2019 UFA

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Lancer
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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Lancer » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:25 pm

People bitch and moan about the FA contracts of this summer, but given the space Benning had (and still largely has) and where this team is at in its rebuild, it’s no big deal. Benning is not at a point where he has to ask anybody to take ‘team discounts’ and squeeze contracts under the cap to contend. By the time that becomes a problem, Beagle, Sutter and Eriksson will be gone or more easily disposable.

Complain about the roster space and ice time they’ll take up and I’ll listen, but if it gives the likes of Lind, Dahlen, Gadjovich and Palmu a chance to cook in the minors and come out better-positioned to contribute in the next season or two while giving Benning better drafting odds to build that contender, I’ll watch. Problem is Horvat and Jake aren’t getting younger.
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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:45 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:19 pm
From the worst prospect pool to one of the very best under Jimmy's watch there Cliffy.
A good prospect pool is like a bunch of good sales leads: nice to have, but not actually worth anything until you seal the deal.
RoyalDude wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:34 pm
Reefer2 wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:05 pm
From almost winning the cup to not even coming close to making the playoffs.
Stumped

Game
Set
Match
It seems we agree: it would have been embarrassing for Benning if he had not been able to assemble a much better (looking) prospect pool than Gillis, given his vastly better average draft position.

And since when is drafting better than Gillis supposed to be a standard of excellence?
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:28 pm
Seriously?
Yes.
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:28 pm
Canucks were 3 seasons removed from "almost winning the cup" when Jimmy arrived.
Yes. After almost winning the Cup, they drafted in the second to last position. The season after that, they also finished first overall, and again their draft position was poor (26th). The Canucks' own draft position in the third season after (2013) was 24th. Fortunately, Gillis traded for a better spot, and I think you will agree that he got reasonable value at the draft position. The next season you mention below.
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:28 pm
Canucks missed the playoffs the season before Jimmy arrived.
Yes, and thereby provided a rookie GM with a 6th overall draft pick. While the book is by no means written on his career, or even potential, what do you think of his performance so far, relative to his draft position? Can you think of no other players drafted after him who have done better?

Are you sure you wouldn't rather table this discussion until enough of Benning's draft picks have played enough NHL games that we can make reasoned assertions about whether they have out-performed, or under-performed, their draft positions? This would probably work to your advantage, since it appears (and yes, we all hope it pans out) that Benning's more recent draft picks have been better.
Last edited by Ronning's Ghost on Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:55 pm

Lancer wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:25 pm
Problem is Horvat and Jake aren’t getting younger.
That's one of the problems.

A bigger problem is that the first ever draft pick (at 6th overall) of alleged great drafter Jim Benning has yet to convince me that he is a key component of the championship dynasty that Royal Dude promised.

Is anyone else convinced? Say it now, and when he picks up some hardware in June, you can say you saw it first.

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by micky107 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:00 am




Oh, Sorry RG! You meant draft position #6

Oops, my mistake.
"evolution"

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:46 am

micky107 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:00 am
Oh, Sorry RG! You meant draft position #6

Oops, my mistake.
No problem. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees Boeser was a great selection at #23.

Like I said to Doc, are you sure you want to try to assess Benning's drafting ability based on the draft picks who have already played NHL games, or would you rather wait until Pettersson and Hughes have had a chance to bring up the average?
Last edited by Ronning's Ghost on Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Reefer2 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:02 am

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:46 am
micky107 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:00 am
Oh, Sorry RG! You meant draft position #6

Oops, my mistake.
No problem. I'm pretty sure everyone agree Boeser was a great selection at #23.

Like I said to Doc, are you sure you want to try to assess Benning's drafting ability based on the draft picks who have already played NHL games, or would you rather wait until Pettersson and Hughes have had a chance to bring up the average?
He is working on it, you know he is.

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Cherry Picker » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:24 am

Most assessments of the Canucks prospect depth is in the top three of the league. Benning is doing a good job drafting according to most of the media I’ve heard.
We are all Jim Benning.

