on that and trade naslund for him just to hope that he can find his touch with the twins again for another 30+ goals.

I personally think the twins can play with anyone, to varying extents. Yes, last season Carter looked mighty good with them, and Pyatt's looked good but not great this season, but I'm not sure that means we have to go back to Carter. I'm willing to bet if you put any player with a scoring tough (Something Carter had and Pyatt doesn't so much unfortunately) with the twins they'll flourish.

Lastly, the nail in the coffin imo is the no-trade clause. I can't see Naslund wanting to start over in a new city at this point in his career since he's always hinted at a fairly young retirement, and seems to like Vancouver (or so the canucks PR department leads us to believe. :P )

I could be wrong though, maybe he wants to jump to a contender for a chance at the cup if he feels the canucks are not going to do it for him, although that would also make for slim pickin's for Nonis to choose from.
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Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:08 pm

So Carter scores 33 last year, and Pyatt is on pace for how many this year? Close to, if not more than that? It dosn't matter who plays with the Sedins, Stephen Hawking could pot 20 or more with these guys.

So you trade him for Carter, Pyatt heads to the third line and maybe scores 15 goals if we're lucky and Mercury aligns perfectly with Saturn.
Now we're minus our most dynamic player, and probably subrtacting goals from our total. The only benefit is a reduced salary hit. Well my friend, I would call for a voodoo hex to be placed on Dave Nonis if he made this trade., so that whenever he goes to piddle he feels a burning sensation in his nether regions.

Trading him for cap value? This I can see, but I would much rather get a couple younger players with some upside, not someone who can play with the Sedins. This team needs secondary scoring, if we could trade Naslund (which I would not be sold on), I would want at least 2 second line caliber players for him.

EDIT
If we wanted Carter back that badly, I'm sure CBJ would trade him back to us for a couple Twoonies and some BC bud.
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:47 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Trading him for cap value? This I can see, but I would much rather get a couple younger players with some upside, not someone who can play with the Sedins. This team needs secondary scoring, if we could trade Naslund (which I would not be sold on), I would want at least 2 second line caliber players for him.

.


Ok, I'll agree with you here. I still think that Sedin/Sedin/Carter was more dynamic than Sedin/Sedin/Pyatt (I personally believe that Pyatt has had lots of luck.....and that the Sedin/Sedin/Pyatt line will ultimately be a "good" but not "great" line). Perhaps its because of the differing system or because the Sedin were the 2nd line last year (and in effect, had less top d-men and checkers on them), but it seemed like the Sedins' and Carter generated more scoring chances on a consistent basis.

However - I definitely agree that if we were to trade Naslund, then perhaps "trying to find someone to play with the Sedins'" is far less important than shoring up our 2nd/3rd line depth (or even adding to our blue line).

I guess time will tell as to whether Pyatt can continue to score (my gut feeling, is that he'll tail off considerably). I sincerely hope I'm wrong though.
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