Would you consider trading OHLUND for offensive help?

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Postby cerios » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:48 pm

Okay, put down the pipe, son. You simply don't trade one of the top 10 d men in the league, unless his wife hates Edmonton or something.


Your calling Ohlund a top 10 D man and telling him to put down the pipe?

I wouldn't. Scoring forwards are easier to come by than quality defensemen, and a team can never have too many of those.

The Canucks already have scoring forwards; they just need to loosen the grips on their sticks a little bit. Wink


No actually they really don't, scoring forwards are worth more in todays NHL the defensive defenseman. 5 years ago? sure your assessment is correct but look at all the top teams in the league and tell me if there strength is there defence or their offence.

this thread is garbage


and the delusion concerning Ohlunds value continues.

never say never, but if ohlund were to be traded it better be one hell of a package coming back. i'd rather hang on for awhile and trade salo for some picks and prospects since we can't afford to put more money into our D.


Ohlund is not worth his current contract. He is not a 4 million dollar defenseman. Its doubtful he would make any serious list of top 30 defenseman in this league. Hes horrific on offence and severely overrated on defence. He can't skate, he can't make offensive decisions, he takes a ton of stupid penalties. Hes a very good #2 defenseman. What is it with this city and falling in love with certain players? Clouiter was defended up the yang for years despite his insanely obvious deficiencies, and there is a long line of players just like them.

How about we do this, lets see just how deep the delusion goes. Who on this list is not better then Ohlund:

Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake, Redden, Zubov, Chara, Stewert, Pitkanen, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Meszaros, Jovanoski. Now thats 13 of the better known defenseman in this league that are quite frankly head and shoulders above Ohlund but I am curious as to who exactly would rate Ohlund ahead of any of these guys.

Only an insane person wouldn't trade Ohlund for a good young centerman right now.
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Postby Farhan Lalji » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:49 pm

levelheaded wrote: Give it time, it may take a season or two, but the scoring will come.


The way I see it, we have Luongo (arguably the BEST goalie in the league) for 4 years. Perhaps you and other fans are more patient than I am, but I want to see the Canucks win NOW.

Our assets today, may not be assets tommorow by the time our "developing" players (i.e. Kesler, Burrows, etc.) come around.

Case in point - 3 years ago, we patiently waited for the Sedins' to develop while the WCE line carried us. By the time the Sedins' became stars, the WCE line had lost its magic. End result - we were still a one-line team.

There's nothing wrong with being patient....and waiting for certain players to develop. In fact, I encourage that (especially as it relates to someone like Luc Bourdon for instance). However - I just LOATHE the idea of the Canucks "waiting for things to develop" while we have Luongo here. Try and win the cup NOW.
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Postby SRsez » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:45 pm

cerios wrote:Who on this list is not better then Ohlund:

Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake, Redden, Zubov, Chara, Stewert, Pitkanen, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Meszaros, Jovanoski.


Hmm, let's just see, shall we? Blake, Redden, Zubov, arguably Chara, Stewert (sic) Pitkanen, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Meszaros, arguably Jovonovski, and while we're at it, how about Regehr & McCabe?

cerios wrote:thats 13 of the better known defenseman in this league that are quite frankly head and shoulders above Ohlund but I am curious as to who exactly would rate Ohlund ahead of any of these guys.


Everyone not on the pipe, like you obviously are this evening. That's 3 guys, not 13.

You want better than Ohlund? It's a very short list. And what I find absolutely hilarious is that you would pick those 13, and the two I added plus Scott Hannan don't even spring to mind? Wow, you're extremely knowledgable on this subject, aren't you? :roll:
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Postby SRsez » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:56 pm

Farhan Lalji wrote:Given the fact that we have Luongo, combined with Veenyo's current defensive system, combined with the EMERGENCE of Bieksa, Krajicek, and Salo. Would LOSING Ohlund really hurt us as much defensively as we think?


Perhaps not, but ask yourself, who could we get for him that would be that great offensively?

Farhan Lalji wrote:If the Canucks acquired a great center for Ohlund, and this "great center" ignited our 2nd line scoring (either by scoring himself, or by bringing out the best in Naslund, Bulis, etc.). Wouldn't this OUTWEIGH the loss of Ohlund on defense?


Perhaps, but only if you can tell us who this offensive superpower might be. I hear Anson Carter may soon be available. ;)

Farhan Lalji wrote:Wouldn't this make the Canucks a more well balanced team?


