Brian Burke's a Lucky Man in Anaheim

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Brian Burke's a Lucky Man in Anaheim

Postby DavidPratt_ » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:46 pm

I chuckle sometimes when I hear that Anaheim has a shot at going to the Stanley Cup finals this season. Not because I don't believe that (it's possible) but because Brian Burke walked into a situation where he has not one but TWO excellent goalies in Giguere and Bryzgalov. Funny enough, when Brian Burke joined the Ducks last season, he ALSO inherited a great group of prospects (Anaheim has been rated as one of the top 3 NHL franchises in terms of its prospects).

One of Vancouver's weaknesses the past five seasons has been a group of weak prospects and suspect goaltending (until Nonis acquired Luongo). Too bad Brian didn't do what he was fortunate enough to inherit in Anaheim.

Brian Burke: genius or very lucky guy in Anaheim?

You be the judge.

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Last edited by DavidPratt_ on Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JamesOwnzSam11 » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:57 pm

While he did walk into a good pool of prospects he created some of his own good luck.

Got Scott Niedermayer... was able to get Pronger....he is putting his stamp on this team.

Keep in mind you think he's the manager of the year for 05-06.
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Postby MarkMM » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:07 am

I guess the saying that being lucky is just when opportunity meets preparation, he was lucky but still did some astute (though not exactly death-defying brilliant) moves to capitalize on it. I give him more credit for taking the Canucks from a terrible team to a solid (though in the end, unfulfilling) team, than for what he's managed in Anaheim, but he deserves SOME credit, just no statues.
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Postby unikron » Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:55 am

Has anyone recently tackled the question of why we have had such a lack of talented prospects in our system. I can't help but think that it comes down to the talent evaluators (scouts). Short of this year with Grabner, all I seem to remember from watching past drafts are terms like safe pick, or steady player. Terms used by the announcers to describe the player that the Canucks just took. And then, maybe it's just me, our Head Scout (Delorme) is clipped saying, "we feel" or "we think."

And that's the crux for me.

Just how good are our scouts thoughts and feelings about players?

I think this has created our goalie graveyard (hot phrase of the moment) persona too. Aren't the teams talent evaluators the ones who recommend the team go after a certain player? Are our scouts missing the flaws in these goalies that won't allow them to succeed in such an intense market.

I'll accept that I think Luongo is an exception to what I have just written. There are players that you just can't screw up on (a wink and a nod to Mad Mike and to a lesser extent Iron Mike).

Just a late night prospect lament.
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Postby the Cunning Linguist » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:56 am

Well, I have to give him credit for learning from the mistakes of the past; he joined Vancouver when there was nowhere to go for the team but up; conversely, I'm sure that he weighed his options before settling on Anaheim and I'm sure he reviewed the prospect cupboard there, the cap situation, and the authority he was being given and decided that that was the best situation for him and quickly dumped overpriced players (Sergei Federov being one) and acquiring terrific assets like Beauchemin in exchange. Oh and most of all, getting out of a hockey-mad market so he doesn't have to worry about the media piranhas that might be ready to pounce each time the team stumbles. Since he arrived, he signed the league's best defenceman (Nieds) and this summer, the league's second/third best defenceman (Pronger). All that and he still has about $5M of cap room to pick up another 1 or 2 impact players... What's not to like?

As much as I'd love to draw a seven figure salary to be an NHL GM, I can't say that any of them are just lucky; I think if they're smart, they'll look at the situation and judge what their chances of success are.
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Postby Linden Is God » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:02 am

A little from column A, a little from column B
GO CANUCKS GO !!!

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Postby Fred » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:11 am

unikron wrote:Has anyone recently tackled the question of why we have had such a lack of talented prospects in our system. I can't help but think that it comes down to the talent evaluators (scouts). Short of this year with Grabner, all I seem to remember from watching past drafts are terms like safe pick, or steady player.
And that's the crux for me.
.


Lets see Delorme has taken just Grabner ??

