Would you consider trading OHLUND for offensive help?

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Postby Fred » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:30 pm

The fact is if you get rid of one experienced "D" he has to be replaced with another expreienced "D" you can't have a full set of young defensemen and not suffer IMO

So now we have an experienced probably under paid D, why trade him, seems nuts to me
cheers
Fred
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:00 pm

Postby SRsez » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:21 pm

cerios wrote:I listed 13 guys that quite frankly anyone who knows about hockey to any real extent wouldn't argue with.


Look pal, your 14 year old friends don't qualify as anyone who knows anything about hockey.

cerios wrote:including Chara who is arguably the best defencemen


Okay, go ask twenty people over the age of 18 who the best defenseman in the league is. Not a freaking one will pick Chara - not one, unless they happen to be Bruins fans. So "argue" all you want - you're only arguing with yourself - everybody else knows it's like asking who's a better goalie, Luongo or Oprah.

cerios wrote:your really not worth debating with on this subject as you clearly have no real knowledge on the subject.


Yes that's right, and your knowledge & insight is scintillating.

How about you don't spew forth garbage, and instead spend a bit of time reading these pages. Perhaps you might even learn something, because God knows you couldn't be more ignorant.
Real hockey fans refuse to listen to the Idiot(tm)
SRsez
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:13 pm

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:58 pm

SRsez wrote:Okay, go ask twenty people over the age of 18 who the best defenseman in the league is. Not a freaking one will pick Chara - not one, unless they happen to be Bruins fans. So "argue" all you want - you're only arguing with yourself - everybody else knows it's like asking who's a better goalie, Luongo or Oprah.


The guy has been a Norris finalist, when was the last time Ohlund was? Chara was a finalist in 03/04 and voted fourth last season. That, to me, suggests that some people think he is the best defenceman in hockey. And I'm also pretty sure that the people who vote on this stuff are over 18, and know more about hockey than you or I.
User avatar
Island Nucklehead
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Postby SRsez » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:13 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:The guy has been a Norris finalist, when was the last time Ohlund was? Chara was a finalist in 03/04 and voted fourth last season. That, to me, suggests that some people think he is the best defenceman in hockey. And I'm also pretty sure that the people who vote on this stuff are over 18, and know more about hockey than you or I.


And just when was the last time Ohlund played in the weaker Eastern Conference in front of the biased eastern media that goes to sleep before Ohlund plays 90% of his games?

Get serious, If you were asked who the best Dman in the NHL was, 19 times out of 20, you'd say Pronger, Niedermeyer or Lidstrom (all whom, I shouldn't have to note, play in the Western Conference). Chara ain't even close.
Real hockey fans refuse to listen to the Idiot(tm)
SRsez
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:13 pm

Postby cerios » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:43 am

And just when was the last time Ohlund played in the weaker Eastern Conference in front of the biased eastern media that goes to sleep before Ohlund plays 90% of his games?


Suggesting that a guy playing on the Canucks, one of the showcase teams of the last 5 or so years doesn't get seen is completely moronic. Ohlund has been seen, he hasn't toiled in obscurity, hes simply not that good and suggesting that Chara isn't better then Ohlund can only be the result of one of two things 1. MASSIVE homer bias, 2. A complete disconnect with reality, or both. I mean seriously what exactly is Chara not better at then Ohlund?

Has anyone ever once in his career considered Ohlund a norris candidate?

For me, Ohlund is in the category of highly skilled D below the Niedermayer, Pronger, Lidstrom and Zubov group.


This is the essential misevaluation of Ohlund, he is not a skilled guy. He is a good defensive defencemen. Much closer to Mitchell then most care to admit. I don't think describing him as a Regher type defencemen is an insult. Yes hes had some points and some decent goal totals for a d-man over his career, but look at the teams he played with and look at his shooting %, he has had one anomalous season other then which he has never broken the top 30(although he was 2nd that year). Hes a career minus player, and hes simply not a gifted passer. There is simply nothing in his history that suggests he ever was or ever will be a "gifted" defencemen. Hes a hard nosed, defensively reliable guy with a average offensive skillset.

What would help Ohlund more then anything is for people to step back and take the offensive pressure off of him, let him play his defensive game, let him play within his skill set because as it stands his quickly deteriorating defensive skills are going to

Okay, go ask twenty people over the age of 18 who the best defensemen in the league is. Not a freaking one will pick Chara - not one, unless they happen to be Bruins fans. So "argue" all you want - you're only arguing with yourself - everybody else knows it's like asking who's a better goalie, Luongo or Oprah.


First of all, where did anyone say they thought Chara was the best defenseman in the league? Is that your ID and EGO battling it out externally? Having said that Chara is one of the best defenseman in the league(top 10), nobody of any intellectual significance denies that and you would find it nearly impossible to make a reasonable case based upon anything that has actually happened that Ohlund could reasonably be considered in the same league as Chara.
cerios
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:43 am

Postby SRsez » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:46 am

cerios wrote:Suggesting that a guy playing on the Canucks, one of the showcase teams of the last 5 or so years doesn't get seen is completely moronic.


