Goaltending

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Hockey Widow
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Re: Goaltending

Post by Hockey Widow » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:20 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 pm
Per wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:01 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:06 pm
For now, though, Markstrom's numbers still say he's at least an average NHL goaltender, i.e. one of the twenty best in the entire world. I suspect the fact that the last 3 goalies you saw a lot of were Luongo, Schneider, and Miller may be distorting your sense of what is reasonable to expect.
Exsactly.

And for all the crap Cloutier receives, I remember checking back in the day that his stats typically had him around 15th in the league, ie an average NHL starting goaltender.

Neither Cloutier, Markström or Nilsson is (or was) a Vezina candidate, but all three have shown themselves good enough to tend goal in the best hockey league there is, and do so at roughly the league average level.

Luongo, Schneider and Miller were better than that, but we cannot expect to always have one of the ten best goalies in a 30+ team league. It'd be nice to have it, but the question is if it would really be worth the extra cost and cap space during a rebuild.
None of them let in so many first shot goals. Markstrom is a backup goalie capable of giving you 20-30 games a year.

None of them has won a Cup either.
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Per
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Re: Goaltending

Post by Per » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 am

Reefer2 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 pm
None of them let in so many first shot goals. Markstrom is a backup goalie capable of giving you 20-30 games a year.
I haven't come across that particular statistic.

If you look at win percentage, ie won games divided by games played, Luongo, Schneider and Cloutier stand out while Markström and Nilsson do not look too good:

Rk Player............ GP. W.. W%
1 Roberto Luongo. 448 252 56,3%
2 Cory Schneider..... 98 55 56,1%
3 Dan Cloutier..... 208 109 52,4%
4 Kay Whitmore..... 74 36 48,6%
5 Alex Auld........... 81 39 48,1%
6 Bob Essensa....... 39 18 46,2%
7 Andrew Raycroft... 21 9 42,9%
8 Charlie Hodge..... 35 15 42,9%
9 Ryan Miller........ 150 64 42,7%
10 Eddie Lack......... 82 34 41,5%
11 Peter Skudra....... 46 19 41,3%
12 Kirk McLean..... 516 211 40,9%
13 John Garrett...... 56 22 39,3%
14 Gary Smith....... 188 72 38,3%
15 Johan Hedberg..... 21 8 38,1%
16 Jacob Markstrom. 129 49 38,0%
17 Felix Potvin......... 69 26 37,7%
18 Gary Bromley....... 73 25 34,2%
19 Arturs Irbe.......... 41 14 34,1%
20 Richard Brodeur. 377 126 33,4%
21 Corey Hirsch..... 101 32 31,7%
22 Glen Hanlon...... 136 43 31,6%
23 Curtis Sanford..... 35 11 31,4%
24 Anders Nilsson..... 29 9 31,0%
25 Troy Gamble...... 72 22 30,6%

But imho wins is more of a team statistic even if it is widely used as a goalie stat.
I think saves percentage is a more neutral assessment of a goalie, even if it may give a slight disadvantage to goalies on stellar teams that face so few shots that they grow cold in between them. In this statistic Markström and Nilsson look quite OK. This is the all time top ten for Vancouver:

Rk Player.......... Sv%
1 Cory Schneider.. 0,927
2 Roberto Luongo. 0,919
3 Eddie Lack....... 0,917
4 Ryan Miller....... 0,914
5 Andrew Raycroft 0,911
6 Jacob Markstrom 0,910
7 Arturs Irbe....... 0,907
8 Alex Auld........ 0,907
9 Dan Cloutier..... 0,906
10 Anders Nilsson. 0,904

What this basically says is that when facing 100 shots, Schneider would let in 7, Luongo 8 and Markström 9.
There is a difference, but it's not as huge as some of you would make it seem.

Once again, Marky Mark and Nilsson are not superstar goalies, but they are sort of league average goalies.
It is not our weakest spot. I maintain that it is the blue line that is of greatest concern, and it's really no use taking on the cost of a top ten or even top three goalie if you are going to play them behind the crap defence we muster at the moment.

Solve the blue line problem first, then address the goalie issue.
(Well, if it hasn't already been done with the goalie prospects we have in the system...)
Last edited by Per on Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Carlyee
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Re: Goaltending

Post by Carlyee » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:37 am

Per wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 am
Reefer2 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 pm
None of them let in so many first shot goals. Markstrom is a backup goalie capable of giving you 20-30 games a year.
Solve the blue line problem first, then address the goalie issue.
(Well, if it hasn't already been done with the goalie prospects we have in the system...)
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Our weak link is D. There's no reason Pouliot should be in the NHL. Anytime he is on the ice I fully expect the other team to score.