It might. Would it absolutely make it a more balanced team? No. Giving up a rock steady, veteran D for the likes of the aforementioned Anson Carter (maybe you'd prefer Peter Schaeffer?)and the 5/6 D we'd have to get back in return (otherwise you're going to give Rory Fitzpatrick 20+ mins/night?) is about all you're going to be able to swing. That to me doesn't speak of anything good, much less balance.


Farhan Lalji wrote:In order get good players in return, you have to give up good players in return.


Agreed. But with the salary cap in place, trades are extremely difficult to pull off today.
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Postby Canuck-One » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:07 am

You are embarassing yourself, please stop. This thread isn't worth continuing.
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Postby rockalt » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:18 am

HappyCanuck wrote:You are embarassing yourself, please stop. This thread isn't worth continuing.


I'm not really sure who you are referring to. If anything, it seems opinion is split on this issue. I don't think it's ridiculous to propose Ohlund providing the return was worth it but it's certainly not a trade I would do.

Personally I don't understand what the love affair is with Willy Mitchell. I think he's a solid defensemen but benefitted greatly from playing on a defense-first Minnesota team. 3 mill was a little steep for him.

Ohlund is the number 1 defensemen (though I'd argue Salo's pretty close when healthy) on the Canucks. I don't think it's wise to be trading away your "rock" on defense.

Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake, Redden, Zubov, Chara, Stewert, Pitkanen, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Meszaros, Jovanoski. Now thats 13 of the better known defenseman in this league that are quite frankly head and shoulders above Ohlund but I am curious as to who exactly would rate Ohlund ahead of any of these guys.


I agree with SRSez on this one. It's simply ridiculous to say that these guys are "head and shoulders" above Ohlund. Those are some great defensemen that you listed but I'd say many of them are at a comparable level with Ohlund with the exception of a few.

Lidstrom, Niedermayer, & Pronger are simply elite. Blake used to be there but I haven't seen him play in a while so I don't know if he's still as dominant given his age.

Other than that I would say Chara's better than Ohlund. Everyone else on that list is debatable. Look at Jovo. He's got great abilities but IMO was outplayed by Ohlund during his tenure and simply not as much of a "rock" on D.
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Postby Kowch » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:44 am

After having seen Chara play down here a couple of weeks ago and having watched Boumeester in, I dunno, about 40+ games, I'd pick Ohlund over either of them in about a second.

And don't get me wrong... Boumeester has some upside to him, but if I was building a defensive core today and I had to choose between the two of them, Ohlund gets my pick
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Postby tantalum » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:51 am

If a deal ultimately makes the team better you do it. It would be sad to see some players go but nothing says I can't cheer for them on another team.

If a deal make the team better you do it.
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Postby cerios » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:52 am

Hmm, let's just see, shall we? Blake, Redden, Zubov, arguably Chara, Stewert (sic) Pitkanen, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Meszaros, arguably Jovonovski, and while we're at it, how about Regehr & McCabe?


I listed 13 guys that quite frankly anyone who knows about hockey to any real extent wouldn't argue with. The fact that you picked 3 of them as being better and the rest as not, including Chara who is arguably the best defencemen in the league shows that your really not worth debating with on this subject as you clearly have no real knowledge on the subject.
Other than that I would say Chara's better than Ohlund. Everyone else on that list is debatable. Look at Jovo. He's got great abilities but IMO was outplayed by Ohlund during his tenure and simply not as much of a "rock" on D.


Its really very simple, Jovo and Ohlund go on the free agent market today and who gets what? There isn't a GM in this league that is going to offer more to Ohlund then Jovo and their is a reason for that. And I have seen Chara play enough to know that hes in a different league then Ohlund, Offensively, Deffensively, and Physically.

This is no different then people in Calgary calling Iginla a superstar, or people in detroit calling Datsyuk and Hetterberg super-stars, or people in Edmonton talking about Hemskey. For some reason, for some players massive homer bias sets in, Ohlund is that for Vancouver. A player which hockey fans in other cities simply don't talk about, why? Because 9/10 hes a non-factor and when he is a factor its as often for a mistake as a good play.

Ask yourself this, if Ohlund is so valuable what exactly could we get in return for him? And if your forced to answer a good second line center then you might want to ask yourself if everyone outside of Vancouver is crazy or its just us.
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Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:58 am

Guys you might be feeling a bit of hometown advantage. I agree completely with that list, Ohlund is not an elite-defenceman in this league. Gotta go with Cerios on this one. I wouldn't trade any of the guys he mentioned, except Stuart (I'm assuming you mean the Brad variety, involved in the Thornton deal? the headcase?), for Ohlund. He's not as gifted offensively as say a Gonchar or Niedermayer, and he's not even the best shut down guy on our team, I would say Mitchell is. And then you have guys like Chara, Blake and Pronger who can do it both ways.