How about
Schneider
Umberger ( not Delormes fault they basicall let him go)
Kesler
Beudoin &
Koltsov ( 2nd round)

As well as Schultz (freeagents amateur pick) Beiska Hason and Mason plus of course Ellis Plante, and Vincent

Delrmoe has had double the success maybe 4 time the success Penney ever di
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Postby Grizzly » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:22 am

unikron wrote:Has anyone recently tackled the question of why we have had such a lack of talented prospects in our system. I can't help but think that it comes down to the talent evaluators (scouts). Short of this year with Grabner, all I seem to remember from watching past drafts are terms like safe pick, or steady player.
And that's the crux for me.
.


Good comment Unikron ... the topic of previous Canuck picks, scouting abilities and our years of picks not living up to expectations probably deserves its own thread ... I was actually kind of adhering to that on the "Prospects" thread.

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Postby MarkMM » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:44 am

Fred wrote:
unikron wrote:Has anyone recently tackled the question of why we have had such a lack of talented prospects in our system. I can't help but think that it comes down to the talent evaluators (scouts). Short of this year with Grabner, all I seem to remember from watching past drafts are terms like safe pick, or steady player.
And that's the crux for me.
.


Lets see Delorme has taken just Grabner ??

How about
Schneider
Umberger ( not Delormes fault they basicall let him go)
Kesler
Beudoin &
Koltsov ( 2nd round)

As well as Schultz (freeagents amateur pick) Beiska Hason and Mason plus of course Ellis Plante, and Vincent

Delrmoe has had double the success maybe 4 time the success Penney ever di


I think management had more to do with the "safe" picks than necessarily the scouts, though I do think Delorme is better than Penney by quite a bit. I may be wrong, but it seems Burke was the one in charge when safe picks like Smith and then Kesler were made (as good as Kesler was, he was projected at the time and maybe even still now as an "elite third-liner", and we passed up guys with better upsides though higher risks like Jeff Tambelini), but Nonis has been more to swing for the fences. Bourdon was idiot-proof, lucking out at top ten in that deep of a draft would have required Charles Wang to screw it up, with the advice of Bobby Clarke...but what shows to me that we have good scouts is not necessarily the first picks, but the picks like Edler and Rahimi, guys basically unheard of but who we now find have significant potential. Our scouts must have been doing their homework to find such hidden gems and they clearly evaluated things well, but it took management guts to make such long shots. Grabner seems to be another one that Nonis made that I can't see Burke doing.
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Postby Grizzly » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:59 am

but what shows to me that we have good scouts is not necessarily the first picks, but the picks like Edler and Rahimi, guys basically unheard of but who we now find have significant potential. Our scouts must have been doing their homework to find such hidden gems and they clearly evaluated things well, but it took management guts to make such long shots. Grabner seems to be another one that Nonis made that I can't see Burke doing.


Well MM I hope you are right and we can see guys like Edler and Rahimi come through with their significant potential to play an important role on our team. To date it has always seemed our guys with the significant potential either leave or just don't develop. ie Holden, Druken, Umberger, FFedorov etc.

IMO our scouts will be considered "good" when they do pull out these gems and they actually play and significantly contribute to the team. Do we count the idiot-proof no brainer picks ??? I guess we can... but to me its those later round picks that pop out of nowhere and make an impact that shows the true value of our scouts ability.

Another point to keep in mind is that with a salary cap in place, teams can't necessarily "buy" their teams so a teams success is going to be tied into how well scouts consistently pick these gems out to ensure the teams depth is consistently maintained ... as players mature and eventually become "overpriced" we have that line of youngsters always coming up.

My thoughts anyways ...

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Postby MarkMM » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:15 pm

Grizzly wrote:
but what shows to me that we have good scouts is not necessarily the first picks, but the picks like Edler and Rahimi, guys basically unheard of but who we now find have significant potential. Our scouts must have been doing their homework to find such hidden gems and they clearly evaluated things well, but it took management guts to make such long shots. Grabner seems to be another one that Nonis made that I can't see Burke doing.