But I have a soft spot for EG so I'm probably not the best one to judge.

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Re: Goaltending

Post by ESQ » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:10 am

Obviously, the solution is to buy-low on Luongo.

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Strangelove
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Re: Goaltending

Post by Strangelove » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:46 pm

ESQ wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:10 am
Obviously, the solution is to buy-low on Luongo.
:idea:

I’ll talk to his wife…
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Re: Goaltending

Post by ESQ » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm

Have a word with one of his doctors while you're at it, after Hossa's medical retirement I'd start with his dermatologist :lol:

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Strangelove
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Re: Goaltending

Post by Strangelove » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:52 pm

Okay, hopefully his wife doesn't believe the dermatologist but the league does...
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Re: Goaltending

Post by Meds » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:46 am

Per wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 am
Reefer2 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 pm
None of them let in so many first shot goals. Markstrom is a backup goalie capable of giving you 20-30 games a year.
I haven't come across that particular statistic.

If you look at win percentage, ie won games divided by games played, Luongo, Schneider and Cloutier stand out while Markström and Nilsson do not look too good:

Rk Player............ GP. W.. W%
1 Roberto Luongo. 448 252 56,3%
2 Cory Schneider..... 98 55 56,1%
3 Dan Cloutier..... 208 109 52,4%
4 Kay Whitmore..... 74 36 48,6%
5 Alex Auld........... 81 39 48,1%
6 Bob Essensa....... 39 18 46,2%
7 Andrew Raycroft... 21 9 42,9%
8 Charlie Hodge..... 35 15 42,9%
9 Ryan Miller........ 150 64 42,7%
10 Eddie Lack......... 82 34 41,5%
11 Peter Skudra....... 46 19 41,3%
12 Kirk McLean..... 516 211 40,9%
13 John Garrett...... 56 22 39,3%
14 Gary Smith....... 188 72 38,3%
15 Johan Hedberg..... 21 8 38,1%
16 Jacob Markstrom. 129 49 38,0%
17 Felix Potvin......... 69 26 37,7%
18 Gary Bromley....... 73 25 34,2%
19 Arturs Irbe.......... 41 14 34,1%
20 Richard Brodeur. 377 126 33,4%
21 Corey Hirsch..... 101 32 31,7%
22 Glen Hanlon...... 136 43 31,6%
23 Curtis Sanford..... 35 11 31,4%
24 Anders Nilsson..... 29 9 31,0%
25 Troy Gamble...... 72 22 30,6%

But imho wins is more of a team statistic even if it is widely used as a goalie stat.
I think saves percentage is a more neutral assessment of a goalie, even if it may give a slight disadvantage to goalies on stellar teams that face so few shots that they grow cold in between them. In this statistic Markström and Nilsson look quite OK. This is the all time top ten for Vancouver:

Rk Player.......... Sv%
1 Cory Schneider.. 0,927
2 Roberto Luongo. 0,919
3 Eddie Lack....... 0,917
4 Ryan Miller....... 0,914
5 Andrew Raycroft 0,911
6 Jacob Markstrom 0,910
7 Arturs Irbe....... 0,907
8 Alex Auld........ 0,907
9 Dan Cloutier..... 0,906
10 Anders Nilsson. 0,904

What this basically says is that when facing 100 shots, Schneider would let in 7, Luongo 8 and Markström 9.
There is a difference, but it's not as huge as some of you would make it seem.

Once again, Marky Mark and Nilsson are not superstar goalies, but they are sort of league average goalies.
It is not our weakest spot. I maintain that it is the blue line that is of greatest concern, and it's really no use taking on the cost of a top ten or even top three goalie if you are going to play them behind the crap defence we muster at the moment.

Solve the blue line problem first, then address the goalie issue.
(Well, if it hasn't already been done with the goalie prospects we have in the system...)
With the exception of Irbe, all of those goalies played in the modern era of butterfly/hybrid positioning, regular goaltending coaches, team defensive systems, and over-sized equipment. It’s no surprise that our all time top 10 is a who’s who of goaltenders who played for the Canucks in the last 10-15 years. In fact only Auld, Clouts, and Irbe, played for the Canucks before the 2004 lockout. Ironically only Clouts and Irbe played for us during the dead puck era.

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Re: Goaltending

Post by Madcombinepilot » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:28 am

Nilsson's net for the next few games, or Marky slide back in tonight?
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