Actually, the definition of "moronic" would be the suggestion that there isn't an eastern media bias.

moron wrote:I don't think describing him as a Regher type defencemen is an insult.


Well that's just it, you don't think much, do you?

can I get any stupider? wrote:where did anyone say they thought Chara was the best defenseman in the league?


How about when you, you complete & utter fool, wrote this:

I guess indeed I can get stupider wrote:including Chara who is arguably the best defencemen


So let's give upon this notion that you actually have the ability to think, much less reason, on just about any subject, much less hockey.
Real hockey fans refuse to listen to the Idiot(tm)
SRsez
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:13 pm

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:19 am

I think SRez is blowing the Eastern media bias a little out of proportion here. It's widely accepted that Anaheim has the two best D-men in the league, and they reside in the West.

All the childish name-calling aside, someone made a good point that at Ohlunds pay, he's a pretty good bargain, and I have to agree. If we're looking at moving salary, the price-performance ratio for Ohlund is much better than say Morrison or Cooke (I'd throw Kesler in there, but we're stuck with his salary so there's no point complaining about it).

Ohlund is not a top 10 guy in the show, and that's probably why he's not paid like one. Chara at 7Mil, Jovo at 6.5? I like Ohlund at his current salary, thank you very much. Come the offseason we're going to need to look quite seriously at our D situation, if we want to keep Salo (who is slightly tougher than Dan Cloutier's knees) we might have to sacrifice Ohlund. With Mitchell in the fold, and BXA comming along nicely, and most likely Bourdon playing a similar style to Ohlund's, we could use the offensive help a little more than the stay-at-home type. As far as this season is concerned, I keep Ohlund, and look to move Cooke for a bag of pucks, then shell out a draft pick for some help.
User avatar
Island Nucklehead
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Postby Fred » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:20 am

The sad thing about Ohlund is for a few season he was paired with Sopel, remember the guy every one loved to hate. But the fact was they were Ohlunds best seasons, Sopel was albout offence and Ohlund filled in for him at the back. There was always the threat that Sopel was going to break out and other teams played with that in mind, never quite committing all their gunner simultaneously and getting caught down ice. It worked well, both put up good number while still attending to the oppositions top lines game in game out. Sopel has gone and the respect for the attack from that backend went with it. Our defence are under pressure, AV has at last had the forwards to play two way hockey which helps immensley, but the opposition are not worried about offence coming from the defence, the extraman. Thats when Crows system broke down and he couldn't replace it a new one, AV did.

Ohlund has maybe not faired well from those days, but is still value for money and few susbstitues are available to replace his size, experience
cheers
Fred
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:00 pm

Postby Cookie La Rue » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:55 am

SRsez wrote:How about when you, you complete & utter fool, wrote this:

I guess indeed I can get stupider wrote:including Chara who is arguably the best defencemen

Please let me interrupt, if i had the choice between Chara and Ohlund, i would choose Ohlund in a heartbeat. :D
"Every dog has its day." - CC Hockey Pool Champion 2004 & 2013
User avatar
Cookie La Rue
MVP
MVP
 
Posts: 1843
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:57 pm
Location: 50° 10' North / 8° 34' East

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:30 pm

Given the current salary cap era, where dollars must be spent frugally, I would have to go with Ohlund over Chara. Has anyone considered what we could do with Naslunds (6M), Cooks' (1.5), and Morrisons' (3.2) salaries? A grand total of close to 11 million. What are some of the other teams' "go to" guys getting paid...(keep in mind I'm not suggesting we COULD obtain these players, just a strict salary comparrison)

Nashville: Kariya (4.5), Arnott (4.5), JP Dumont (2) = 11 Million.
Dallas: Lehtinen (2.75) Morrow (2.2), Ribeiro (1.9), Modano (4.25)= 11.1 Million
San Jose: Marleau (4), Cheechoo (2.5), Bell (2), Bernier (850K)= 9+ Million
Carolina: Staal (4), Cole (4), Brind'Amour (4) = 12 Million
Anaheim: Selanne (3.75), McDonald (3.3), Kunitz (960K), Marchant (2.5)= 10.5 Million
Buffalo: Briere (5), Drury (3.2), Afinogenov (3)= 11+ Million

Seems to me that these teams, all quite successful recently, have thrived by diversifying salary, rather than relying on one star player. I'm talking strictly forwards here, because it can be argued that defenders and especially goalies can be valued differently.

Just goes to show how bad the salary cap screwed us. I think that we have our high priced help in Luongo, and should be looking at ways of ridding salary by picking up several players that will score. Spread it out, being less dynamic, but more successful. Until we can move some of that salary, we're going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
User avatar
Island Nucklehead
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Postby ververgaert » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:52 pm

I have seen Ohlund struggle as of late and think the reason has alot to do with ice time and the situations he is used in. He is on the p.p , peanalty kill and against the other teams top lines. He plays more minutes than the others .

This has been going on for the last few seasons. The guy is horse ! But that horse is getting tired! That is the reason you no longer see the big hits he used to dish out regularly or the offensive play.