Well MM I hope you are right and we can see guys like Edler and Rahimi come through with their significant potential to play an important role on our team. To date it has always seemed our guys with the significant potential either leave or just don't develop. ie Holden, Druken, Umberger, FFedorov etc.

IMO our scouts will be considered "good" when they do pull out these gems and they actually play and significantly contribute to the team. Do we count the idiot-proof no brainer picks ??? I guess we can... but to me its those later round picks that pop out of nowhere and make an impact that shows the true value of our scouts ability.

Another point to keep in mind is that with a salary cap in place, teams can't necessarily "buy" their teams so a teams success is going to be tied into how well scouts consistently pick these gems out to ensure the teams depth is consistently maintained ... as players mature and eventually become "overpriced" we have that line of youngsters always coming up.

My thoughts anyways ...

Grizz


Yeah, I might be eating my words a couple years from now :blush: but when we traded up and picked Edler, it was almost comical how no one had a clue of who he was. But once we brought him over to Kelowna, teams around the league were kicking themselves (based on comments made of his play and from various commentators), same story with Rahimi.

Haha, I actually don't give too much credit to the no-brainer picks like Bourdon, though I did hold it against Burke when we picked up Kesler and passed up others (his strong play has tempered my disappointment somewhat), and if Grabner pans out, Nonis should get credit for reaching like that.
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Postby Fred » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:21 pm

Didn't Hansen a 9th round pick score last night ?. Mason was a 2nd round was he not as were Vincent and Ellis Plante. Koltsov is a 2nd round pick. You can't blame the the scout if the players don't sign He just identifies the talent
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Postby unikron » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:47 pm

Grizzly Said:
IMO our scouts will be considered "good" when they do pull out these gems and they actually play and significantly contribute to the team.

This is kind of what I was getting at in talking about our scouting. I'm not singling out Delorme. I'm using him as a touchstone, being that he is head scout, to look more broadly at the talent of all our scouts.

Fred Said:
How about
Schneider
Umberger ( not Delormes fault they basicall let him go)
Kesler
Beudoin &
Koltsov ( 2nd round)

As well as Schultz (freeagents amateur pick) Beiska Hason and Mason plus of course Ellis Plante, and Vincent

Of those players, only Kesler, Umberger, and Bieksa ( and I think that has more to do with the desire of the man, than the vision of the scout) are legit NHLers right now. And we essentially walked away from Umberger (IMHO) because we didn't feel he was worth what he was demanding. I'm not trying to argue a dollar figure here, only that someone must have told Burke that this player isn't worth what he is asking for. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was Burke who decided that HE wasn't going to pay regardless of advice of he talent evaluators.
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Postby the Cunning Linguist » Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:43 pm

MarkMM wrote:Yeah, I might be eating my words a couple years from now :blush: but when we traded up and picked Edler, it was almost comical how no one had a clue of who he was. But once we brought him over to Kelowna, teams around the league were kicking themselves (based on comments made of his play and from various commentators), same story with Rahimi.


I understand that Thomas Gradin, Vancouver's European scout, had a big hand in drafting Rahimi, Edler, Hansen, and perhaps some of Van's Russian prospects too. Don't know if Grading was around during the Burke reign...
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Postby MarkMM » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:27 pm

the Cunning Linguist wrote:
MarkMM wrote:Yeah, I might be eating my words a couple years from now :blush: but when we traded up and picked Edler, it was almost comical how no one had a clue of who he was. But once we brought him over to Kelowna, teams around the league were kicking themselves (based on comments made of his play and from various commentators), same story with Rahimi.


I understand that Thomas Gradin, Vancouver's European scout, had a big hand in drafting Rahimi, Edler, Hansen, and perhaps some of Van's Russian prospects too. Don't know if Grading was around during the Burke reign...


Hmm, he should get a generous bonus if even a couple of these guys pan out, keeping Gradin should be a top priority.
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