The end of Enforcers?

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The end of Enforcers?

Postby UK Canuck » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:30 am

:twisted: i was watching hockey night in canada and don cherry seems to think that they should still have a big part in the game and fighting should still be paramount - what do you guys think?


personally the fighting is one of the things that originally attracted me to the game and i think as teemu selanne said in his interview that cherry used as an example that it can rev a team up and get them going and i think it makes it great entertainment. if fighting goes ten who knows what next checking maybe?
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Postby Fred » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:46 am

It's more important aspect, fighting, in the Elite League than ever was in the NHL. Fans in Canada still appreciate the skill factor and I suppose it's because a large percenatge have played and realize the terrific skill required
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Re: The end of Enforcers?

Postby Harold » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:28 am

UK Canuck wrote::twisted: i was watching hockey night in canada and don cherry seems to think that they should still have a big part in the game and fighting should still be paramount - what do you guys think?


personally the fighting is one of the things that originally attracted me to the game and i think as teemu selanne said in his interview that cherry used as an example that it can rev a team up and get them going and i think it makes it great entertainment. if fighting goes ten who knows what next checking maybe?


Checking is allowed in hockey, fighing is not (as signified by that fact that you aren't penalized when you check your opponent, yet you are when you fight).
I haven't seen that many fights lately, and I don't really miss it. Hockey is about skating, scoring, skill, hits (legal ones!), etc. If you want to watch fighting go see a boxing match.
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Postby ververgaert » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:53 am

I really enjoy the fighting! I would like to see more of it . I like it when two heavywieghts drop the gloves right off the draw and go. Of course I grew up watching in the 70's when it was alot more common and not frowned on as much. What i like even more however is when a player sticks up for a teamate and goes after the opposition player .
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Postby Fred » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:09 am

ververgaert wrote:I really enjoy the fighting! I would like to see more of it . I like it when two heavywieghts drop the gloves right off the draw and go. Of course I grew up watching in the 70's when it was alot more common and not frowned on as much. What i like even more however is when a player sticks up for a teamate and goes after the opposition player .


Yeah but I think where it fell of the tracks is when they started bringing players to just to fight. Like Peter Worrell who lets face it can barely stand on his skates. It became a farce. Like you I used to like to Magnuson take og Schulz etc or Korab etc etc but they could all play the game
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Postby Lancer » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:46 am

Here's a question: Would Phaneuf have been nearly so "brave" if there was no instigator rule and he knew he would have the puss pounded out of him the next shift for flinging a puck an an un-helmeted goalie?

Fighting used to keep players honest. In this aspect I agree with Grapes. Which would we rather see - someone lose a couple teeth in a fight or someone losing games due to a concussion brought on by a dirty hit? Before people say that it's the refs job to police the play on the ice, how is it that there are more dirty hits now than there were before the instigator rule? How many cheap shots did Gretzky take when Semenko was around?

Personally, I can't stand two designated goons dance around and make a spectacle of themselves in a premeditated 'ya wanna go?' bout. I would rather see two cruiser weights play hard on eachother until the gloves almost spontaneously fly and the fists start going. The difference is one is more spectacle than fight while the other is a genuine, 'I've had it with you' kind of fight. If fighting had more to do with genuine anger or reaction to hard or dirty play, and less to do with 'it's my job. Wanna go?' I think more people wouldn't mind.

That said, the days of the designated goon are numbered unless they can be hockey players too. The new enforcer is the Brad May (in his youth)/Darren McCarty/Sergio Momesso type of player who can do more than fight and can skate with the rest of the team. As for the Worrells and Stojanovs of this world, I think there's a travelling goon show roaming somewhere in Quebec...
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Postby Victoriafan » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:54 pm

Personally, I can't stand two designated goons dance around and make a spectacle of themselves in a premeditated 'ya wanna go?' bout. I would rather see two cruiser weights play hard on eachother until the gloves almost spontaneously fly and the fists start going. The difference is one is more spectacle than fight while the other is a genuine, 'I've had it with you' kind of fight. If fighting had more to do with genuine anger or reaction to hard or dirty play, and less to do with 'it's my job. Wanna go?' I think more people wouldn't mind.


Exactly what I would have said. Like the other night against St. Louis when Ohlund took that late hit on the icing. I can't remember who hit him, but boy was he lucky it took MattyO a couple seconds to get up and the rest of the Canucks a couple of seconds to get over there, or he would have been on the business end of a throw down. And I would have been 100% ok with that fight. He deserved to get his ass pummelled. But past that I think it is forced.
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Postby MarkMM » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:42 pm

I'm not a fan of the goon-on-goon fights just for the sake of revving a team up or sending a message, where it's a pre-arranged dance, they drop the gloves, throw some, and after a token amount of time, they let the refs come in and high-five each other, that's just sad...what's depressing is when a roster spot is reserved for these guys who can't do anything but that.