If the Canucks had a few more N.H.L. quality defencemen that could stay healthy then Ohlund could play "his" game. If he was able to play "his " game I have no doubt he would be a Norris finalist. Even with the obvious and disgusting eastern bias that exists.

In response to the thread, no don't trade Ohlund ! Get some legitimate help for him on the back end.
Don Cherry for Prime Minister
ververgaert
MVP
MVP
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:18 pm
Location: North Delta

Some Final Thoughts regarding this thread

Postby Farhan Lalji » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:51 pm

Interesting read! Thank you for all of your comments.

A) After thinking over this issue a little more (combined with the feedback from this thread), I now also agree that trading Ohlund would simply be too much of a blow to our defense. As we saw last night, Luongo can't be GO(O)D every night, while Veenyo's defensive system is still susceptible if we ARE in fact, missing key defensemen (and last night, this came in the form of Salo, Mitchell, and even Fitzpatrick).

B) I don't think Ohlund is a top 10 defenseman in this league, but he certainly isn't below 30 either IMHO. I'd say he's a top 20 d-man.

C) Kudos to the guy in this thread (can't remember who) that said that we have to see Mitchell in a different light now (due to his concussion problem). This poster also brought up a great point regarding Bieksa and Krajicek. Yes - both men HAVE improved their play, but it could easily be hampered if they have to take on too much responsibility (i.e. if Ohlund gets traded).

D) As SRsez alluded to, acquiring a solid 2nd line center might be pretty tough anyways. Very few teams have two excellent centers. The ones that do, will probably want to keep on to them (the people I had in mind by the way, were Marleau, Oli Jokinnen, and Brad Richards....I probably shouldn't have admitted that :oops: ).

E) Although patience is a virtue, I also think IMPATIENCE can be a virtue as well. :P Waiting for things to "come together" is great an all, but that doesn't justify us not trying to be a contending team this year. With the Canucks now in possession of arguably the best goalie in the league, it's nonsensical to have a "rebuilding mindset" for the next few years. We need to start trying to win now IMHO.
Farhan Lalji
 

Postby WCE » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:05 pm

cerios wrote:

Has anyone ever once in his career considered Ohlund a norris candidate?


2 years ago NHL.com came up with a lost proposed Norris candidates for the end of the season. There were six of them listed, among them were Lidstrom, Pronger, Niedermayer, Zubov, Chara and OHLUND.

I don't think he is anywhere near a Norris vote right now, but at that time he was deserving of being recognized as a top d-man.

To me the fact remains that at 3.5 million he is as good of a deal as you are going to get for a UFA. Especially on our team where we have guys not performing or scoring in relation to their salary...

Naslund, Cooke, Morrison, and Chouinard all come to mind.
"We Will Rise Again"

- Fan's sign from the final game of the 05/06 season
User avatar
WCE
MVP
MVP
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:57 pm

Postby MarkMM » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:17 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:I think SRez is blowing the Eastern media bias a little out of proportion here. It's widely accepted that Anaheim has the two best D-men in the league, and they reside in the West.

All the childish name-calling aside, someone made a good point that at Ohlunds pay, he's a pretty good bargain, and I have to agree. If we're looking at moving salary, the price-performance ratio for Ohlund is much better than say Morrison or Cooke (I'd throw Kesler in there, but we're stuck with his salary so there's no point complaining about it).

Ohlund is not a top 10 guy in the show, and that's probably why he's not paid like one. Chara at 7Mil, Jovo at 6.5? I like Ohlund at his current salary, thank you very much. Come the offseason we're going to need to look quite seriously at our D situation, if we want to keep Salo (who is slightly tougher than Dan Cloutier's knees) we might have to sacrifice Ohlund. With Mitchell in the fold, and BXA comming along nicely, and most likely Bourdon playing a similar style to Ohlund's, we could use the offensive help a little more than the stay-at-home type. As far as this season is concerned, I keep Ohlund, and look to move Cooke for a bag of pucks, then shell out a draft pick for some help.


Good points, on the other hand, with Krajicek's development and the possible return of Koltsov, possibility of Coloumbe (unlikely) and Edler (more likely, but long-term) sticking, we might actually be strong on the offense over the next couple seasons so maybe should hold on to Ohlund and his defensiveness/physicality.
Mark
MarkMM
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:28 pm
Location: Delta, BC

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:46 pm

Coloumbe really impressed me with his passing and play on the PP.

I still don't think he's big enough to play defence in the league, new rules or not. He dosn't have the reach or the weight to battle down low. Forwards can pull it off because they play more on the possession side of things, where as defencemen are the ones trying to remove the puck from the forwards. Size still matters on the back end. However, could we put him with a guy like Willie? Perhaps, but I don't think I'd vote for it.

Salo or Ohlund? You would have to go Ohlund, but I just don't see Krajicek developing the same kind of howitzer that Salo has. He's much more mobile, more of a true PP quarterback, and I can see him and Salo having a great set up-trigger man relationship down the line. If we can find a way to keep Salo and Ohlund, we're doing alright. Personally I would much rather give Cookes 1.5 to keep Salo around.
User avatar
Island Nucklehead
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Previous

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BladesofSteel, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Mr.Miyagi and 2 guests