A flaw in the Nonis plan ?

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A flaw in the Nonis plan ?

Postby Fred » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:05 pm

Maybe what the injury to Salo & Mitchell has exposed is the lack of depth down in Manitoba. I can expect a team in the NHL to carry only 6-7 D and most seems to have three front line D. But the problem seems to be is a lck of depth on the farm. It has to be assumed that the big team will have times when injury strikes.

Should DN have signed better replacements for the Moose, I 'm not that keen on Tremblay You don't call up the farm for offensive replacement, you call up defense first types IMO
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Postby MarkMM » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:25 pm

I think the big miscalculation came down on Bourdon, I think management has been gambling a bit that he can either turn it around, or we're just going to get him as much play as it is. Since he's not ready, we were effectively a man down to begin with, and we weren't able to replace him with an NHL-calibre guy until his salary is off the books.

I think Tremblay is there to provide some offensive depth, Fitzpatrick was supposed to provide the defensive depth, but he was already in the line-up to shore up the back-end when Bourdon couldn't handle it, so in a sense, we'd already used up our defense-first guy.
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Postby magnum44 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:26 pm

I think we all knew before the season , including Nonis, that the farm was not going to produce much of a harvest this year. We have had one of the weaker farm systems in the NHL for the past few years and bringing up burrows, bieksa and green pretty much depleted what little we had. The only real mistake Nonis made imo was signing Kesler for the 1.9. It would have been a shame to let him go at the time, but we pretty much handcuffed ourselves with that signing and going inot the season with big ? on our defense I didn't think that was a smart thing to do. You know you are going to have injuries (and after last season you'd think you would be a little more conscious of that) and with 3 virtual rookies I would have preffered DN let Kesler go in order to leave room for contingencies.
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Postby Bartman » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:29 pm

Are we lacking depth at D? Yes
Are we going to pay for it? Yes
Did Nonis make a major error? Uh...maybe?

Clearly one mistake, as pointed out by MarkMM was relying on Bourdon. But would we really be having this discussion if it was Fitzpatrick and Bieksa that were injured? Probably not.

We are lacking depth at D but it just looks so much worse right now because we've got 2 of our top 3 guys out. Not many teams in the NHL have the kind of depth to lose these kind of guys and come out fine. Would the Ducks look the same without Neidermier and Pronger? Would the Flames without Regier and Phenuef? Am I making any sense after my 7th beer? Am I just rambling now?
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Postby Arbour » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:36 am

So what was the knock on Sean Brown? He was cheap, available for the league minimum and probably would have signed for one year, and would have fit nicely in the fifth or sixth spot. While he wasn't the most mobile of d-men he certainly didn't seem to be a liability for the short time he was here, in that he didn't take stupid penalties or get caught out of position.
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Postby jchockey » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:15 am

Kesler's contract plays a role here too, and I don't blame DN for matching it. Kesler is one of our first rounders to actually become a regular player (Ohlund, Sedins aside). By signing Kesler to almost double what DN was expected to sign him for, you've pretty much lost either two farmhands or one regular player in the process. 900k can fetch you a fairly decent player.

This lack of depth can be attributed to the lack of good drafting the past ten years. DN thought he had enough depth on the blue line by signing Fitzpatrick and Tremblay, but apparently it wasn't enough. I don't think the majority of this flaw should be put on DN's shoulders.
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Postby sports&stuff---rick » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:52 am

quit babying bourdon and acting like hes a liability. Let him play. Hes way better than most of our defenceman. He made a couple mistakes early in the season because of the way they treated him. In the limited ice time in the last few games you can see a big improvement. Let him play 25 mins tonight and i bet hes one of the stars!!
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Postby the Cunning Linguist » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:04 am

sports&stuff---rick wrote:quit babying bourdon and acting like hes a liability. Let him play. Hes way better than most of our defenceman. He made a couple mistakes early in the season because of the way they treated him.


Or put another way - if Fitzpatrick is going to play 18 minutes and contribute to 3+ goals against (4 by my count against Minny), why not cut his time down to no more than ten minutes and give that time to Bourdon and Edler? Sure, they won't be necessarily better defensively but at least you're giving them quality NHL time and experience. :mad:

DN's hands are tied (limited cap room) and anyone who might be available is no better than Fitzpatrick. Sean Brown? Yeah, I'd be willing to try him out but if he's signed a contract in Europe and has played, then he won't be available unless his team agrees to release him... :mad:
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Postby Cookie La Rue » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:28 am

sports&stuff---rick wrote:Let him play 25 mins tonight and i bet hes one of the stars!!

A risk for sure and wishful thinking on your part, but i tend to think the same way. What choices are left with Mitchell/Salo out ???
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Postby Canuck-One » Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:22 pm

I've said it before, this is a rebuilding year and as such we should be looking hard at guys like Bourdon and Edler. Put them in and leave them in 10 to 12 minutes a game, they're going to make mistakes but that's how people learn. Let Bowness explain the mistakes when they come off the ice and then put them back out there. I'm not 100% sold on the idea that our picks since Delorme took over have been poor, I'm starting to believe we don't know how to develope them.
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Postby Fred » Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:52 pm

HappyCanuck wrote:I've said it before, this is a rebuilding year and as such we should be looking hard at guys like Bourdon and Edler. Put them in and leave them in 10 to 12 minutes a game, they're going to make mistakes but that's how people learn. Let Bowness explain the mistakes when they come off the ice and then put them back out there. I'm not 100% sold on the idea that our picks since Delorme took over have been poor, I'm starting to believe we don't know how to develope them.