I do like it though when a teammate sticks up for another in the heat of the moment, the anger is real, the fight is real, and the players have real skill. Glad to Odjick's and Brashear's of the world are gone, I like it when a superstar like Jovo would drop them, or when a rookie like Kesler would go toe-to-toe with a superstar like Kesler (good on both of the).
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Postby Cornuck » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:27 pm

Hopefully the role of the enforcer is gone - and will his spot taken by a quality player. Fighting still has a place in hockey, and make hockey unique in that sense.

As stated above, the goon vs goon spectacles have almost gone from the game - and that's good IMO. But to see two guys pissed off at each other go at it? That's fun.
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Postby ververgaert » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:30 pm

Gino had 16 goals one season including 7 game winners. He would also go after anyone who did a teamate wrong not just the other teams enforcer.

Look here's the deal, if your teams tough guy can handle the other teams tough guy all the players on your team play a little bigger knowing that if the beaten tough guy tries to do anything about it he will be beaten again. Get it?

Now if you don't have a tough guy,like say the Canucks, you get what some fans consider your better players knocked the fuck out like Mitchell, Keseler, Ohlund run, Naslund run, and no one thyere to do shit about it! Duh! You need a fuckin enforcer people or the shit that went on in Nashville will happen all season! Everyone that wants touch dink hockey should support womens hockey, high skill and no fighting.
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Postby Fred » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:27 pm

He would also go after anyone who did a teamate wrong not just the other teams enforcer.


Unfortunitly that no longer what happens, theirs a staged fight between two beheamoths who beat the crap out of each other. What should happen is the instigator rule is thrown out and then who ever hit Mitchel Nas etc, often a small guy any one with theballs to do it grabs the guy and beats the tar out of him. That no one minds. Frankly I couldn't stand Worrell or Parker lumbering on to the ice to Stage a fight
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Postby Lancer » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:00 pm

ververgaert wrote:Look here's the deal, if your teams tough guy can handle the other teams tough guy all the players on your team play a little bigger knowing that if the beaten tough guy tries to do anything about it he will be beaten again. Get it?


Thing is with the instigator rule he couldn't fight anyone who took liberties with his teammates anyways because he would get the 2+5+game for it even if he won a pathetic post-faceoff 'dance and tussle' with the other team's goon. Even so, if you have your one designated goon - even if he is a good fighter - he can't be one the ice all the time. Unless you want to field a lineup of goons (oh wait, Clark's no longer a GM in the league...) you have to have team toughness, which IMO is more important.

Now if you don't have a tough guy,like say the Canucks, you get what some fans consider your better players knocked the fuck out like Mitchell, Keseler, Ohlund run, Naslund run, and no one thyere to do shit about it! Duh! You need a fuckin enforcer people or the shit that went on in Nashville will happen all season! Everyone that wants touch dink hockey should support womens hockey, high skill and no fighting.


No doubt you need someone who can handle the enforcer's role credibly, and the Canucks could desperately use one this season. but the guy can't just be a knuckle-dragger who can barely skate. You need someone who can fill more than an enforcer's role. Brad May did not a bad job when he was here, but he was on his last couple useful seasons. He's a jackass on the ice, but Matt Barnaby would be more useful at this juncture than Matt Cooke. At least Barnaby will fight on top of getting under peoples' skins.
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Postby Tukaram » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:34 pm

As mentioned already, pre-ordained fights between "enforcers" are stupid.

If a fight breaks out in the heat of battle, that's different.

There's nothing wrong with having a player or two who knows how to fight on your roster. But they had better be able to do more than just that.

Hopefully we're seeing the end of the "Broad Street Bully" who sits on the bench the whole game, except when it comes time to fight the other team's "enforcer."
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Postby Ronning's Ghost » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:28 pm

Hockey is about skating, scoring, skill, hits (legal ones!), etc. If you want to watch fighting go see a boxing match.


I agree, and yet for all the people in Vancouver that claim to enjoy watching the fighting, you can put on a pretty good boxing card in this town and not outdraw the local midgets game. And wrestling and judo are pretty much limited to parents and girlfriends for spectators.

Everyone that wants touch dink hockey should support womens hockey, high skill and no fighting.

Unfortunately the women, while in general highly skilled, also can't shoot.

Before people say that it's the refs job to police the play on the ice, how is it that there are more dirty hits now than there were before the instigator rule?


I think the answer to that one is pretty obvious : the refs aren't doing that job. I also think that, if you take a step back from ingrained hockey culture for a second, it makes more sense in an organised, competitive, professional sport to have the league officials enforce the rules, rather than have the players resort to extra-legal methods to do it themselves. Would it not seem odd to you if, in response to a low blow, one boxer's corner threw a dart at the other boxer ? That's just not how other games are played. I guess the NHL still hasn't made up its mind whether it wants to completely clean up its act and have the officials enforce the rules, or whether there is more money to be made with an element of gladiatorial spectacle. I think they are trying to have it both ways.
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Postby UK Canuck » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:54 pm

aggh some different views here- i can see the point made a bout a boxing match- and people like worrel will never be a big part of the new NHL but my beef is that when to guys wana go just let em take out their frustration- they soon get tired and bored from fighting - its better to let them fight than one of em making a 'dirty hit' on the other guy on their next shift due to frustration.
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