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:56 pm

Cherry Picker wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:24 am
Most assessments of the Canucks prospect depth is in the top three of the league. Benning is doing a good job drafting according to most of the media I’ve heard.
OK, once more:

a) prospects are potential NHL players; we don't know if they're any good until they actually become NHL players. Since a bunch of them are close to achieving that, it seems more reasonable to me to talk about this after they have.

b) It makes sense that external observers would think highly of the Canucks' prospects, since they are composed largely of high draft picks. That is to say, Benning (sensibly) chose players that many other hockey observers thought would be good NHL players, too, with the many high draft picks he enjoyed.

The measure of a GM's drafting ability is not the quality of the prospect pool he drafts, it is how well the players he drafts perform a) in the NHL and b) relative to their respective draft positions. To pick a recent, simple example, at the 2018 NHL draft, Sabres GM Jason Botterill selected Rasmus Dahlin. Most people think it was a pretty good pick. It was not evidence that Botterill is good at drafting.

To be clear, I am not saying Jim Benning is not good at drafting. He might be. I hope he is. I hope he has been getting better with practice. I'm saying it is premature to declare Jim Benning good at drafting, based on the evidence we have before the start of the 2018-2019 NHL season.

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by micky107 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:29 pm

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/02/01/time ... still-bad/

Don't be bitter.
C'mon, climb on board. 8-)
"evolution"

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Strangelove
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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Strangelove » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:45 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:19 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:04 pm
Madcombinepilot wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:26 am
JB is... a great drafter...
Maybe ! Sure hope so !

I wouldn't say that, as of today, there is much evidence from players who have played in the NHL to support that contention, though. I hope there is abundant evidence by the end of the 2018-2019 season.
From the worst prospect pool to one of the very best under Jimmy's watch there Cliffy.
A good prospect pool is like a bunch of good sales leads: nice to have, but not actually worth anything until you seal the deal.
I was contradicting your assertion that there is not "much evidence that JB is "a great drafter"

Whether you like it or not, going from the bottom to the top in 4 years in that area is evidence of dat dere.

(you don't get to set the parameters on what constitutes good drafting evidence Cliffy)

(in fact most of the hockey world would disagree with you on this)

Ass for you going on and on and on about drafting position being key, well the hockey world has taken this into account.

When in their respective draft years from 2014-17 were these guys selected:

Demko, Groot, Forsling, Gaudette, Brisebois, Lockwood, Lind, Gadjovich, Dipietro.

They would all be drafted higher in any sensible redraft.

Add to that the Boeser and Pettersson steals = Plenty of evidence.

Pettersson/Hughes haven't played a game in the NHL... but their trade value is huge, yeahno they're not like "good sales leads". :lol:

For example, each could be traded as the centrepiece in a deal for a proven NHL star at this point.

Not giving Jimmy credit for his masterful drafting to date is more proof of a hidden agenda/dirty diaper...
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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm
I was contradicting your assertion that there is not "much evidence that JB is "a great drafter"

Whether you like it or not, going from the bottom to the top in 4 years in that area is evidence of dat dere.

(you don't get to set the parameters on what constitutes good drafting evidence Cliffy)
But of course, you do.

Ever notice how the weather and financial market forecasts always turn out exactly the way the experts predict (based on far more data and more comprehensive analysis)? Yeah, me neither.

Fine. It's not enough evidence to convince me.
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm

When in their respective draft years from 2014-17 were these guys selected:

Demko, Groot, Forsling, Gaudette, Brisebois, Lockwood, Lind, Gadjovich, Dipietro.

They would all be drafted higher in any sensible redraft.
Virtanen, McCann, Juolevi...
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm

Pettersson/Hughes haven't played a game in the NHL... but their trade value is huge, yeahno they're not like "good sales leads". :lol:

For example, each could be traded as the centrepiece in a deal for a proven NHL star at this point.
And how would you prove such an assertion?
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm
Not giving Jimmy credit for his masterful drafting to date is more proof of a hidden agenda/dirty diaper...
You already noted in another thread that I was willing to give Benning credit for a sensible plan where I could see the sense of it. This strikes me of evidence against any particular agenda on my part.