Not quite my view of the canucks, I think had we signed other plyers rather than Chouinard, Satala and maybe dumped Cooke we would not be in the defensive mess we are and in all honestly likely to experience again before the season is out ie a shortage of quality defensive replacements, both here and in the Peg. I don't like the idea of having rebuilding years or if that's their intention be up front and tell the folks who fork out thousands to buy tickets.

Ron Delorme's record is far better than the Mike Penny era, including some low picks.
Try these on for size, last three years and none of them top picks,

Grabner
Bourdon
Schneider
Kiril Koltsov

http://www.canucks.com/subpage.asp?sectionID=685

Throw in Mason Raymond, Edler, Ellis Plante, Jannik Hansen, Rahimi and Shirokov as late round picks and i have to believe that Delorme has more than earned his pay cheque
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Postby Harold » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:49 pm

sports&stuff---rick wrote:quit babying bourdon and acting like hes a liability. Let him play. Hes way better than most of our defenceman. He made a couple mistakes early in the season because of the way they treated him. In the limited ice time in the last few games you can see a big improvement. Let him play 25 mins tonight and i bet hes one of the stars!!


A couple mistakes early in the season? Other than the last two games, Bourdon looked like a junior-calibre defenceman playing against NHL-calibre forwards, everytime he was on the ice. Two of the goals in the San Jose game were a direct result of Bourdon's play. He should be in the QMJHL playing 30 minutes a night and excelling agaisnt players more of his calibre at this stage of his development, not losing his confidence getting constantly burned up in the NHL.
The last two games he has looked average, but I think that is only because there was no where else to go but up. Let him play 25 mins a night? That would be folly. Why would you ever give him as many minutes as Ohlund, and more minutes than Krajicek and Bieksa when all three have been solid all season, while Bourdon has been a huge disappointment?
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Postby Harold » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:51 pm

Fred wrote:
HappyCanuck wrote:I've said it before, this is a rebuilding year and as such we should be looking hard at guys like Bourdon and Edler. Put them in and leave them in 10 to 12 minutes a game, they're going to make mistakes but that's how people learn. Let Bowness explain the mistakes when they come off the ice and then put them back out there. I'm not 100% sold on the idea that our picks since Delorme took over have been poor, I'm starting to believe we don't know how to develope them.


Not quite my view of the canucks, I think had we signed other plyers rather than Chouinard, Satala and maybe dumped Cooke we would not be in the defensive mess we are and in all honestly likely to experience again before the season is out ie a shortage of quality defensive replacements, both here and in the Peg. I don't like the idea of having rebuilding years or if that's their intention be up front and tell the folks who fork out thousands to buy tickets.

Ron Delorme's record is far better than the Mike Penny era, including some low picks.
Try these on for size, last three years and none of them top picks,

Grabner
Bourdon
Schneider
Kiril Koltsov

http://www.canucks.com/subpage.asp?sectionID=685

Throw in Mason Raymond, Edler, Ellis Plante, Jannik Hansen, Rahimi and Shirokov as late round picks and i have to believe that Delorme has more than earned his pay cheque


I agree the last couple drafts have been good (though I would have taken Kopitar over Bourdon of course).

And I don't think you sign one of the best goalies in the world to play for $7M a year when you are rebuilding. If this team can find some scoring depth, I think they would be scary in the playoffs.
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Postby Sid Dithers » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:33 pm

Fred wrote:
Ron Delorme's record is far better than the Mike Penny era, including some low picks.
Try these on for size, last three years and none of them top picks,

Grabner
Bourdon
Schneider
Kiril Koltsov

http://www.canucks.com/subpage.asp?sectionID=685

Throw in Mason Raymond, Edler, Ellis Plante, Jannik Hansen, Rahimi and Shirokov as late round picks and i have to believe that Delorme has more than earned his pay cheque

I don't understand this logic at all. I see names. Names with potential. All other 29 teams in the league have names with potential, too. These guys may work out and maybe they won't. But to hail the drafting of these guys as some kind of success at this point is laughable. Only time will tell. Who's to say Grabner won't be a complete flop? Or Schneider? Until they start producing at the NHL level, they are just names.
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Postby Fred » Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:00 pm

Yeah Your right mostly potetial I should have added Kesler and Umberger, but the history for judging a scout takes a long time to develop, by then if you haven't appreciated what he's done, he's in another teams front office. To a degree thats what happened to Bob Murray, a top rated Pro scout who was foisted away to Anaheim by BB. That was a big loss, of course BM brought Kunitz, Shannon and Beauomin, all heralded players to the Ducks

You watched Edler last night, many have swooned over Bourdon and DN told me himslef that Koltsov is some thing special. Schnieder is rated as likely the top goalie in the NCAA and chosen to play for the USA in the WJC.
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