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Postby Jyrki21 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:40 pm

Even if there wasn't a taboo on trading Chouinard, for the very reasons we'd be seeking to get rid of him, there aren't going to be any takers.
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Postby Madcombinepilot » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:35 pm

Too be honest, Matt Cooke is under the gun a lot more than Chouinard, IMO.

Cooke needs to chip in close to the 20 goal mark and have a consistent positive effect on the team to justify his current salary (@ $400K more than Chouinard).


I think I might disagree here. Listening to Cooke's last two games (Didn't see the games, just radio, so I am withholding my final opinion), he was skating, hitting, and creating space. Especially the last game. Burows and Kesler had a lot of room and chances thanks to Cooke. If he keeps that up, He is out from the gun, because he has a grit that Chouinard simply hasn't shown yet(at least, I havn't heard it yet). That said, I agree that Chounard has 10-15 games to get his crap together and prove he is worth the extra money.

Between the two guys, someone is being overpaid by 500K. What I mean is that if we reduced thier of thier salaries by 500K, nobody would be complaining about them.

So the way I am looking at it is who is more worth that extra 500K?

Right now, imo, his name is Matt Cooke.

Which means, Chouniard is the guy skating around with the axe over his head....
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Postby tantalum » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:36 am

MarkMM wrote: And as a salary dump move, I wouldn't really be looking for anything back, Santala or Rypien/Reid would do just fine on the fourth line, a warm body would eat up cap space, so a pick or prospect would be fine by me, we're looking to add depth anyway to the prospect system.


but do you really know that? There is a reason Chouinard got the deal he did and a deal other teams would have offered. There is a reason Chouinard has 278 games of regular season NHL experience while Reid has 10 and Santala has 33. The odds are and histroy suggests that Chouinard is the better player.

NOw if the first three lines are clicking and forcing AVs hand to sit the fourth line a bit more maybe you look at moving him and going for a cheaper option. But if the canucks need a player in that role that can play 12 important minutes a night you have to give the edge to Chouinard at this point, despite the bad camp.
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Postby rikster » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am

There is a reason Chouinard has 278 games of regular season NHL experience while Reid has 10 and Santala has 33. The odds are and histroy suggests that Chouinard is the better player.


I'm assuming Chouinard was not brought in to address the teams scoring concerns which would make the reference to players like Reid meaningless...

Reid needed to beat out players like Burrows and Cooke and Kesler, high energy guys with the ability to chip in offensively...

I think he was signed to help address the teams inability to win a face off and to add some size down the middle...His competiton is the likes of Santala and Linden...

Reid and Rypian's good camps means that if the Canucks decide to pull the trigger on a deal involving Cooke, they can do so with some confidence that they have players in the system who can take over his role on the team....

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Postby tantalum » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:21 am

rikster wrote:I'm assuming Chouinard was not brought in to address the teams scoring concerns which would make the reference to players like Reid meaningless...

Reid needed to beat out players like Burrows and Cooke and Kesler, high energy guys with the ability to chip in offensively...

I think he was signed to help address the teams inability to win a face off and to add some size down the middle...His competiton is the likes of Santala and Linden...

Reid and Rypian's good camps means that if the Canucks decide to pull the trigger on a deal involving Cooke, they can do so with some confidence that they have players in the system who can take over his role on the team....

Take care....


Except people on this board and other have advocated ditching Chouinard for Reid etc.

He has to beat out those people you've mentioned I agree. But he didn't even come close. He did not have a good camp...he had a decent camp but was far from spectacular and far from being a dominant player at any time in camp or during a preseason game. In short he didn't show much of anything other than he can skate fast.

He failed to stick around even to the the end of camp. He wasn't the last tough cut or anything. He was cut with a handful of other players that probably won't see significant time in the NHL in the near future. His camp did nothing to suggest that the canucks could move someone and have him jump in and the team wouldn't miss a beat. The only thing camp did was prove how far away the likes of Reid or Bouck are from challenging even Alexander Burrows for a spot on the team let alone Cooke or Kesler.

It still is funny to me hwo the only people to talk Reid up since main camp started are people on message boards. The coaching staff and management sure haven't.
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Postby rikster » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:22 am

The coaching staff and management sure haven't.


Have you listened to or watched any of the pre season games?...

Reid and Rypien have been singled out for their good play at times during the camp and pre season games while Chounard has been singled out for his poor play....

I can understand you wanting to make a case for keeping Chounard based on his previous NHL play, but to introduce this camp to back your argument for Chounard and against Reid is goofy...

Take care....
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Postby tantalum » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:56 am

rikster wrote:Have you listened to or watched any of the pre season games?...


Yes and the same thing was heard again and again. Reid sure is fast but he ultimately doesn't accomplish a darn thing. Especially when the better players in the opposition lineup started playing.

Rypien is fine. Rypien made the team and when he heals he'll probably be called up.

And yes Chouinard was singled out for his poor play. However, if you listened to the rest of the comments you would know that they weren't going to be worried untill atleast the 20 game mark of the regular season if his play hadn't picked up. And in the last two (before he got hurt in the last game) his play did pick up. Perhpas he was singled out because he was a vet of nearly 300 games and more was expected? unlike Reid.

The fact is Reid did not actually outplay anyone for a job and he isn't suited for a role in the bottom 6. He didn't outplay Burrows, Kesler, Cooke (who wasn't good), or Rypien and for the role not even Santala. It's why he didn't even stick around to last cuts. It's why he will in all likelihood not be an NHL player on any decent team.