Someone suggested Ohlund isn't top 30, that's a load of crap. Ohlund is solid, but if the definition of "Premier" is say, top 10, you would be hard pressed to find many experts or GM's place Ohlund on that list. Solid, top pairing guy? Absolutely. Top 10 in the whole show, must be some good dope.
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Postby WCE » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:03 pm

Is Ohlund a top 5 guy in the league? No.

But to say that guys like Stuart, Meszaros, Bouwmeester and Blake (at his age) are head and shoulders above his is downright unreal to me.

For me, Ohlund is in the category of highly skilled D below the Niedermayer, Pronger, Lidstrom and Zubov group.
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Postby Fred » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:45 pm

Ohlund is a respected defenseman in the NHL, most GM would give an arm and a leg for him at his salary. Most teams not only have a roster mix not only of psoitons but age group to, ie they have so many in the 30+ grouping, so many in the 26 and older and so many in the 20 and older grouping. This is essential to ensure a continuity of the team, not only to the fans but for the youngster to learn what being a Canucks means.

Olund fill that spot to a team in addition to playing a high level of defense, I have to believe the GM would be crazy to move Ohlund
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Postby WCE » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:51 pm

Fred wrote:Ohlund is a respected defenseman in the NHL, most GM would give an arm and a leg for him at his salary. Most teams not only have a roster mix not only of psoitons but age group to, ie they have so many in the 30+ grouping, so many in the 26 and older and so many in the 20 and older grouping. This is essential to ensure a continuity of the team, not only to the fans but for the youngster to learn what being a Canucks means.

Olund fill that spot to a team in addition to playing a high level of defense, I have to believe the GM would be crazy to move Ohlund


I agree.

Ohlund at 3.5 million is a god damn steal. To replace him, getting a guy like Kubina on the open market costs 5 million plus.
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Postby Kowch » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:54 pm

cerios wrote:
Hmm, let's just see, shall we? Blake, Redden, Zubov, arguably Chara, Stewert (sic) Pitkanen, Phaneuf, Bouwmeester, Meszaros, arguably Jovonovski, and while we're at it, how about Regehr & McCabe?


I listed 13 guys that quite frankly anyone who knows about hockey to any real extent wouldn't argue with. The fact that you picked 3 of them as being better and the rest as not, including Chara who is arguably the best defencemen in the league shows that your really not worth debating with on this subject as you clearly have no real knowledge on the subject.


The fact that you would call Boumeester head and shoulders above Ohlund shows that you are clearly the one that has no real knowledge on the subject.

Stop believing the hype and start watching the games.

Is Ohlund top 5 or top 10? No. Top 15 or top 20? Absoultely, although it depends on what kind of defenseman you're really looking for.
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Postby sic puppy » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:19 pm

Have been reading this thread with some interest.

At first, like some I didn't think it was worth a reply, but there have been some convincing arguments both ways.

The key to any trade of Ohlund, Nonis would have to believe that such a trade would in fact better the team, as tant suggests.

Whether we as fans agree with what makes the team better is moot.

Looking back at Ohlund's career to the end of last season, he has played an average of 69 games for 8 seasons. (one season he played in only 42 after suffering a near career ending pre-season eye injury) Taking that into consideration he is a dependable D man given his role on the team.

He is averaging over 25 minutes per game. Since the 01/02 season he has been in the top 4 in shifts per game in the League. At 6'2' , 220 pounds and 30 years old he fits the profile of a relatively young affordable NHL D man.

His best years offensively have not been spectacular. (14 G, 27 A, 36 pts, being his career highs to date) Salary wise he has cracked the top 20 once for defensemen (17th in 05/06).

So...what do all these numbers express?

IMO they express how valuable Ohlund is to this team. If Nonis were to shop him, I'm sure he would get offers, but, would they make the team better?

While I would agree that BXA and Krajicek have been a pleasant surprise thus far, taking Ohlund out of that mix will put pressure on them that may cause concern at this stage of their development.

Salo IMO can not take on extra minutes AND still be effective on the PP. Mitchell must now be looked at in a different light because of his concussion history.

While I will agree that Ohlund is not a Pronger, Blake or Niedermayer, he fills a very valuable role on this team. To replace him AND add the offensive skill suggested by this thread would not, ,IMO, result in an upgrade for the team at this point of the season.
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