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Strangelove » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:10 pm

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Fine. It's not enough evidence to convince me.
I look forward to the inevitable day when you are completely convinced Cliffy. :D

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Virtanen, McCann, Juolevi...
For all we know they could all turn out to be stars.

Hmmm... who was it that was talking about premature judgments lately....

And hey, many Benning Bashers heap praise on McCann already! :mrgreen:

I forgot to answer your question on Virtanen btw...

YES I believe he will be come a great top-6 forward who offers a nice blend of size, speed, grit, and goals.

No reason to doubt Juolevi at this point...

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm
Pettersson/Hughes could be traded as the centrepiece in a deal for a proven NHL star at this point.
And how would you prove such an assertion?
I'd play the Common Sense card.

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm
Not giving Jimmy credit for his masterful drafting to date is more proof of a hidden agenda/dirty diaper...
You already noted in another thread that I was willing to give Benning credit for a sensible plan where I could see the sense of it. This strikes me of evidence against any particular agenda on my part.
Isn't that the post that was heavily redacted? :wink:

http://www.canuckscorner.com/forums/vie ... 25#p312625
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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:31 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:10 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Fine. It's not enough evidence to convince me.
I look forward to the inevitable day when you are completely convinced Cliffy. :D
Me, too. I'm prepared to throw caution to the wind on this one and declare Benning's drafting genius after only the second of the Stanley Cup wins in Royal Dude's promised championship dynasty.
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:10 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Virtanen, McCann, Juolevi...
For all we know they could all turn out to be stars.

Hmmm... who was it that was talking about premature judgments lately....
Yes, they could be. And that would be great, but the comment was made in the context of where players would be taken in a redraft, based on what we know now, of the years in which they were drafted. Those players would fall.
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm
Not giving Jimmy credit for his masterful drafting to date is more proof of a hidden agenda/dirty diaper...
You already noted in another thread that I was willing to give Benning credit for a sensible plan where I could see the sense of it. This strikes me of evidence against any particular agenda on my part.
Isn't that the post that was heavily redacted? :wink:
Yes, it was, but you mostly just removed the limitations and qualifiers.

Yes, I know the winky emoticon means just kidding, but I have this...thing...for complete answers.

By the way, why did the font change?

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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Strangelove » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:46 pm

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:31 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:10 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:15 pm
Fine. It's not enough evidence to convince me.
I look forward to the inevitable day when you are completely convinced Cliffy. :D
Me, too. I'm prepared to throw caution to the wind on this one and declare Benning's drafting genius after only the second of the Stanley Cup wins in Royal Dude's promised championship dynasty.
LOL c'mon I know it's been a rough time in Canuckdom for a while forever, but trust me:

NOW is the time to adopt the "Ya Gotta Believe" mentality buddy! :thumbs:

Come on, get on the train, you'll be so much happier and what do you have to lose?

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:31 pm
Yes, they could be. And that would be great, but the comment was made in the context of where players would be taken in a redraft, based on what we know now, of the years in which they were drafted. Those players would fall.
Oh yeah, okay fair enough Clifford...

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:31 pm
Yes, I know the winky emoticon means just kidding, but I have this...thing...for complete answers.
Yes we know, your ass is waterproof. :wink:

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:31 pm
By the way, why did the font change?
Wait... what?
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Re: 2019 UFA

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:32 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:46 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:31 pm
By the way, why did the font change?
Wait... what?
I don't know my font names, but for as long as I can remember, the main board has been in what looks like Ariel, and the drafts for posts have been in...something else (can't find a match in MS Word). Now the main board is in the same font as the drafts. No change for you? I view in Chrome.

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