There is nothing goofy about what I said. There was no praise for Reid his last few exhibition games. And the reality was he was sent down with a bunch of other players who also didn't do much during the preseason. Facts and actions speak much louder than anything. And the FACT Reid didn't make it to the last cuts tells you exactly what the coaching staff though of his play.
Last edited by tantalum on Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MarkMM » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:02 am

tantalum wrote:
MarkMM wrote: And as a salary dump move, I wouldn't really be looking for anything back, Santala or Rypien/Reid would do just fine on the fourth line, a warm body would eat up cap space, so a pick or prospect would be fine by me, we're looking to add depth anyway to the prospect system.


but do you really know that? There is a reason Chouinard got the deal he did and a deal other teams would have offered. There is a reason Chouinard has 278 games of regular season NHL experience while Reid has 10 and Santala has 33. The odds are and histroy suggests that Chouinard is the better player.

NOw if the first three lines are clicking and forcing AVs hand to sit the fourth line a bit more maybe you look at moving him and going for a cheaper option. But if the canucks need a player in that role that can play 12 important minutes a night you have to give the edge to Chouinard at this point, despite the bad camp.


No, that's why I'm saying I'm reserving judgement till aftter the next few games, but what I am saying is that if he becomes a guy who plays on the fourth line, even if using Santala or someone else who's cheaper on the fourth line is a step down, there is no way around the fact that we need to cut costs somewhere. If Bourdon gets sent down, problem solved. If not, and if Chouinard is being paid $1.1 million for the fourth line on a team that needs cap room, like MCP said, it'll be between Chouinard and Cooke most likely, unless we go with a roster of 21 players (not out of the question).

Both Chouinard and Cooke are defensively responsible, Chouinard is bigger with face-off ability, the question becomes whether or not Cooke has upside or not, if protecting offensive ability is our priority (and I think it will be), and if Cooke shows he has decent upside (I think that as well), then we might have to unload Chouinard.

The thing is, I don't think he's a bad player, or necessarily overpaid, but my point is that he might be unaffordable for the role we'll end up using him due to our cap situation, he may be good, he may be worth his price, but it might not be affordable (difference between value and affordability) for the Canucks. He could very well make sense for another team, and if we're only asking for a salary dump, with pick/prospect back in return, I don't see a problem with getting a trade partner.
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Postby tantalum » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:48 am

I think Cooke is the one with the target. AV fired a pretty big warning shot the other day about his penalty being absolutely unacceptable in the regular season. Cooke has to has to provide spark, has to stay out of the penalty box, and above all has to produce beyond a 30 point player. If he isn't producing then I can easily see Cooke being moved in favour of bringing Rypien in...Rypien can provide that same spark and stay out of the box and not provide offence but for much cheaper. If Kesler plays hard and has good development early, Morrison may develop a big target.

Hey but I do agree that if all the other guys are ticking and Nonis need to cut a bit of salary Chouinard is certainly a candidate. i just don't think it will happen all that soon.

Perhaps I'm pessimistic but I really wouldn't be surprised to see Cooke or Morrison falter and be an anchor on the team.
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Postby rikster » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:56 am

And the FACT Reid didn't make it to the last cuts tells you exactly what the coaching staff though of his play.


What Vigneault did say ...

he'll continue to evaluate both the Canucks and the Moose through the season with an eye to moving bodies around to keep the most competitive line-up on the ice.

"It's performance-based," said Vigneault. "If you want to stick around, you have to make sure you're playing well and that the team is winning. Those things go hand in hand."

Vigneault singled out players like Lee Goren, Jesse Schultz, Brandon Reid as scoring forwards who could step up, as well as defenders Yannick Tremblay and Nathan McIver.


As for Chounard, Vigneault's thoughts...

"He's supposed to be a third- or fourth-line guy who can play at both ends of the rink, is very dependable defensively and because of his speed and skill should be able to chip in offensively," Vigneault said. "I think he's gotten better as camp has gone on, but he needs to do more. Right now, because of Chouinard's injury and [Rick] Rypien's injury, he is going to start as one of our 12 forwards. It's performance-based. If you want to stick around, then you have to make sure you are playing well and the team is winning. Both those things go hand in hand


As for the thinking that Chounard gets a 20 game mulligan, I disagree regardless of how he was obtained and what that might mean to future free agents...

As MarkMM said, with the team so close to the cap and with the management group emphatically claiming that this season is performance based, if Chounard struggles to start the season his role playing days in Vancouver might be very short...

Take care..
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Postby tantalum » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:04 pm

Well you can disagree all you want but Nonis said explcitly before the Calgary preseason game that they were not going to be concerned about Chouinard unless his play hadn't picked up by about the 20 game mark.
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Postby magnum44 » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:43 pm

Veteran guys like Chouinard have been around long enough to know that the preseason means absolute shit to guys with guaranteed contracts. It'd be nice for everyone to light it up, but in reality an NHL season is long and grueling and I'd prefer guys who can stay healthy and peak during the stretch run and POs. Keslers contract put us in a bind capwise but I don't think it necessitates trading anyone just yet. I think we go with what we got and worry about injuries if they hapen. If the team is out of contention then DN will be a deadline seller when he can the most value.
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Postby tantalum » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:50 pm

i said a few weeks ago that the only thing that really mattered for most veterans is that they show up to camp in shape. Everything else is a bonus. That isn't the case for players trying to scrape and claw their way up the depth chart. They better be in great shape and show up every drill, every practice, every shift and every game....and do something noteworthy.
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